DUST Search - Can you carebears stop complaining about AFK Farming

Keyser Soze VerbalKint wrote:

Buster Friently wrote:

He's referring to the forum vote that took place to determine how SP was allocated.

However, what he, and douches like him, fail to realize is that what was voted on was a system. Like a line at the grocery store, those who cut in line are still douches. It doesn't matter if the line is long or not.

Actually we gave feedback on it too, but noone wanted to press for a different option and was content in choosing one of the 5 given because at that point anything was better than daily cap.

After all this thing is temporary until a rollover system is implemented, or did everyone forget that.
Also i totally forgot about this but to everyone who told me to HTFU this is how MMO's work.

/me glares at Cosgar before he enters.

Remember the predecessor to the vote and the outcry that prompted it
https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=483247#post483247

So yea in essence Protoman did call it right carebears voted for it by demanding that CCP not cut the Gordian knot.
Yea so for everyone these last few days that wanted to shout me down that the Cap was CCP's brainchild and they would never entertain the idea of removing it since this game is an MMO and MMO is long and ardous please feel free to eat crow.


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Aighun Zumari Force Projection Caldari State 791	Posted - 2013.05.02 17:18:00 - [1] - Quote OP is confuse. Carebears are those players that never leave the safety of the MCC. Also, I don't think we voted on how SP per match was awarded. Only on how SP rewards after cap would be rewarded. Here I could be confused but AFK farming would still be possible no matter what option we had voted for. In the one vote we had here on the forums.
Aighun Zumari Force Projection Caldari State 797	Posted - 2013.05.03 00:42:00 - [2] - Quote Protoman Is God wrote: "Active SP" isn't really ACTIVE SP. In the current system, "active SP" is based upon passively participating in battle. I would agree here. I would go so far as to say it has nothing to do with participation. It is merely a measure of time spent between start of a battle you have joined and the end of that battle. With a set cap on SP earnings it doesn't even matter if you try to get the few extra points of SP you could earn from participating because it is just as easy to load another instant battle and AFK farm. Protoman Is God wrote: MMO's aren't supposed to be fair. The more time a player puts into the game the better they become. I also agree here. This is what I wanted Dust to be like. That is what I felt like I had to offer more than anything else. Time. I was all set to do some mindless grinding. This kind of character progression works well in MMOs where the goal of the game is progress to ever higher levels for your character's particular class. You know you have really achieved something when you can play a level 78 Dwarf Mage. But I started to pay some attention to EVE. EVE has passive skilling because the goal of the game is to play the game. It seems like the antithesis of a leveling MMO. Some players will build a battle ship because they want to fly a battle ship. Other players with more skill points might never build or fly a battleship. You don't fly a battleship because you have leveled your character to Level 23 Space Pilot, and therefore fly a battleship, and are therefore more powerful than all the Space pilots level 1 to 22 but less powerful than all space pilots level 24 and up. Seems like we spent so much time dicking around in Dust freaking out about whatever flavor of the week freakout was all about that we kind of took the active skilling for granted. But as OP pointed out, we don't have active skilling. Not really. We have 2 flavors of passive skilling. And a game that has all the hallmarks of a leveling MMO. Where the only reason players are logging in is to skill up. And if you can do it AFK then that is what you do. Jerks. And now we have a game that is going to launch in less than 2 weeks. With a finalized skill progression system that no one really knows anything about. I would like to see "active skilling" replaced by an entirely new system that was not in any way based on time spent in battle. It should be based entirely on war points. I would like to see a progressive SP earnings per warpoint system with a ladder bonus. A progressive system would give every action a weight. Take hacking for example. In Instant Battle all hackable installations, objectives, supply depots, and so on would be "Militia" variants and you would get (just to throw out a random number) 2 skill points for every warpoint. In Faction warfare NPC assets would be "Basic" variants and you would get 4 skill points for every war point. 6 skill points for war point in Planetary conquest. and so on. Same thing for players and their gear. The higher the total SP of the enemy killed, the higher the meta level of their gear, the more SP you would earn. CCP have enough data available so that they could set this rate at the level they thought best in order to meet their target for the amount of time they want character progression to take. They could keep the cap, or they could remove it. I really have no problem with no lifers grinding through all the content as quickly as they can. Because the SP and the gear isn't really the content. All you have to do is set the SP per WP earnings so passive skilling, and I mean true passive skilling, is competitive and offers players like me that have to go to work some SP to play around with at the end of the week. So what about the ladder bonus? Basically, if you kill a 15 million SP character in all protogear with a 550,000 SP character in militia gear you get a bonus. (edit* So your payout for that kill could be as high as 8 or 9 sp per warpoint in this hypothetical example.) The greater the gap, the more SP you get. If you bring your low SP character to Faction warfare you will get slightly better SP payouts for participating in that more advanced form of gameplay. Even for just hacking stuff. If you have a high SP level character you get the base progressive SP reward for killing players at your same level, you get a bonus for killing players with more SP, and you get slightly less that the base progressive SP per WP earning for hacking lower level objectives or killing low level players. So, big tuff 18 million SP character kills free fit new guy? They get only 1 or maybe even .75 SP per war points. This should solve the whole, "But what about the poor noobs?" problem. Should solve the AFK MCC farming problem. Should make participating in planetary conquest much more appealing. Big problem with this is it would only really work well if there was PVE available for all players along with the PVP we already have. I'll even do a TL;DR: Now that the game is launching it looks like we should have spent more time worrying about the whole skill progression thing. Boy I sure hope the new system doesn't suck. The two kinds of passive skilling we have now are not great. We should get active SP for actually, you know, doing stuff.
Aighun Zumari Force Projection Caldari State 798	Posted - 2013.05.03 01:53:00 - [3] - Quote Bones McGavins wrote: Heres the problem with a WP system. It becomes easier to get more WP the more SP you have. So you have a system that increases the gap quite a bit. The only fix to that would be a scaled system where you get a modifier for your WP based on your SP. If I have 1 mil SP, and the average SP in the match is 4mil, i get 4X SP for all my WP earned. A player with 8mil would get .5X SP for every WP earned. Thus, its still based on performance, but skewed so that new players arent left behind because they cant compete. This is bad as it punishes people for progressing their characters. Players should be rewarded for advancing their characters and spending time in game doing stuff.
Aighun Zumari Force Projection Caldari State 798	Posted - 2013.05.03 03:59:00 - [4] - Quote Keyser Soze VerbalKint wrote: Buster Friently wrote: He's referring to the forum vote that took place to determine how SP was allocated. However, what he, and douches like him, fail to realize is that what was voted on was a system. Like a line at the grocery store, those who cut in line are still douches. It doesn't matter if the line is long or not. Actually we gave feedback on it too, but noone wanted to press for a different option and was content in choosing one of the 5 given because at that point anything was better than daily cap. After all this thing is temporary until a rollover system is implemented, or did everyone forget that. Also i totally forgot about this but to everyone who told me to HTFU this is how MMO's work. /me glares at Cosgar before he enters. Remember the predecessor to the vote and the outcry that prompted it https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=483247#post483247 So yea in essence Protoman did call it right carebears voted for it by demanding that CCP not cut the Gordian knot. Yea so for everyone these last few days that wanted to shout me down that the Cap was CCP's brainchild and they would never entertain the idea of removing it since this game is an MMO and MMO is long and ardous please feel free to eat crow. In New Eden, time is money. So I have heard. The drama surrounding the SP earnings cap obscured a deeper, underlying problem. Active skilling isn't. But after revisiting that thread: There was a horrible, terrible daily cap. What CCP proposed was removal of the SP earnings cap completely. They were like, screw it. we'll just get rid of the damn thing. There was a great crying of, Noooo what are you thinking? Do not do this thing! SoTa PoP was like, guys, maybe we should have a vote? And Maken Tosch was like, I made a vote thread to prove a point. And a vote was had. Want to blame anyone blame SoTa. And Maken. But the whole argument was about how much SP you could gain, and how much time you had to spend to gain that SP. It was all about how removal of the cap would create greater and greater disparity between players. There was very little mention of what you might actually be doing in game while spending time earning SP. If CCP had gone ahead and cut the knot, as they described, that would have allowed players to endlessly AFK farm. There never would have been a time when they would not be able to AFK farm. It would have compounded the problem exponentially. Because it is a lot easier to AFK farm 24/7 than it is to grind 24/7. So basically the exact opposite of your claim, and the OP's original claim are true. Removal of the cap would have led to non-stop AFK. Also of note, a few Imperfects came out in favor of a weekly cap in that threadnought. And yeah, I did skim back through all 26 pages.
Aighun Zumari Force Projection Caldari State 802	Posted - 2013.05.03 12:45:00 - [5] - Quote Protoman Is God wrote: DJINN leukoplast wrote: Protoman Is God wrote: YOU VOTED FOR IT. You trying to tell us that if there was absolutely no cap at all, players wouldn't be AFK farming? LOL Give me a break. If we voted on a infinite cap, instead of players AFKing for the first 1-3 days after weekly cap reset, they would be doing it 7 days a week, 365 days a year. At which point, CCP would decide that passive SP 100% of the time would be the best choice. And all your worst nightmares would come true CCP originally proposed an uncapped system where 1 WP = 1 SP. SP would have been completely performance based. Meaning players would have been forced to play well in order to actually be rewarded in terms of SP. However though the carebears began to cry that this would create a "gap" and was somehow "unfair" to them. The community voted for AFK farming after being warned that this very problem would have developed as a result of the current SP system we have now. Their original proposal still had SP gain just for time in match. They were going to tweak the numbers to account for all day grinding with no cap, but they never indicated that they were going to make it entirely based on WP. CCP's proposal would have made AFK farming an even more tempting way to gain lots of SP. I skimmed through the entire threadnought and there really wasn't any discussion of making active skilling truly active. Never discussed. There were no warnings. May have come up in the vote thread but all of those arguments that I remember were about SP gain after cap. I could be totally wrong but I don't think anyone ever said that active skilling was a lie. And that the whole system needed to be changed from the ground up. We all just took it for granted. If there were wranings or suggestions to change the entire active skilling system from the ground up provide links. Or quotes. With links. I agree with you that active skilling should be active. Never really thought that much about it before. Just accepted the system as is. There would need to be PVE and better rewards for support roles for it to really work well. And we would still have to argue about whether or not we should have a cap, even then.
Aighun Zumari Force Projection Caldari State 802	Posted - 2013.05.03 12:58:00 - [6] - Quote Vrain Matari wrote: CCP stealth-added the passive component of match sp rewards all on their own. The more i think about it the more i'm sure this was never part of the conversation in the sp cap threadnought, and it was never brought up by CCP before the changes were made. It had absolutely nothing to do with the vote. If they had presented their misguided plans for passive match sp to the community we would have squashed it pronto. But for the conversation we're having here the punchline is passive sp rewards from matches has gotta go. I think it was there all along and nobody noticed. We just got some SP at the end of a match and everyone was like, yippy, got some SP, give me more!