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Django Quik
R.I.f.t
354
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Posted - 2013.04.21 14:44:00 -
[1] - Quote
Was just having a discussion on twitter about how restricting which corp members to go into the battles for Planetary Conquest in Uprising and wanted to put it out on here too.
Now, we at R.I.F.T are relatively small, so it's easy for us officers and the CEO to maintain close relationships with our playerbase. Setting ground rules and making understandings with players is easy when you talk to them all on a regular basis. What I'm interested in discussing here though, is how the bigger corps will try to handle this sort of thing?
With hundreds of active players, how will you control who goes into the corp battles? For instance you don't want your worst players jumping into your most important games and ruining everything. We won't be able to kick them from the battles just yet, so how will you guys deal with this to stop it happening? |
Conchuir Harte
Kinsho Swords Caldari State
1
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Posted - 2013.04.21 14:56:00 -
[2] - Quote
A straight forward answer. Ask your players not to just join any Corp Battles they see and first inquire if there is a spot available.
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Bendtner92
Imperfects Negative-Feedback
490
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Posted - 2013.04.21 15:02:00 -
[3] - Quote
Conchuir Harte wrote:A straight forward answer. Ask your players not to just join any Corp Battles they see and first inquire if there is a spot available. This. You shouldn't have people that do this in your corp anyway.
Although I do wonder why we aren't able to kick people out of PC matches. Someone sabotaging the match by not playing is one thing, but with FF on nothing is stopping that guy from sabotaging the match entirely.
Just seems strange that we can't kick those people from the match.
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Conchuir Harte
Kinsho Swords Caldari State
2
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Posted - 2013.04.21 15:23:00 -
[4] - Quote
Bendtner92 wrote: Although I do wonder why we aren't able to kick people out of PC matches. Someone sabotaging the match by not playing is one thing, but with FF on nothing is stopping that guy from sabotaging the match entirely.
Just seems strange that we can't kick those people from the match.
Why would your own Corp-mates be sabotaging your own team? Unless you are pulling in random ringers?
Sorry I'm ill informed on this so I must be missing something. |
Bendtner92
Imperfects Negative-Feedback
491
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Posted - 2013.04.21 15:29:00 -
[5] - Quote
Conchuir Harte wrote:Bendtner92 wrote: Although I do wonder why we aren't able to kick people out of PC matches. Someone sabotaging the match by not playing is one thing, but with FF on nothing is stopping that guy from sabotaging the match entirely.
Just seems strange that we can't kick those people from the match.
Why would your own Corp-mates be sabotaging your own team? Unless you are pulling in random ringers? Sorry I'm ill informed on this so I must be missing something. If someone is a spy or something?
Just doesn't make sense that we can't kick people from PC matches if someone decides to go against his team.
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Conchuir Harte
Kinsho Swords Caldari State
3
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Posted - 2013.04.21 15:31:00 -
[6] - Quote
Aw ok I get you now, I never considered a spy. |
Scheneighnay McBob
Bojo's School of the Trades
1265
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Posted - 2013.04.21 15:32:00 -
[7] - Quote
To be honest, I don't think that will be a problem. Should be enough districts to go around. |
Orin the Freak
Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz Noir. Mercenary Group
406
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Posted - 2013.04.21 15:35:00 -
[8] - Quote
Conchuir Harte wrote:Aw ok I get you now, I never considered a spy.
This is the reason you see so many corps losing hundreds of millions of ISK.
and it will never change. |
Conchuir Harte
Kinsho Swords Caldari State
3
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Posted - 2013.04.21 15:40:00 -
[9] - Quote
Orin the Freak wrote:Conchuir Harte wrote:Aw ok I get you now, I never considered a spy. This is the reason you see so many corps losing hundreds of millions of ISK. and it will never change.
lol Thank god I'm not in charge of a corp so!
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Mister Porter
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY
10
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Posted - 2013.04.21 16:31:00 -
[10] - Quote
We need either a boot player from the match function or an invite type feature so people cannot just randomly join a corp match uninvited.
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Illuminaughty-696
Omega Risk Control Services
254
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Posted - 2013.04.21 16:44:00 -
[11] - Quote
This is absolutely needed.
I envision a rank/authority system for corp leaders wherein they can assign powers to their members. Sergeants, or some such, who would have the ability to kick people out of matches.
Further, PC matches should have a toggle that can be activated by leadership when they set the match up allowing or disallowing people to join -- from allowing randoms all the way up to only allowing the aforementioned sergeants to queue up (such that others would have to be in a squad led by a sergeant).
Haven't put a lot of thought into this, just brainstorming, but yeah. |
ReGnUM Public Relations
Imperfects Public Relations
158
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Posted - 2013.04.21 16:46:00 -
[12] - Quote
Scheneighnay McBob wrote:To be honest, I don't think that will be a problem. Should be enough districts to go around.
not for your corp |
Scheneighnay McBob
Bojo's School of the Trades
1266
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Posted - 2013.04.21 17:07:00 -
[13] - Quote
ReGnUM Public Relations wrote:Scheneighnay McBob wrote:To be honest, I don't think that will be a problem. Should be enough districts to go around. not for your corp Logicfail |
Iron Wolf Saber
BetaMax. CRONOS.
3603
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Posted - 2013.04.21 17:09:00 -
[14] - Quote
Think of it this way, a WoW raiding guild can only send 10 people though the raid every week, but they have 20 members not enough for the 25 mans.
50% of the corp is going to have to sit on the bench and you dont want the worst 50% when its an attempt at a heroic run. |
Django Quik
R.I.f.t
357
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Posted - 2013.04.21 17:22:00 -
[15] - Quote
Just to clarify, I'm not asking for advice on this - like I said, my corp is pretty solid and we know all our players well enough to know we won't have a problem. I'm just interested in finding out how other corps, particularly the large ones, plan to handle this.
In a corp with hundreds and hundreds of active members, the CEO/Directors can't possibly know every single member and be sure they will obey instructions - this will make for some interesting interactions come May 6th, I'm sure. And yes, spies will happen and that will make for some awesome stories, especially with FF on! ;)
I agree that an officer ability to kick players from corp matches would be a really welcome thing but considering it's not going to be there straight away, people are going to have to make contingencies. |
Django Quik
R.I.f.t
359
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Posted - 2013.04.21 19:38:00 -
[16] - Quote
Just had an interesting idea for how corps could manage corp match participants in the future. Check out the Team Roster idea in the Feedback forum (for some annoying reason it won't let me post the link here!) |
Val'herik Dorn
SyNergy Gaming EoN.
432
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Posted - 2013.04.21 19:54:00 -
[17] - Quote
I'll do pc if asked but untill we get a market... I don't want the junk.
I have one suit with an assault rifle I in no way need 300 duvolles sitting in my assets.
Nor will I need tons of assault suits...
Salvage system + no market = meh
Now with the market sure bring on teh loots I'd be more inclined to actively participate beyond hey if you guys need me I'm here. |
Vaerana Myshtana
Bojo's School of the Trades
702
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Posted - 2013.04.21 20:59:00 -
[18] - Quote
Scheneighnay McBob wrote:To be honest, I don't think that will be a problem. Should be enough districts to go around.
HAHAHAHAAAAAHAHAHAHA!!!
*Eyes watering*
I'm sorry, Man.
*Gasps for breath*
I'm not trying to be a jerk dude, but that was really funny.
There are at least six Kaijus in Dust already:
http://evemaps.dotlan.net/alliance/Unclaimed. <- SVER True Blood http://evemaps.dotlan.net/alliance/Test_Alliance_Please_Ignore <- Subdreddit http://evemaps.dotlan.net/alliance/Orion_Empire <- A BUNCH of Dust corps... http://evemaps.dotlan.net/alliance/Ivy_League <- Dust University http://evemaps.dotlan.net/alliance/RISE_of_LEGION <- A BUNCH of Dust corps... http://evemaps.dotlan.net/alliance/CRONOS. <- A BUNCH of Dust corps...
(Apologies to any I've forgotten)
That doesn't include the sharks or any of the other kaijus that will get more deeply into Dust as it starts to affect them.
There are not enough districts to go around. There never will be. The only thing right now that will keep PC from being another total NAP fest is if the "anyone in your corp can fight" rule stays in place and these alliances can't maintain internal discipline about who gets to fight.
My apologies if you were just kidding.
I'm just really gloomy about the future of PC as a game mode for anyone but the top 5% of players.
Look at the math- 250 districts x 32 players per day = 9,000 slots for PC battles.
That's assuming every district is attacked every day- but it will probably be less than half of them each day, so 4,500. We'll round up to 5,000.
There are over 2,000,000 mercs on DustBoard, even assuming that 75% of those are alts or dead accounts, that's 500,000 live players. Even if we assume that 80% of those play infrequently enough not to care about PC, that's still 100,000 players competing for less than 5,000 slots.
Less than 5% of players will have an opportunity to fight a PC battle on any given day. Since any corp that wants to hold its districts will try very hard to enforce the "you only fight if we pick you" rule, that means that in a very short period of time the six kaijus will hold all of Molden Heath and the rest of us will be scrimping and saving up money to attack single districts only to fight against ringers in (40-district funded) proto or tech 2 gear.
This is why I was SO VERY insistent that Genesis was a better region and that hisec systems had to count in the jumping. |
Vaerana Myshtana
Bojo's School of the Trades
702
|
Posted - 2013.04.21 21:00:00 -
[19] - Quote
Mister Porter wrote:We need either a boot player from the match function or an invite type feature so people cannot just randomly join a corp match uninvited.
No. Random corp members acting like blueberries is the only thing that will enable PC to have a snowball's chance in hell of not becoming a NAP fest. |
Marston VC
SVER True Blood Unclaimed.
154
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Posted - 2013.04.21 21:08:00 -
[20] - Quote
If your in a large corp that averages 30-40 people active daily its difficult to let EVERYONE know not to join a match. Not everyone is a hardcore player that pays attention to every little detail. Some 'casaul' players open their battlefinders and see "corp battle open now" and so they just join in without thinking. This is a big issue when your partaking in tournys and what not. As listed above a simple "kick" or "invite" feature would be fantastic. Or even a more complex system where you could assign groups of players days before the match even starts. I suspect that unless they fix the problem soon the issue is only going to get worse as corps get bigger. But I heard they were working on this so will see how things go. |
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hooc roht
Black Soul Choir
5
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Posted - 2013.04.21 21:17:00 -
[21] - Quote
Vaerana Myshtana wrote:I'm just really gloomy about the future of PC as a game mode for anyone but the top 5% of players. Look at the math- 250 districts x 32 players per day = 9,000 slots for PC battles. That's assuming every district is attacked every day- but it will probably be less than half of them each day, so 4,500. We'll round up to 5,000. There are over 2,000,000 mercs on DustBoard, even assuming that 75% of those are alts or dead accounts, that's 500,000 live players. Even if we assume that 80% of those play infrequently enough not to care about PC, that's still 100,000 players competing for less than 5,000 slots. Less than 5% of players will have an opportunity to fight a PC battle on any given day.
ummm it is called planetary conquest....pretty sure 250 districts on one planet is not going to be the end game for long...there are lots of planets in Eve. |
Vaerana Myshtana
Bojo's School of the Trades
702
|
Posted - 2013.04.21 21:26:00 -
[22] - Quote
Marston VC wrote:If your in a large corp that averages 30-40 people active daily its difficult to let EVERYONE know not to join a match. Not everyone is a hardcore player that pays attention to every little detail. Some 'casaul' players open their battlefinders and see "corp battle open now" and so they just join in without thinking. This is a big issue when your partaking in tournys and what not. As listed above a simple "kick" or "invite" feature would be fantastic. Or even a more complex system where you could assign groups of players days before the match even starts. I suspect that unless they fix the problem soon the issue is only going to get worse as corps get bigger. But I heard they were working on this so will see how things go.
The problem, honestly, isn't the 30-40 person corp.
It's the 500 person corp...
...in the 3,000 person alliance.
A kaiju. Of which there are at least six, probably eight or ten, already in game.
Unless we let the same communications chaos you're talking about hurt them, they will be unstoppable by anyone short of another kaiju. These mega alliances will simply be able to zerg everyone at their leisure with no risk of having spies or bad players slip into battles and muck up the works.
Without the chaos of random corpies jumping in, there will be no PC for anyone but the top 1% of players in the game.
Why? Because once the kaijus divide up Molden Heath amongst themselves, they will fight each other only rarely because they want to focus on smacking down small interlopers. This is the NAP Fest.
When little guys do attack, the kaijus' elite ringers will be equipped with gear funded from the clone sales on 20-40 districts, not scrimped and saved from scores of battles.
Right now, as the mechanics stand, the only shot anyone has of upsetting the kaijus' apple cart is the possibility that spies or blueberries get into battles and mess things up for their own team. That forces the kaijus to at least occasionally take losses instead of just reaping profits. |
Baal Roo
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
1208
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Posted - 2013.04.21 21:27:00 -
[23] - Quote
As one of the corps most likely affected by the "spy" situation, I am firmly against a "kick player" option. Being a spy and sabotaging a battle should be a valid tactic, if a corp lets a soy in they should have to suffer the consequences.
As far as organizational skills and communication, there is no magic bullet. You just have to make sure your corporation is set up properly with good fundamentals. There are more skills required for corps in this game to be successful than simply those of the gun toting variety. Leadership, organization, diplomacy, training, etc are all necessary to be able to grow and maintain a corp large enough to achieve the results you wish to achieve. It's relatively easy to build a small corp that's basically equivalent to a few squads of Navy Seals, it's another thing entirely to try and build a large scale empire akin to the U.S. Army. In the first you just pile together some "elite" players and call yourself a corp, in the second you must create programs, guidelines, recruitment channels, organize events to keep players morale high, create schedules that are flexible enough to give every player a chance to be involved and improve. |
Vaerana Myshtana
Bojo's School of the Trades
703
|
Posted - 2013.04.21 21:37:00 -
[24] - Quote
hooc roht wrote:Less than 5% of players will have an opportunity to fight a PC battle on any given day. ummm it is called planetary conquest....pretty sure 250 districts on one planet is not going to be the end game for long...there are lots of planets in Eve. [/quote]
You are correct that there are a lot more planets (especially in nullsec) that will eventually be opened to PC.
At that point, however, the big sovereignty alliances will become VERY interested in PC and make sure that they become kaijus in Dust as well.
Essentially, those planets will be off-limits to most corps.
That leaves lowsec, non-FW regions, of which there are only what, six? Seven?
That puts us in the realm of what, two thousand districts?
For a game that is intended to keep growing.
Honestly, what is likely to happen is that the kaijus linked to sovereign nullsec will pull back into their space, opening up lowsec for the other primarily-Dust kaijus. They will end up dominating entire lowsec regions without any effective challengers because they have so much wealth and manpower.
Sure, some corps might be able to rent planets from them, but only in places that the kaijus think are too risky or too worthless to defend themselves. If the corps don't pay rent, the kaiju sends in the ringers to wipe them out.
This is the same problem that led to the "Blue Donut" of Non-Aggression Pacts in EVE.
Once you control a lot of planets (or systems), your only threats are similarly-sized organizations. If you don't control a lot of planets (or systems), you cannot amass the resources to take territory from a large alliance.
Barring massive NPC zerg attacks on territories that go unattacked for too long, this is likely to happen even with the "anyone can fight" rule. But keeping the possibility for spies and nincompoops will at least slow it down. |
Vaerana Myshtana
Bojo's School of the Trades
703
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Posted - 2013.04.21 21:38:00 -
[25] - Quote
Baal Roo wrote:As one of the corps most likely affected by the "spy" situation, I am firmly against a "kick player" option. Being a spy and sabotaging a battle should be a valid tactic, if a corp lets a spy in they should have to suffer the consequences.
As far as organizational skills and communication, there is no magic bullet. You just have to make sure your corporation is set up properly with good fundamentals. There are more skills required for corps in this game to be successful than simply those of the gun toting variety, and the larger a corp gets the more important these skills become. Leadership, organization, diplomacy, training, etc are all necessary to be able to grow and maintain a corp large enough to achieve the results you wish to achieve.
It's relatively easy to build a small corp that's basically equivalent to a few squads of Navy Seals, it's another thing entirely to try and build a large scale empire akin to the U.S. Army. In the first you just pile together some "elite" players and call yourself a corp, in the second you must create programs, guidelines, recruitment channels, organize events to keep players morale high, create schedules that are flexible enough to give every player a chance to be involved and improve, etc.
Well said, sir. |
hooc roht
Black Soul Choir
5
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Posted - 2013.04.21 22:54:00 -
[26] - Quote
Vaerana Myshtana wrote:hooc roht wrote:Vaerana Myshtana wrote:Less than 5% of players will have an opportunity to fight a PC battle on any given day. ummm it is called planetary conquest....pretty sure 250 districts on one planet is not going to be the end game for long...there are lots of planets in Eve. You are correct that there are a lot more planets (especially in nullsec) that will eventually be opened to PC. At that point, however, the big sovereignty alliances will become VERY interested in PC and make sure that they become kaijus in Dust as well. Essentially, those planets will be off-limits to most corps. That leaves lowsec, non-FW regions, of which there are only what, six? Seven? That puts us in the realm of what, two thousand districts? For a game that is intended to keep growing. Honestly, what is likely to happen is that the kaijus linked to sovereign nullsec will pull back into their space, opening up lowsec for the other primarily-Dust kaijus. They will end up dominating entire lowsec regions without any effective challengers because they have so much wealth and manpower. Sure, some corps might be able to rent planets from them, but only in places that the kaijus think are too risky or too worthless to defend themselves. If the corps don't pay rent, the kaiju sends in the ringers to wipe them out. This is the same problem that led to the "Blue Donut" of Non-Aggression Pacts in EVE. Once you control a lot of planets (or systems), your only threats are similarly-sized organizations. If you don't control a lot of planets (or systems), you cannot amass the resources to take territory from a large alliance. Barring massive NPC zerg attacks on territories that go unattacked for too long, this is likely to happen even with the "anyone can fight" rule. But keeping the possibility for spies and nincompoops will at least slow it down.
Well looking at what CCP is doing with eve (they want to make it new again like the first time you played it. A huge unknown to explore) i am thinking they are going to substantially increase the size of the EVE universe.
Also with DUST there seems to be only a little benefit of linking up with a big EVE corp. As a dust Merc the eve pilots can't really hurt us. We die and only lose a little gear. If anything keeping the Mercs in line with what an EVE corp wants will be a drain on them.
I am thinking DUST will not solidify the huge corps but open their flank to an attack.
I am also thinking CCP is doing this by design. |
Vaerana Myshtana
Bojo's School of the Trades
704
|
Posted - 2013.04.21 23:43:00 -
[27] - Quote
hooc roht wrote: Well looking at what CCP is doing with eve (they want to make it new again like the first time you played it. A huge unknown to explore) i am thinking they are going to substantially increase the size of the EVE universe.
Also with DUST there seems to be only a little benefit of linking up with a big EVE corp. As a dust Merc the eve pilots can't really hurt us. We die and only lose a little gear. If anything keeping the Mercs in line with what an EVE corp wants will be a drain on them.
I am thinking DUST will not solidify the huge corps but open their flank to an attack.
I am also thinking CCP is doing this by design.
Honestly, I hope you are right.
My concern is just that Dust, which is intended to be accessible to a more casual audience than EVE, is running a very real risk of just becoming the same Blue Donut as EVE.
Perhaps if they were launching with a lot more districts and more space between them I wouldn't be so worried, but I just don't see how anyone but the kaijus and maybe a few sharks are going to own anything in Molden Heath after a month.
The more I look at the economics and the more I look at how closely packed that region is (3 jumps max from the farthest pockets), I just don't see a future for anyone who isn't already seriously organized and super-skilled or super-huge. |
Patoman Radiant
ZionTCD
65
|
Posted - 2013.04.21 23:51:00 -
[28] - Quote
Bendtner92 wrote:Conchuir Harte wrote:Bendtner92 wrote: Although I do wonder why we aren't able to kick people out of PC matches. Someone sabotaging the match by not playing is one thing, but with FF on nothing is stopping that guy from sabotaging the match entirely.
Just seems strange that we can't kick those people from the match.
Why would your own Corp-mates be sabotaging your own team? Unless you are pulling in random ringers? Sorry I'm ill informed on this so I must be missing something. If someone is a spy or something? Just doesn't make sense that we can't kick people from PC matches if someone decides to go against his team.
If they suck kick them out of corp. No more problems. |
Bendtner92
Imperfects Negative-Feedback
493
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Posted - 2013.04.22 07:29:00 -
[29] - Quote
Baal Roo wrote:As one of the corps most likely affected by the "spy" situation, I am firmly against a "kick player" option. Being a spy and sabotaging a battle should be a valid tactic, if a corp lets a spy in they should have to suffer the consequences. If someone reveals themself as a spy by starting to teamkill or something else in the middle of a match he should be able to be kicked right away. It doesn't make sense that a corp can't do anything to get rid of a spy the moment he reveals himself.
The spy can always just not play up to his best, make teamkills look like a mistake or something else, but there should be an option to kick him right away if leadership wants to.
If the spy isn't playing up to his best he still sabotages the match on a small scale. If he wants to go large scale and try to teamkill the entire team he should do it at the right time because he risks being kicked out of the match the moment he starts doing it.
Patoman Radiant wrote:If they suck kick them out of corp. No more problems. That doesn't solve the thing with a spy during a match. |
Don Von Hulio
Not Guilty EoN.
145
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Posted - 2013.04.22 09:36:00 -
[30] - Quote
Theres going to be battles 24/7. At least for awhile it will probably be kinda hectic and districts will change hands frequently. Only because "OMG its something new to do" and those who can get in on it will want t do it. Then things will settle down and the top corps with the most members will take them over then just sit on them... and that will be the day when DUST and EvE mirror each other.
Im gonna guess, 50 members in a corp is not enough to hold a district('s) for an extended period of time. 200+ member corps that are somewhat functional will find it easier to hold districts than 50 legitament players. I say this because they should always have enough players to defend or attack at any hour of the day. And from what i understand, the benefit of having a district is keeping it, if you cant keep it why even try. |
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