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Laurent Cazaderon
Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation
1304
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Posted - 2013.04.14 18:00:00 -
[1] - Quote
So what ? Should we expect another SP\ISK reset ? Just because a few whiners wants to get their AUR back once more ?
I really hope CCP doesnt even think about doing this ! It's not just about characters now, it's about corporations. And what about money invested in EVE to deal with the lack of tools dust side ? In case of a reset, shouldnt those who did that entitled to complain about this as well ?
I wont pretend i understand anything to those law stuff. To be honest i dont care at all.
If i this reimbursement issue has to be linked with SP modifications of the players involved then i sure hope CCP will offer the choice to players to either get their money back or keep their in-game progress. In fact, as those bitchin about this seems to be a few group of people, deal with them individually and let us all, non-whiners, be.
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Three Double-A Batteries
Fraternity of St. Venefice Amarr Empire
93
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Posted - 2013.04.14 20:12:00 -
[2] - Quote
You're on the ball.
About four weeks ago it was edited to include some substantial caveats and about two weeks ago it was deep-sixed.
I hope that someone seeks an injunction on the whole thing. I don't care which way. |
Kaze Eyrou
ROGUE SPADES EoN.
110
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Posted - 2013.04.14 20:19:00 -
[3] - Quote
At this point with so many people wanting free stuff refund of Aurum on their Merc Packs, I am bracing for a full reset. If we don't get one and it's just a respec, I'll be happy. If it's a full reset, *shrug* looks like the whiners won.
I don't think the whiners remembered that they will have to buy all the militia BPOs at full Aurum prices when we full reset though. |
Drud Green
Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire
10
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Posted - 2013.04.14 20:21:00 -
[4] - Quote
Nom nom nom nom nom |
Kaze Eyrou
ROGUE SPADES EoN.
110
|
Posted - 2013.04.14 20:37:00 -
[5] - Quote
Drud Green wrote:Nom nom nom nom nom Mmm. Bacon. |
Ignoble Son
3dge of D4rkness SoulWing Alliance
149
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Posted - 2013.04.14 20:43:00 -
[6] - Quote
I wrote the following quote for one of the many threads on this topic, and I think that I'm just going to start reposting it in every one of these threads.
ignoble son wrote:Alright... *cracks knuckles* ...amateur hour is over. Time to get down to brass tacks with this subject (this is truly a snafu of the first magnitude).
Let's do some ethics (hope you packed a lunch):
First, it is necessary for us to CLEARLY define the terminology that was used, and is currently under debate now - in as far as, how it may have -ábeen defined by the consumer, as well as, how CCP may have intended it to be defined, both in light of the actual literal interpretations of said terms.
-áTerms currently under debate:
GÇó Mercenary Pack GÇó Credited in full GÇó Character reset GÇó Commercial release
"...Mercenary Pack will be credited in full to your in-game DUST 514 account after each character reset AND for the commercial release."
(emphasis added)
I am, of course, assuming that the above quote is accurate.
"Mercenary pack" is easy. We all know what it is and what it contains.
"Credited in full", like above, is also VERY clear.
"Character reset", now here is we're we star to run into some problems. What exactly is a character reset (in as far as, both the paying customer and CCP may have defined it).
"Commercial release", and again we run into the same problem as above: what exactly does a "commercial release" Intel?
Let's explore the contested terms.
1. Character reset:
As a consumer, there are two ways to interpret this phrase:
1. Singular: "my character will be reset". This excludes the necessity for the consumer to concern themselves with any other consumer who may have purchased the "Mercenary Pack". In essence, in this interpretation, the consumers purchase occurred in a vacuum.
2. Plural: "all consumers are subject (SUBJECT not entitled) to a reset when it occurs. In this interpretation, the consumer is buying the "Mercenary Pack" with the understanding that the affect, "character reset" insinuates, is as follows: when a character reset occurs, it will affect all consumers.
So, which one is it?
Before we delve any deeper into this, let's take the following scenario under consideration:
During the last character reset (just prior to the open beta launch) if it had been optional, at that time (during that character reset) to opt out of the reset, would this have been desirable to anyone? Speaking from my own perspective, the answer is yes, and I am quite certain that there are many others out there who share sentiment. The reason for this is because I was quite satisfied with what I had, to that point, accomplished with my character. But would this have been fair to the other consumers that were not satisfied? As so many people are so fond of saying, this is a beta, and as such, "a work in progress", an unfinished product subject to change. Now can the consumer be held financial responsible for the purchase of a product that is subject to change? Take the following as an example:
I walk into a grocery store to which it took me two months to drive to (the only grocery store on the planet infact). I take an apple from the shelf, and take it to the teller in order to purchase it. As the teller swipes the apple across the scanner, to ring up the sale, through some act of magic, the apple suddenly turns into an orange. Is it still my responsibility to purchase the orange? The answer is, most emphatically, no.
Now let's say that there are ten people at the teller with me (all purcasing apples) yet mine is the only one that keeps tuning into an orange. Befuddled, I look around in bewilderment and by chance happen to spot a man in a dress shirt and tie waving a wand everytime the teller tries to scan the apple. He is wearing a name tag, it says: "CCP owner/manager". The man notices me noticing him and promptly approaches me, and the following conversation ensues:
CCP: Hello sir. My name is CCP, I'm the owner. What seems to be the problem?
Bob, the unsatisfied customer: Well, quite frankly I'm trying to buy an apply but it keeps turning into an orange.
CCP: Ahh, i see. We have had this problem happen before. I am afraid that you will have to return to you're place of residence, obtaine a notarized afidavid stating that you have returned to your please of residence, and then return to CCP Mart, at which time, we here a CCP Mart guarantee that the issue will be resolved.
Bob, the unsatisfied customer: but it took me two months to drive to CCP Mart, what about the time and effort I spent to get here?
CCP: I am quite sorry sir. That is CCP Mart policy.
I'll leave it up to your imagination to figure out what bobs reaction is at that point.
So, as we should all plainly be able to see, an option to opt out of a reset is not an ethical/fair one, because all of those satisfied with the game get to continue on being satisfied with the game while those who are not satisfied, loose an irreplaceable set of commodities: time and effort.
Ok, that takes care of the first contested term. Let's move on to the next:
2. Commercial release:
Legally speaking, this is VERY specific, as well as, VERY binding and for good reason: because it removes consumer responsibility to act responsibly with their purchases until CCP makes the consumer aware that the property has been "commercially released"
Regardless of what CCP had intended to mean by "commercial release" is irrelevant. The fact is that the two terms "commercial release" and reset are not connected in any way, no matter how much CCP or any one else, for that mater, wants them to be. By this term, CCP is legally obligated to credit the items in question to any consumer that purchased a Mercenary Pack.
{Continued>>> |
Ignoble Son
3dge of D4rkness SoulWing Alliance
149
|
Posted - 2013.04.14 20:43:00 -
[7] - Quote
ignoble son wrote:The simple fact is that CCP should never have included "commercial release", in the contract literature, if that is not what the were intending to do. it is miss leading in the extreme, and gives those who were mislead by it a valid argument:
I was not responsible with my money because CCP assured me that I did not have to be until the "commercial release".
There is, legally, only three options that CCP can pursue:
1. Reset all player accounts upon commercial release
This is an option that neither the majority of the player base nor CCP themselves want. I can tell you personall that, if my lifetime skill points is reset to zero again, I will no longer be playing this game, and I am sure that there are many others out there who would feel the same, which is the reason why CCP does not desire this option ether.
2. CCP can offer to reset the accounts of any one who wants a Mercenary Pack credit, however, this is entirely unethical toward those who were genuinely mislead by the language of the purchase contract. If this is the path CCP chooses, I will not choose to have my character reset, but neither will I be leaving the game.
3. CCP can take it on the chin like a real man, cut their losses and give out the credits to every one who bought a Mercinary Pack, as to HONOR the original agreement. I would actually consider it a reward to those who helped CCP develop their game in beta. This seems reasonable, and was, in all honesty, what I interpreted this thing to mean when CCP announced that there will be no further "character resets".
And that's my 20 cents worth. Hope this all in some way helped this debacle to get resolved in a desirable fashion that is agreeable to all parties involved. |
Arkena Wyrnspire
Turalyon Plus
50
|
Posted - 2013.04.14 20:48:00 -
[8] - Quote
Internet lawyering is incredibly stupid. All the people bitching about the merc packs have no idea what they're talking about. |
XeroTheBigBoss
Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz Noir. Mercenary Group
135
|
Posted - 2013.04.14 21:30:00 -
[9] - Quote
IF they decide to wipe you will all finally get what ya want. It doesn't matter if you want your cake and to eat it too. HERE IN NEW EDEN YOU CAN'T! You either want your AUR back and take the wipe with it. Or everybody give up on this dream of getting more AUR for free and leave everything as is. IF I was CCP I would just wiipe everything whenever commercial release is official just to kick the guys who kept bringing it up in the GUNT! |
Deluxe Edition
TeamPlayers EoN.
91
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Posted - 2013.04.14 21:30:00 -
[10] - Quote
Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:Internet lawyering is incredibly stupid. All the people bitching about the merc packs have no idea what they're talking about.
No CCP made an error. They made the terms stating that AUR would be given back before commercial release and at every reset. Then CCP made the decision that the recent reset was to be the last, an put the game into open beta (which is not commercial release) and then walked back on the original agreement without telling the player base. |
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Mithridates VI
DUST 411
818
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Posted - 2013.04.14 21:32:00 -
[11] - Quote
Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:Internet lawyering is incredibly stupid. All the people bitching about the merc packs have no idea what they're talking about.
What's important is that you've found an ad-hominem which lets you feel superior to both sides of the debate. |
Mavado V Noriega
SyNergy Gaming EoN.
2762
|
Posted - 2013.04.14 21:33:00 -
[12] - Quote
Deluxe Edition wrote:Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:Internet lawyering is incredibly stupid. All the people bitching about the merc packs have no idea what they're talking about. No CCP made an error. They made the terms stating that AUR would be given back before commercial release and at every reset. Then CCP made the decision that the recent reset was to be the last, an put the game into open beta (which is not commercial release) and then walked back on the original agreement without telling the player base.
they actually did tell the playerbase |
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS.
3413
|
Posted - 2013.04.14 21:35:00 -
[13] - Quote
They better not do a reset to appease these people. They got the items they paid for, and those items work as intended. If they used up the items unwisely then it is their fault since SP told everyone that the move to Tranquility would be the last reset. |
Baal Roo
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
1111
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Posted - 2013.04.14 21:38:00 -
[14] - Quote
Mavado V Noriega wrote:Deluxe Edition wrote:Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:Internet lawyering is incredibly stupid. All the people bitching about the merc packs have no idea what they're talking about. No CCP made an error. They made the terms stating that AUR would be given back before commercial release and at every reset. Then CCP made the decision that the recent reset was to be the last, an put the game into open beta (which is not commercial release) and then walked back on the original agreement without telling the player base. they actually did tell the playerbase
Source?
Pro tip: don't bother, because this never happened. |
Three Double-A Batteries
Fraternity of St. Venefice Amarr Empire
96
|
Posted - 2013.04.14 21:38:00 -
[15] - Quote
Ignoble Son wrote:ignoble son wrote:The simple fact is that CCP should never have included "commercial release", in the contract literature, if that is not what the were intending to do. it is miss leading in the extreme, and gives those who were mislead by it a valid argument:
I was not responsible with my money because CCP assured me that I did not have to be until the "commercial release".
There is, legally, only three options that CCP can pursue:
1. Reset all player accounts upon commercial release
This is an option that neither the majority of the player base nor CCP themselves want. I can tell you personall that, if my lifetime skill points is reset to zero again, I will no longer be playing this game, and I am sure that there are many others out there who would feel the same, which is the reason why CCP does not desire this option ether.
2. CCP can offer to reset the accounts of any one who wants a Mercenary Pack credit, however, this is entirely unethical toward those who were genuinely mislead by the language of the purchase contract. If this is the path CCP chooses, I will not choose to have my character reset, but neither will I be leaving the game.
3. CCP can take it on the chin like a real man, cut their losses and give out the credits to every one who bought a Mercinary Pack, as to HONOR the original agreement. I would actually consider it a reward to those who helped CCP develop their game in beta. This seems reasonable, and was, in all honesty, what I interpreted this thing to mean when CCP announced that there will be no further "character resets".
And that's my 20 cents worth. Hope this all in some way helped this debacle to get resolved in a desirable fashion that is agreeable to all parties involved. I have reported your screed in every thread I see it in. Quit it for goodness sakes. |
Garrett Blacknova
Codex Troopers
2494
|
Posted - 2013.04.14 21:41:00 -
[16] - Quote
Deluxe Edition wrote:and then walked back on the original agreement without telling the player base. Got a source to confirm CCP aren't going to be honouring the terms of the Merc Pack?
Becuase I'm pretty sure the problem here is a LACK of confirmation, not that they've confirmed any intent to go against the terms they agreed to with those sales. |
Natu Nobilis
Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic
42
|
Posted - 2013.04.14 21:49:00 -
[17] - Quote
Worst case scenario solution is:
Total wipe => Name it "Commercial release"
0 SP 0 leaderboard 0 items bought with isk or aurum (including low priced BPOS) Refund of special items adquired troughout the events (Skinweave, State, Federation, blah blah) Original aurum bought (no more, no less)
Its shuts up the pain in the kitten players (and undercover infiltrators from other companies that want to create a mess with the game), but it makes the rest of the players quite angry.
But, this is clearly a mediatic stunt to generate bad press for CCP, and malicious costumers trying to abuse the system. |
Mavado V Noriega
SyNergy Gaming EoN.
2763
|
Posted - 2013.04.14 22:05:00 -
[18] - Quote
Baal Roo wrote:Mavado V Noriega wrote:Deluxe Edition wrote:Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:Internet lawyering is incredibly stupid. All the people bitching about the merc packs have no idea what they're talking about. No CCP made an error. They made the terms stating that AUR would be given back before commercial release and at every reset. Then CCP made the decision that the recent reset was to be the last, an put the game into open beta (which is not commercial release) and then walked back on the original agreement without telling the player base. they actually did tell the playerbase Source? Pro tip: don't bother, because this never happened.
lol not sure if srs |
Garrett Blacknova
Codex Troopers
2497
|
Posted - 2013.04.14 22:06:00 -
[19] - Quote
Natu Nobilis wrote:But, this is clearly a mediatic stunt to generate bad press for CCP, and malicious costumers trying to abuse the system. Or some customers who just want to see CCP giving their customers the ENTIRE content they sold instead of cuttting us short just because it's not what other people are now buying for the same price. |
Natu Nobilis
Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic
44
|
Posted - 2013.04.14 22:15:00 -
[20] - Quote
Garrett Blacknova wrote:Natu Nobilis wrote:But, this is clearly a mediatic stunt to generate bad press for CCP, and malicious costumers trying to abuse the system. Or some customers who just want to see CCP giving their customers the ENTIRE content they sold instead of cuttting us short just because it's not what other people are now buying for the same price.
"malicious costumers trying to abuse the system"
I bought my stuff before open beta and i understood that in the event of resets and failures, i would get my stuff back. It-¦s different than getting free stuff without having lost things. |
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Mr Gloo Gloo
What The French CRONOS.
52
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Posted - 2013.04.15 08:01:00 -
[21] - Quote
Bump !!!
Need a dev answer here !!!
Thx. |
Sylvana Nightwind
Expert Intervention Caldari State
245
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Posted - 2013.04.15 08:18:00 -
[22] - Quote
They will not reset sp, chill. Character has sp and isk and iw ill be like that. Respec - sure. |
Mr Gloo Gloo
What The French CRONOS.
52
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Posted - 2013.04.15 08:27:00 -
[23] - Quote
I believe (and hope) that we will not have a full sp reset, for many reasons.
But the disappearance of the sticky, and all thoose damn f**king threads about Merc Pack refund, tells me that it's not for sure anymore.
Really waiting for CCP's move on this subject. |
Sylvana Nightwind
Expert Intervention Caldari State
245
|
Posted - 2013.04.15 08:37:00 -
[24] - Quote
https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=619126#post619126 it is still there, they probably did sticky cleaning only. |
Three Double-A Batteries
Fraternity of St. Venefice Amarr Empire
97
|
Posted - 2013.04.15 09:33:00 -
[25] - Quote
It seems strange that CCP would provide even LESS information on this whole topic.
A good clue about their overall behaviour and intent though. |
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CCP Eterne
C C P C C P Alliance
1347
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Posted - 2013.04.15 09:36:00 -
[26] - Quote
I unstickied the thread because we're going to have a dev blog on the topic soon which will contain more information than the sticky did. |
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Three Double-A Batteries
Fraternity of St. Venefice Amarr Empire
100
|
Posted - 2013.04.15 09:40:00 -
[27] - Quote
CCP Eterne wrote:I unstickied the thread because we're going to have a dev blog on the topic soon which will contain more information than the sticky did. Removed weeks ago for a "dev blog" that will arrive "soon".
Seems legit. |
Arkena Wyrnspire
Turalyon Plus
52
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Posted - 2013.04.15 09:46:00 -
[28] - Quote
Three Double-A Batteries wrote:CCP Eterne wrote:I unstickied the thread because we're going to have a dev blog on the topic soon which will contain more information than the sticky did. Removed weeks ago for a "dev blog" that will arrive "soon". Seems legit.
Soon (tm). I guess you'll just have to deal with it. |
blue gt
Algintal Core Gallente Federation
25
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Posted - 2013.04.15 09:48:00 -
[29] - Quote
Kaze Eyrou wrote:At this point with so many people wanting free stuff refund of Aurum on their Merc Packs, I am bracing for a full reset. If we don't get one and it's just a respec, I'll be happy. If it's a full reset, *shrug* looks like the whiners won. I don't think the whiners remembered that they will have to buy all the militia BPOs at full Aurum prices when we full reset though. EDIT: Found the link. No longer sticky but still exists. https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=619126#post619126
oh GOD YES that would be amazing id would take the hit on my aur balance and SP just to see all the whining on the forums about how the aur they had was no longer sufficient and how ccp NEEEDs to give them the stuff they bought before at the prices they were before, because THEY'LL SUE!!
This would make my day, I hope those greedy bastards get whats coming to them. Yes I do mean greedy, they are not heroes looking to protect every one from the evil lying corporation that is CCP, they are a bunch of ass holes trying to scrape every dime they can out of a game thats trying to find is financial footing despite the company holding up the very clear intent of its policies. |
Three Double-A Batteries
Fraternity of St. Venefice Amarr Empire
101
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Posted - 2013.04.15 09:53:00 -
[30] - Quote
Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:Three Double-A Batteries wrote:CCP Eterne wrote:I unstickied the thread because we're going to have a dev blog on the topic soon which will contain more information than the sticky did. Removed weeks ago for a "dev blog" that will arrive "soon". Seems legit. Soon (tm). I guess you'll just have to deal with it. It doesn't worry me.
It's only CCP's reputation and credibility on the line.
All the more supportive of my view that giving CCP money for a game where it's quite clear they aren't running anything like an open beta is far too risky.
The foot dragging, silence except for the promises of "soon" should be a warning to all would be customers. |
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