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Ryder Azorria
Amarr Templars Amarr Empire
179
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Posted - 2013.04.14 11:30:00 -
[1] - Quote
Garrett Blacknova wrote:xaerael Kabiel wrote:Legal, Legal, Legally. I keep hearing this on this subject, but how many of you have actually sought legal advice on this subject? Got a friend whose mother is a lawyer, and has been through similar cases to this one more than once, all of which were resolved in the customer's favour. Asked her to look at the original wording of the Merc Pack compared with the current wording, and got her to look at multiple official sources - from both Sony and CCP - stating that the game isn't commercially released yet. She says there's a really solid case. I also had a friend who's in a law degree doing a case study specifically based around online purchases and the relevant laws, and he can't see any possible way for a lawsuit to fail if CCP don't give some form of refund of Merc Pack content to the purchasers who bought it with the original terms. Does that count? Quote:Also, "commercial release" isn't the same as "out of beta". The game was technically commercially released when it went live on tranquillity and "no more resets or wipes" were announced (note... "no more RESETS"). An AUR reset happened then, just as promised. As mentioned, both CCP and Sony have gone on record, publicly, stating that the game isn't yet commercially released. When people approach Sony about the issue, they specifically refuse to get involved until commercial release. When people have been arguing that the game is commercially released, CCP have said no, and in a thread where people were discussing the wording of the Human Endurance event's original posting, there was mention of Uprising "leading into commercial release" and CCP directly stated that Uprising WILL NOT BE THE RELEASE BUILD. 1: I'm guessing your friends mom didn't read the EULA (I have. Spoiler: you're screwed.)
2: Commercial release != Full release. |
Ryder Azorria
Amarr Templars Amarr Empire
179
|
Posted - 2013.04.14 11:49:00 -
[2] - Quote
JL3Eleven wrote:Rasatsu wrote:JL3Eleven wrote:When the game goes into commercial release they are legally obligated to refund it again and without any SP wipes like people are saying. Sorry if you didnt see a good deal when they were waving it in your face begging you to take advantage of it.
Edit: we have not hit commercial release yet. They are not legally obligated to not wipe your SP. If you push them they'll just pull the same move they did against the RMT buyer that threatened legal action over getting banned; they unbanned him and set his wallet to many billions in the negative. These days they do it to all RMT buyers. CCP should just make the offer explicit; option for merc pack refund in exchange for SP reset. You cannot punish a person for asking what you legally agreed to give them. So keep dreaming. If my SP is reset guess what so is yours but you want have anything to show for the reset while I will. I've been through many wipes whats another? Again, may I direct your attention to the almighty EULA.
ME wrote:1: I'm guessing your friends mom didn't read the EULA (I have. Spoiler: you're screwed.) EULA wrote: You are responsible for reviewing the Fees section of the Game for changes in the Fee or payment terms. If a change is unacceptable to you, you may, as your sole and exclusive remedy, terminate the EULA and close your Account as described in section 13 below. You are responsible for paying all applicable taxes and for all hardware, software, Internet service, and other costs you incur to access the System.
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Ryder Azorria
Amarr Templars Amarr Empire
179
|
Posted - 2013.04.14 11:59:00 -
[3] - Quote
JL3Eleven wrote:Drud Green wrote:Jealos people are jealous
Imo the whole point of 'aur refund at commercial release' was to entice people to commit money whilst giving them the freedom to expiriment with aswell as test aur items. No aur refund at commercial release = bait and switch
All you jealous people are free to cry about it
This X1000000. They made a special offer so people would spend money on a "beta" otherwise no one would have. Actually it's called the "We asked (begged) CCP for no more resets, and they delivered, now we're whining about it because apparently we're all 12 years old - and switch." |
Ryder Azorria
Amarr Templars Amarr Empire
179
|
Posted - 2013.04.14 12:13:00 -
[4] - Quote
JL3Eleven wrote:Ryder Azorria wrote:JL3Eleven wrote:Drud Green wrote:Jealos people are jealous
Imo the whole point of 'aur refund at commercial release' was to entice people to commit money whilst giving them the freedom to expiriment with aswell as test aur items. No aur refund at commercial release = bait and switch
All you jealous people are free to cry about it
This X1000000. They made a special offer so people would spend money on a "beta" otherwise no one would have. Actually it's called the "We asked (begged) CCP for no more resets, and they delivered, now we're whining about it because apparently we're all 12 years old - and switch." Boy are you misguided. We don't want a reset. We are waiting for commercial release big difference. PS its yet to happen. Not at all, it's the spirit of the agreement - Every time CCP resets our characters, they refund our real money stuff - no more, no less.
And again, it could be argued that commercial release was the move to TQ, and we are now waiting on the full release - as commercial release and full release are not always the same thing. |
Ryder Azorria
Amarr Templars Amarr Empire
180
|
Posted - 2013.04.14 12:27:00 -
[5] - Quote
JL3Eleven wrote: Dude its OFFICIALLLY stated we are not commercial released. By CCP themselves!
Forum post != legal document.
Kitten it, it's like arguing with a petulant 12 year old.
EULA wrote: You are responsible for reviewing the Fees section of the Game for changes in the Fee or payment terms. If a change is unacceptable to you, you may, as your sole and exclusive remedy, terminate the EULA and close your Account as described in section 13 below. You are responsible for paying all applicable taxes and for all hardware, software, Internet service, and other costs you incur to access the System.
Legally, since your "sole and exclusive remedy" is to terminate the EULA and shut your account, not b*tching on the forums - either do so or STFU. |
Ryder Azorria
Amarr Templars Amarr Empire
180
|
Posted - 2013.04.14 12:31:00 -
[6] - Quote
JL3Eleven wrote:Ryder Azorria wrote:JL3Eleven wrote: Dude its OFFICIALLLY stated we are not commercial released. By CCP themselves!
Forum post != legal document. Kitten it, it's like arguing with a petulant 12 year old. EULA wrote: You are responsible for reviewing the Fees section of the Game for changes in the Fee or payment terms. If a change is unacceptable to you, you may, as your sole and exclusive remedy, terminate the EULA and close your Account as described in section 13 below. You are responsible for paying all applicable taxes and for all hardware, software, Internet service, and other costs you incur to access the System.
Legally, since your "sole and exclusive remedy" is to terminate the EULA and shut your account, not b*tching on the forums - either do so or STFU. What change? 'Refund at full / commercial release due to reset' changed to 'no reset, therefore no refund.' |
Ryder Azorria
Amarr Templars Amarr Empire
181
|
Posted - 2013.04.14 12:56:00 -
[7] - Quote
Garrett Blacknova wrote:Ryder Azorria wrote:1: I'm guessing your friends mom didn't read the EULA (I have. Spoiler: you're screwed.) EULA wrote: You are responsible for reviewing the Fees section of the Game for changes in the Fee or payment terms. If a change is unacceptable to you, you may, as your sole and exclusive remedy, terminate the EULA and close your Account as described in section 13 below. You are responsible for paying all applicable taxes and for all hardware, software, Internet service, and other costs you incur to access the System.
No, she didn't read the EULA. There's a good reason for that. It's not relevant to the purchase agreement, the contents of which include the product description as it stood at the time of purchase. Doesn't matter what civilised country you're applying the laws for - I'd say "even" Britain, but "especially" might fit better, since they offer better consumer protection than most US states, in which this is still not legal - but you can't retroactively use a digital product's EULA to get out of ANY detail included in a purchase agreement. Spoiler: The product description in an online store legally comprises a part of the purchase agreement. By British law as well as US, NZ, Australian and most other countries that actually have consumer laws with any possibility of application to online purchases. You're right, under the British consumer laws that CCP is bound by, they are legally obligated to refund merc packs bought online through gamestop and the like (not anything bought through the game it's self as per section 4 of the EULA)
HOWEVER
Those legal rights are waived by signing the EULA (section 3 para 3).
EULA wrote:Upon termination of this beta, CCP may, in its sole discretion, delete or destroy all characters, character attributes, skills, and items acquired during the beta. As a participant in the beta, you acknowledge and agree you have no right to retain characters or their attributes, skills, or other acquired items. |
Ryder Azorria
Amarr Templars Amarr Empire
181
|
Posted - 2013.04.14 13:29:00 -
[8] - Quote
Garrett Blacknova wrote:If you "acquired" the Merc Pack through gameplay, rather than purchasing it online through PSN or Gamestop (or in-store in the case of Gamestop), this would be relevant. I don't know of anyone who did, so it's not at all applicable to the Merc Pack in any situation that I've heard of as a possibility.
The purchase agreement is legally binding REGARDLESS OF WHAT ANY EULA CONTENT MIGHT STATE ABOUT CCP'S RIGHT TO CHANGE THINGS.
There's significant legal precedent in many countries - including CCP's chosen jurisdiction - for EULAs to be overruled by purchase agreements. By my own local laws, even the EULA's claim to apply British law can't be enforced when I'm questioning something in the purchase agreement, and my local laws (which are almost identical to British law anyway) are applicable. And by those laws, I'm entitled, regardless of the contents of any post-purchase EULA, or even a pre-purchase EULA that was made separate from the purchase itself, to what I was offered when I bought the product. While I don't have access to the resources to disprove you, and while I know that there is precedent for EULAs being overruled, I kinda doubt you have legal precedent for this exact scenario, ie. "explicitly signing away any previous or future legal rights in this matter with a legally binding document" - though if there is, wtf?! |
Ryder Azorria
Amarr Templars Amarr Empire
181
|
Posted - 2013.04.14 14:10:00 -
[9] - Quote
Garrett Blacknova wrote:Ryder Azorria wrote:Garrett Blacknova wrote:If you "acquired" the Merc Pack through gameplay, rather than purchasing it online through PSN or Gamestop (or in-store in the case of Gamestop), this would be relevant. I don't know of anyone who did, so it's not at all applicable to the Merc Pack in any situation that I've heard of as a possibility.
The purchase agreement is legally binding REGARDLESS OF WHAT ANY EULA CONTENT MIGHT STATE ABOUT CCP'S RIGHT TO CHANGE THINGS.
There's significant legal precedent in many countries - including CCP's chosen jurisdiction - for EULAs to be overruled by purchase agreements. By my own local laws, even the EULA's claim to apply British law can't be enforced when I'm questioning something in the purchase agreement, and my local laws (which are almost identical to British law anyway) are applicable. And by those laws, I'm entitled, regardless of the contents of any post-purchase EULA, or even a pre-purchase EULA that was made separate from the purchase itself, to what I was offered when I bought the product. While I don't have access to the resources to disprove you, and while I know that there is precedent for EULAs being overruled, I kinda doubt you have legal precedent for this exact scenario, ie. "explicitly signing away any previous or future legal rights in this matter with a legally binding document" - though if there is, wtf?! Purchase agreements are also legally binding, and are legally binding OUTSIDE of the limitations of EULAs, which are only binding within the confines of the purchased product. When you buy a Merc Pack, that purchase agreement - which includes the product description at the time of purchase - supercedes any EULA because it's applicable outside of the content itself, while the EULA isn't. Someone who agreed to the EULA before buying the Merc Pack is still legally entitled to what the Merc Pack description said at the time of purchase, in spite of them having "no legal rights" with regard to the content of the beta. The Merc Pack purchase occured OUTSIDE the beta, so any EULA relating to the beta is irrelevant. To be honest. if I were actually a member of CCPs legal team, instead of arguing this out, I would have long since advised them to do the following:
At the time of commercial release, offer all players the one time option to have any and all aurum, real money items (merc packs, armoured assault packs, etc.) and special event items (Skinweave suits, Exile AR etc.) refunded to their account (refunded in this case meaning returned the the item redeeming system, NOT a cash refund) in exchange for a full reset - SP, ISK, items, everything.
This satisfies any and all legal requirements pertaining to the matter regardless of which agreement supersedes which, even though I doubt many will take the offer. |
Ryder Azorria
Amarr Templars Amarr Empire
181
|
Posted - 2013.04.14 14:41:00 -
[10] - Quote
JL3Eleven wrote:Ryder Azorria wrote:To be honest. if I were actually a member of CCPs legal team, instead of arguing this out, I would have long since advised them to do the following:
At the time of commercial release, offer all players the one time option to have any and all aurum, real money items (merc packs, armoured assault packs, etc.) and special event items (Skinweave suits, Exile AR etc.) refunded to their account (refunded in this case meaning returned the the item redeeming system, NOT a cash refund) in exchange for a full reset - SP, ISK, items, everything.
This satisfies any and all legal requirements pertaining to the matter regardless of which agreement supersedes which, even though I doubt many will take the offer. Its also a **** move and seen as bullying. it's the move that would annoy the least amount people.
Ever since the move to TQ and the final reset, it has been generally accepted and understood that we are 'playing for keeps'.
By simply giving people a full, no strings, refund CCP goes against that core principle - which annoys all the players who understand and like the HTFU nature of the universe - especially those who didn't buy any merc packs or aurum and are now missing out on a pile of free stuff.
By simply having another full reset and refund, CCP annoys everyone.
By offering the aforementioned deal, CCP only annoys those who think they've found a loophole that gives them something for nothing.
Basically it's the lesser of three evils. |
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Ryder Azorria
Amarr Templars Amarr Empire
181
|
Posted - 2013.04.14 14:54:00 -
[11] - Quote
Drud Green wrote:Gbghb why should a player who supported this game during closed beta be punished for wanting what they paid for?
Aur refund does not eqaul skill reset. You guna cry about free boosters blah blah blah? Blame Ccp not the consumer.
Ps feelings are irrelavent to a purchase agreement. Simple, they've already got what they paid for. You want more, you pay more.
And you're right, feelings are irrelevant to the law - this includes yours. |
Ryder Azorria
Amarr Templars Amarr Empire
181
|
Posted - 2013.04.14 15:04:00 -
[12] - Quote
Drud Green wrote:Ryder Azorria wrote:Drud Green wrote:Gbghb why should a player who supported this game during closed beta be punished for wanting what they paid for?
Aur refund does not eqaul skill reset. You guna cry about free boosters blah blah blah? Blame Ccp not the consumer.
Ps feelings are irrelavent to a purchase agreement. Simple, they've already got what they paid for. You want more, you pay more. And you're right, feelings are irrelevant to the law - this includes yours. I raise you one 'aur refund at commercial release' And see your refund and raise you a reset.
By having a optional refund for reset deal, CCP honours the letter of the agreement, which may or may not even be legally binding because of the EULA. They also honour the 'refund only on reset' spirit of the agreement and the 'you don't get something for nothing' spirit of the game. |
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