DUST Search - I'm sending a complaint to Sony.

Ryder Azorria wrote:

Garrett Blacknova wrote:

Ryder Azorria wrote:

1: I'm guessing your friends mom didn't read the EULA (I have. Spoiler: you're screwed.)

EULA wrote:

You are responsible for reviewing the Fees section of the Game for changes in the Fee or payment terms. If a change is unacceptable to you, you may, as your sole and exclusive remedy, terminate the EULA and close your Account as described in section 13 below. You are responsible for paying all applicable taxes and for all hardware, software, Internet service, and other costs you incur to access the System.

No, she didn't read the EULA.

There's a good reason for that. It's not relevant to the purchase agreement, the contents of which include the product description as it stood at the time of purchase.

Doesn't matter what civilised country you're applying the laws for - I'd say "even" Britain, but "especially" might fit better, since they offer better consumer protection than most US states, in which this is still not legal - but you can't retroactively use a digital product's EULA to get out of ANY detail included in a purchase agreement.

Spoiler: The product description in an online store legally comprises a part of the purchase agreement. By British law as well as US, NZ, Australian and most other countries that actually have consumer laws with any possibility of application to online purchases.

You're right, under the various consumer laws that CCP is bound by, they are legally obligated to refund merc packs bought online through gamestop and the like (not anything bought through the game it's self as per section 4 of the EULA)

HOWEVER

Those legal rights are waived by signing the EULA (section 3 para 3).

EULA wrote:

Upon termination of this beta, CCP may, in its sole discretion, delete or destroy all characters, character attributes, skills, and items acquired during the beta. As a participant in the beta, you acknowledge and agree you have no right to retain characters or their attributes, skills, or other acquired items.

EDIT: Anyone who bought a merc pack through gamestop or similar, and did NOT sign the EULA are in fact entitled to a full refund, but since they have not used any of the items or aurum by virtue of not actually playing the game, it makes absolutely no difference to them at all.


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Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 2468	Posted - 2013.04.14 09:45:00 - [1] - Quote ALM1GHTY STATIUS wrote: Over not getting reimbursed for game-launch on the aurum I bought. I recommend anyone else do the same if this pissed you off. Got a source confirming the game has launched? Because I'm sure a few minutes of searching will provide multiple confirmed sources stating that we not only haven't hit commercial release yet, but also won't be getting there with Uprising either.
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 2474	Posted - 2013.04.14 10:36:00 - [2] - Quote ALM1GHTY STATIUS wrote: Garrett Blacknova wrote: ALM1GHTY STATIUS wrote: Over not getting reimbursed for game-launch on the aurum I bought. I recommend anyone else do the same if this pissed you off. Got a source confirming the game has launched? Because I'm sure a few minutes of searching will provide multiple confirmed sources stating that we not only haven't hit commercial release yet, but also won't be getting there with Uprising either. CCP said no more wipes of any kind which includes AUR and they're CHANGING the description of their items on the marketplace AFTER people purchased them. In the real world, with the Merc Pack, they're still legally bound to the terms given at the time of purchase. In-game, "Welcome to New Eden" applies. None of that proves that we've reached commercial release, and none of it confirms that CCP aren't planning to honour their legal obligations. In fact, there's plenty of evidence to say that they're working on a plan to resolve the issues with the Merc Pack.
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 2474	Posted - 2013.04.14 10:40:00 - [3] - Quote JL3Eleven wrote: Did the Game Stop Merc Pack info every change? I believe last week it was still the origional statement. I know it hadn't last I heard, but I don't live in a country with Gamestop, so I can't go down the road and check. I can safely say that most countries will apply the responsibility for this on Gamestop if CCP have advised them (which they supposedly have) of the change. So Gamestop will be paying for those refunds out of their own pockets, or finding a way to make the Merc Pack the product they sold, which will probably involve interesting problems for them.
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 2474	Posted - 2013.04.14 11:09:00 - [4] - Quote xaerael Kabiel wrote: Legal, Legal, Legally. I keep hearing this on this subject, but how many of you have actually sought legal advice on this subject? Got a friend whose mother is a lawyer, and has been through similar cases to this one more than once, all of which were resolved in the customer's favour. Asked her to look at the original wording of the Merc Pack compared with the current wording, and got her to look at multiple official sources - from both Sony and CCP - stating that the game isn't commercially released yet. She says there's a really solid case. I also had a friend who's in a law degree doing a case study specifically based around online purchases and the relevant laws, and he can't see any possible way for a lawsuit to fail if CCP don't give some form of refund of Merc Pack content to the purchasers who bought it with the original terms. Does that count? Quote: Also, "commercial release" isn't the same as "out of beta". The game was technically commercially released when it went live on tranquillity and "no more resets or wipes" were announced (note... "no more RESETS"). An AUR reset happened then, just as promised. As mentioned, both CCP and Sony have gone on record, publicly, stating that the game isn't yet commercially released. When people approach Sony about the issue, they specifically refuse to get involved until commercial release. When people have been arguing that the game is commercially released, CCP have said no, and in a thread where people were discussing the wording of the Human Endurance event's original posting, there was mention of Uprising "leading into commercial release" and CCP directly stated that Uprising WILL NOT BE THE RELEASE BUILD.
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 2475	Posted - 2013.04.14 12:37:00 - [5] - Quote Ryder Azorria wrote: 1: I'm guessing your friends mom didn't read the EULA (I have. Spoiler: you're screwed.) EULA wrote: You are responsible for reviewing the Fees section of the Game for changes in the Fee or payment terms. If a change is unacceptable to you, you may, as your sole and exclusive remedy, terminate the EULA and close your Account as described in section 13 below. You are responsible for paying all applicable taxes and for all hardware, software, Internet service, and other costs you incur to access the System. No, she didn't read the EULA. There's a good reason for that. It's not relevant to the purchase agreement, the contents of which include the product description as it stood at the time of purchase. Doesn't matter what civilised country you're applying the laws for - I'd say "even" Britain, but "especially" might fit better, since they offer better consumer protection than most US states, in which this is still not legal - but you can't retroactively use a digital product's EULA to get out of ANY detail included in a purchase agreement. Spoiler: The product description in an online store legally comprises a part of the purchase agreement.
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 2475	Posted - 2013.04.14 13:15:00 - [6] - Quote Ryder Azorria wrote: Garrett Blacknova wrote: Ryder Azorria wrote: 1: I'm guessing your friends mom didn't read the EULA (I have. Spoiler: you're screwed.) EULA wrote: You are responsible for reviewing the Fees section of the Game for changes in the Fee or payment terms. If a change is unacceptable to you, you may, as your sole and exclusive remedy, terminate the EULA and close your Account as described in section 13 below. You are responsible for paying all applicable taxes and for all hardware, software, Internet service, and other costs you incur to access the System. No, she didn't read the EULA. There's a good reason for that. It's not relevant to the purchase agreement, the contents of which include the product description as it stood at the time of purchase. Doesn't matter what civilised country you're applying the laws for - I'd say "even" Britain, but "especially" might fit better, since they offer better consumer protection than most US states, in which this is still not legal - but you can't retroactively use a digital product's EULA to get out of ANY detail included in a purchase agreement. Spoiler: The product description in an online store legally comprises a part of the purchase agreement. By British law as well as US, NZ, Australian and most other countries that actually have consumer laws with any possibility of application to online purchases. You're right, under the various consumer laws that CCP is bound by, they are legally obligated to refund merc packs bought online through gamestop and the like (not anything bought through the game it's self as per section 4 of the EULA) HOWEVER Those legal rights are waived by signing the EULA (section 3 para 3). EULA wrote: Upon termination of this beta, CCP may, in its sole discretion, delete or destroy all characters, character attributes, skills, and items acquired during the beta. As a participant in the beta, you acknowledge and agree you have no right to retain characters or their attributes, skills, or other acquired items. EDIT: Anyone who bought a merc pack through gamestop or similar, and did NOT sign the EULA are in fact entitled to a full refund, but since they have not used any of the items or aurum by virtue of not actually playing the game, it makes absolutely no difference to them at all. If you "acquired" the Merc Pack through gameplay, rather than purchasing it online through PSN or Gamestop (or in-store in the case of Gamestop), this would be relevant. I don't know of anyone who did, so it's not at all applicable to the Merc Pack. The purchase agreement is legally binding REGARDLESS OF WHAT ANY EULA CONTENT MIGHT STATE ABOUT CCP'S RIGHT TO CHANGE THINGS. There's significant legal precedent in many countries - including CCP's chosen jurisdiction - for EULAs to be overruled by purchase agreements. By my own local laws, even the EULA's claim to apply British law can't be enforced when I'm questioning something in the purchase agreement, and my local laws (which are almost identical to British law anyway) are applicable. And by those laws, I'm entitled, regardless of the contents of any post-purchase EULA, or even a pre-purchase EULA that was made separate from the purchase itself, to what I was offered when I bought the product.
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 2477	Posted - 2013.04.14 13:49:00 - [7] - Quote Ryder Azorria wrote: Garrett Blacknova wrote: If you "acquired" the Merc Pack through gameplay, rather than purchasing it online through PSN or Gamestop (or in-store in the case of Gamestop), this would be relevant. I don't know of anyone who did, so it's not at all applicable to the Merc Pack in any situation that I've heard of as a possibility. The purchase agreement is legally binding REGARDLESS OF WHAT ANY EULA CONTENT MIGHT STATE ABOUT CCP'S RIGHT TO CHANGE THINGS. There's significant legal precedent in many countries - including CCP's chosen jurisdiction - for EULAs to be overruled by purchase agreements. By my own local laws, even the EULA's claim to apply British law can't be enforced when I'm questioning something in the purchase agreement, and my local laws (which are almost identical to British law anyway) are applicable. And by those laws, I'm entitled, regardless of the contents of any post-purchase EULA, or even a pre-purchase EULA that was made separate from the purchase itself, to what I was offered when I bought the product. While I don't have access to the resources to disprove you, and while I know that there is precedent for EULAs being overruled, I kinda doubt you have legal precedent for this exact scenario, ie. "explicitly signing away any previous or future legal rights in this matter with a legally binding document" - though if there is, wtf?! Purchase agreements are also legally binding, and are legally binding OUTSIDE of the limitations of EULAs, which are only binding within the confines of the purchased product. When you buy a Merc Pack, that purchase agreement - which includes the product description at the time of purchase - supercedes any EULA because it's applicable outside of the content itself, while the EULA isn't. Someone who agreed to the EULA before buying the Merc Pack is still legally entitled to what the Merc Pack description said at the time of purchase, in spite of them having "no legal rights" with regard to the content of the beta. The Merc Pack purchase occured OUTSIDE the beta, so any EULA relating to the beta is irrelevant.
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 2484	Posted - 2013.04.14 18:53:00 - [8] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Look at it this way... Lets say the Merc Pack's only item was an Golden Assault Rifle. Do you get a Second Golden Rifle on commercial release? or Keep the same one? The specifics of the description being questioned don't say you get your Merc Pack contents all over again, it says you get them "credited back in full". With that in mind, assuming this Golden Rifle is a BPC, you would be entitled to a replacement Golden Rifle if you had used (and lost) the original, or if you had assigned it to an account you later deleted. If you still had the Rifle, you wouldn't now have 2, but if you no longer had it, you would be entitled to a new one. If it's a BPO, you're only entitled to the "credit" of a new Rifle if you've managed to lose the original. Assigning it to a character then deleting said character, for example. In either case, it's possible and perfectly legitimate for all the Merc Pack contents to be "reset" instead of a piece-by-piece refund. Everything on your account that came from the pack gets wiped, and you get it all back to reassign however you choose. CCP could also look at each item in the pack for each player and provide them with replacements of anything that's been destroyed, but leave the already-assigned unused items in their current state. Also, while they're perfectly within their rights to do so, I doubt CCP would offend their early-adopting customers by offering to honour the legal obligations of the Merc Pack only in conjunction with a skill reset. If they were offering to wipe ONLY the SP earnings that had been boosted using the Merc Pack's booster, or boosters purchased with Merc Pack Aurum, then it would be fair. If they offered to refund everything except boosters, then it would be fair - and could be explained in both a lore-based and a legally-valid manner to cover all bases for why a valid equivalent to your boosters is still present on your account and there's no need to credit those items back. And I've seen a claim that Sony have somehow magically "invalidated" all purchases under the previous terms. Unless they plan to refund EVERYONE (including Gamestop customers), I'm pretty sure that isn't how it works.