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Beren Hurin
OMNI Endeavors
O.M.N.I. Initiative
359
   |
Posted - 2013.04.12 17:31:00 -
[1] - Quote
I hear some commonly held vews about the costs and benefits of shield vs. armor tanking fits and I think that people don't think too much deeper than some commonly stated views on these. I think the below thoughts will hold even when the new suits come along. I would like to summarize my thoughts in axioms backed up by illustrations that rebut some common beliefs which will serve as the TL;DR (all bold info) of this all. I'm not trying to establish any beliefs about whether armor or shields are better, but that they should be thought of more clearly in the form of the kind of playstyle that they allow.
---------------------
Belief #1: Shields feel safer because they recharge faster than having armor repair modules.
"Subjectively maybe, but mathematically, only sometimes..." Recharge/repair should really be thought about in terms of liabilities and 'cycle time'. BY cycle time I mean the amount of repiars done over the length of time it takes to perform a whole repair. With shields, you shouldn't start to think of your repairs as starting the moment the shields come back. You can be shot at the entire time, you should be concerned about HP this entire time. So shield recharge rate starts ticking as soon as your shield stops dropping.
Example- I lost all of my shields on my assault suit. I had 2 complex extenders bringing my shield HP to 321 (with max shield skills). My shield recharge rate is 29 HP/s, but I have a 10 second SDD. This means that it will take 10 seconds for them to START, then an additional 11 seconds to fully recharge. Assuming I take no damage during the cycle. I'm repping 321HP in 21 seconds or 11.1 HP/s.
IMPORTANT POINT: 2 Complex armor repairer modules will rep 11.5 HP/s regardless of combat damage. Even militia armor repair tools outperform this. Non scout shield buffers have a hard time substantially outperforming just 2 lowslot modules.
AXIOM I: AVERAGE repair rates between armor repair and sheild repair CAN scale equally (but with some tradeoffs).
COROLLARY IA: If you are taking cover to recharge shield, you might as well be using that time to repair armor.
COROLALRY IB: If you aren't taking cover to repair armor, your armor HP buffer either wasn't efficientyly used, or is dangerously small.
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Belief #2: I can be more aggressive as a shield tank because I can move faster than an armor tank and can KEEP getting shield.
"Sort of...but not totally". This all depends on how you define aggression. The clearest way I can illustrate this is by again pointing at recharge times (and depleted shields). If a player with 2 complex armor reppers (player A) trades equal damage against another with none (player B), for the 15 or so seconds player B took cover to reposition/recharge shield, that's nearly 170 armor A repped, while player A is repping shield at at least the same rate as player B.
AXIOM II: RELIABILE repair rates and buffer sizes are the most helpful determinants of aggression
COROLLARY IIA: Controlling YOUR OWN 'repair liability' will increase you aggression.
COROLLARY IIB: Controlling your ENEMY's 'repair liability' will decrease their aggression.
I hope that the above information, so far clearly shows the following...
The buffer-shield tank's biggest liability is that its depletion will drastically reduce its reliability and some weapons can quickly destroy it.
The buffer-armor tank's biggest liability is that it's probably sacrificing shield HP, and can't be repaired, and is slower.
The active-tank's (armor or shield) biggest liability is that it's sacrificing some buffer for speed and reliable repair rates. However while the armor repair is constant, the shield repair can be interrupted.
This brings me to my last point...
---------------------
Belief #3: You should fit the biggest tank that you can
"...Could you rephrase that please?" I don't think this is an articulate way to put this point. Instead, think about what you need to do on the battlefield to accomplish your goals. If you are using an "in and out" weapon, you should have the kind of tank that lets you apply quick spurts of damage relatively quickly. You shouldn't have to wait very long to completely heal. Otherwise, your tank isn't really optimally matching your role. Similarly, if you are going to be engaging from far off, it is much easier to mitigate the danger of shields or of having a small HP buffer. Instead...
AXIOM III: You should have the tank that best fits your role.
COROLARRY IIIA: The faster you want to attack, the faster you should recharge.
COROLARRY IIIB: The harder/longer you want to attack/risk exposure, the bigger buffer you should have.
---------------------
Once you start to understand the nuances of the different flavors of tank you can start to feel the 'cadence' that it allows you to attack in, how long they can take different weapons' bursts for, the types of situations it can get into, and how to mitigate against its weaknesses.
I look forward to your additional thoughts! |
Bones McGavins
Sanmatar Kelkoons
Minmatar Republic
63
|
Posted - 2013.04.12 19:25:00 -
[2] - Quote
There is also the expectation of what sort of damage and what damage amounts you will receive in your role. For example, if I am a lazer users, I can expect to take quick bursts of damage from snipers, or more prolonged damage from lazer users. With this in mind, it makes sense to focus on armor with enough buffer to withstand most sniper shots.
And shield rep doesnt matter if you dont "survive". Shield repping helps get you back in the fight quicker, but it doesnt increase your survivability (much, the flip side is if you get attacked before shields can repair). Armor reps actively increase surviability. In essense they actually expand your buffer since they are going as soon as some damage is taken. If a gunfight lasts 10 seconds, your repair actually adds 10 seconds of repair value to your buffer. |
0 Try Harder
Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz
Noir. Mercenary Group
230
|
Posted - 2013.04.12 20:03:00 -
[3] - Quote
Beren Hurin wrote:IMPORTANT POINT: [u]2 Complex armor repairer modules will rep 11.5 HP/s regardless of combat damage.
Did you mean something else? If you look at the module in the game, it says 5 HP/s. You also have to understand that armor reps take up a low slot.
Again, go back into the game and look at the shield regulators. They reduce the shield recharge delay by 25% (both depleted and normal). I usually stick only one armor rep on my suit, unless I know I have 24/7 logi support.
Beren Hurin wrote:COROLLARY IA: If you are taking cover to recharge shield, you might as well be using that time to repair armor.
If you're not taking cover than you're probably getting shot. Otherwise, you didn't need to take cover to let your shields recharge, you did it for some other reason. Even if you equip four passive armor rep modules, it is not enough to save you from a duvolle or baloc pounding you in the face.
Beren Hurin wrote:I can be more aggressive as a shield tank because I can move faster than an armor tank and can KEEP getting shield.
"Sort of...but not totally". This all depends on how you define aggression.
You should look at time spent in combat, and the combat effectiveness of a player during that time. If you do the smart thing, which is what everyone does, you'll take advantage of both to maximize your combat time and efficiency.
Shields recharge faster, and having more shield does not reduce your movement speed like armor does. By recharge faster, look at the HP/s gained from shield, then compare it to armor.
If your shield is depleted, your armor will start to take damage. It seems as though you only looked at armor vs shield instead of realizing that you have both at the same time. A player with high shield recharge and one armor repair (instead of multiple) can usually get more or the same HP/s as someone who went 100% armor rep modules. Why? Because the shield provides a buffer. Armor only takes damage when your shields are depleted.
Increasing the shield recharge delay/rate quickly allows your shields to go up. So what you did was look at time in combat while getting hit into armor damage, and used that calculation alone. What you should do is see what the actual time that you are taking armor damage is. Slower shield recharge = more damage to armor. Higher shield recharge = armor is safer for longer.
I do not know if you have played a heavy and an assault suit or scout, but if you do you will realize that heavy suits are slower. That is because they are armor tanked. You might also notice that heavies get shot a lot more than assault suits do. Yes, this is partially due to the larger hit box, but it also due to the fact that they are slow. It's funny watching a heavy run and then stop every 5 seconds because he's out of breath, or he's too fat to jump.
Armor tanking your assault suit revolves around the same idea. If you are slow, you cannot get to cover as quickly as someone else, like maybe a scout can. Speed is huge in this game. The slower you are, the more damage you take.
So what does this mean? Armor tanking makes you take more damage (slow) and can spend less time in combat. Armor tanks have to leave the fight sooner because they take longer to reach safety, and they have to stay out of the fight longer than shield tanks do, because shield tanks can quickly recharge their shield and continue armor rep while fighting. |
0 Try Harder
Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz
Noir. Mercenary Group
230
|
Posted - 2013.04.12 20:07:00 -
[4] - Quote
The amount of time spent in combat, the probability that cover will be "x" meters away, the team composition, etc. etc. are all variables that are not easily quantified.
Spend less time with your spreadsheets, and more time playing the game.  |
Beren Hurin
OMNI Endeavors
O.M.N.I. Initiative
363
|
Posted - 2013.04.15 13:31:00 -
[5] - Quote
0 Try Harder wrote:Beren Hurin wrote:IMPORTANT POINT: [u]2 Complex armor repairer modules will rep 11.5 HP/s regardless of combat damage. Did you mean something else?....
I think we answered this. This was based on 2 repairer modules. My straight up comparison here was doing the math compared to an assault Type II/B/vk.0's max shield recharge rate. I assumed that it would take 10 seconds total to recharge a broken shield and 10 seconds to wait until this recharge. For the 10 seconds you are waiting there, your armor is still vulnerable. Yes... regulators can get the delat to around 5 seconds or less. (At the cost of a lot of CPU see by examples below)
0 Try Harder wrote:
Increasing the shield recharge delay/rate quickly allows your shields to go up. So what you did was look at time in combat while getting hit into armor damage, and used that calculation alone. What you should do is see what the actual time that you are taking armor damage is. Slower shield recharge = more damage to armor. Higher shield recharge = armor is safer for longer.
Again you are hitting on the same point here...but what I'm saying is that when YOU are doing the math you are JUST looking at the time that the shields are recharging. If your shield gets 'scraped' that reduces the time your shields will recharge, if the shield is depleted, it reduces your recharge rate. The MAX recharge rate is what you are repping during a recharge cycle. With a complex recharger, an assault can get this up to 40+ HP/s and more with another recharger. But averaged over the delay time, that averages ~25 HP/s. If you are prone to getting scraped just a bit at any point, this quickly drops below <15 HP/s.
0 Try Harder wrote:Beren Hurin wrote:COROLLARY IA: If you are taking cover to recharge shield, you might as well be using that time to repair armor. If you're not taking cover than you're probably getting shot. Otherwise, you didn't need to take cover to let your shields recharge, you did it for some other reason. Even if you equip four passive armor rep modules, it is not enough to save you from a duvolle or baloc pounding you in the face.
I don't think you get my point here. All I'm saying is that if you are in cover to let your shield recharge, having armor recharge as well would be better than none recharging at all. And if you can spare the speed hit and CPU/PG adding some armor tank helps. (This is basically an argument for a more or less hybrid tank. Which somehow you interpreted this as an argument against...) |
Beren Hurin
OMNI Endeavors
O.M.N.I. Initiative
363
|
Posted - 2013.04.15 14:38:00 -
[6] - Quote
0 Try Harder wrote:
So what does this mean? Armor tanking makes you take more damage (slow) and can spend less time in combat. Armor tanks have to leave the fight sooner because they take longer to reach safety, and they have to stay out of the fight longer than shield tanks do, because shield tanks can quickly recharge their shield and continue armor rep while fighting.
I agree that armor tanks will always be slower and that is a pretty significant disadvantage. I still think that they can have:
1) a more cost effective tank which means...
2) they can hit harder for at least the same amount of time as a shield tank or
3) provide more flexibility with a logibro due to getting ~75% of their tank on a rez and also
4) Provide more WP (>repaired armor/more likely res) to team in the form of extra CPU/PG for better equipment or utility modules (codebreakers/range enhancers).
Examples for comparison.
So I'm open to being told that "this is not how it's done" but I'm probably seeing this from a biased (i.e. logibro) point of view. I'm going to compare 2 shield tanks, 2 armor tanks, and 2 hybrid tanks. I'll basically only be concerned with the tanking mods for now. Let me know about my math. But you'll see the stats that I'm using for comparison below. I'll call them...
Full Buffer Assault vk.0 (Armor A) - 4 complex plates
Fast Buffer Assault vk.0 (Armor B) - 2 complex plates 2 complex repairers
Full Buffer Assault vk.1 (Shield A) - 4 complex ext, 2 complex regs.
Fast Buffer Shield vk. 1 (Shield B) 3 complex ext, 1 rech, 2 regs.
Hybrid vk. 0 (Hybrid A) - 2 ext, 1 rech, 2 plates, 2 reps.
Hybrid vk. 1 (Hybrid B) - 3 ext, 1 rech, 1 reg, 1 plate, 1 rep.
First lets look purely at the full buffer amount for each, with a little nuance for now...the effective HP against an AR.
Stats- Shield HP/Armor HP [AR shield EHP / AR Armor EHP] (total HP/total AR EHP)
Armor A - 156 / 793 [140/872] (949/1012)
Armor B - 156 / 506 [140/556] (662/697)
Shield A - 611 / 131 [549/144] (742/620)
Shield B - 529 / 131 [476/144] (660/620)
Hybrid A - 321 / 505 [289/556] (826/844)
Hybrid B - 446 / 274 [401/301] (720/702)
These numbers are self explanatory. The pure shield tanks are the worst when it comes to total EHP against AR. This is assuming they have their full buffer. What you are probably thinking is, "Yeah, but shield tanks can get their shield back quicker than armor buffers/fast buffers!!" So that analysis comes in a minute, but first lets look at each tanks fitting cost as a % of total fittings on max skilled suits...
Fit- CPU / PG [% CPU/ % PG]
Armor A - 120 / 48 [32%/64%]
Armor B - 150 / 46 [40%/61%]
Shield A - 286 / 50 [69%/61%]
Shield B - 310 / 39 [75%/47%]
Hybrid A - 336 / 68 [90%/91%]
Hybrid B - 350 / 59 [85%/72%]
Here we see that the hybrid fits are extremely restrictive, requireing much more skimping on equipment/weapons than the armor fits. The shield fits also have less room (in addition to 1 less 'utiltiy' slot in their LS).
Finally we get to repair rates. This gets into the tactics, squad relationships, and the relative values of suit speed. I'm just here to give stats, and then let us use/discuss them as we see fit. New page for this part... |
Beren Hurin
OMNI Endeavors
O.M.N.I. Initiative
363
|
Posted - 2013.04.15 15:44:00 -
[7] - Quote
Finally we get to what I call 'tank speed' which has to do with the rate of recharge over time. This affects how often you can charge into battle, how long you can do this, and what are the risks for this....working on this post currently... |
Spectral Clone
Vacuum Cleaner. LLC
0
|
Posted - 2013.04.15 16:52:00 -
[8] - Quote
Really interesting stuff here :-) i've been thinking about making some tool to determine tanking quality. Very interesting to compare which combo is the best bang for the buck, given a passive skill set. |
Beren Hurin
OMNI Endeavors
O.M.N.I. Initiative
363
|
Posted - 2013.04.15 19:58:00 -
[9] - Quote
I think the most interesting comparison is Armor B and Shield A.
EHP
Armor B has 662 HP but 697 AR EHP (with a -20% speed)
Shield A has 742 HP but 693 AR EHP (with a bigger chunk able to be fluxed)
Time to charge (depleted cycle):
Armor B gets 335 HP every 15.6 seconds
Shield A gets 661 HP every 27.2 seconds (or really 308 HP in the Armor suit's 16 seconds( 11 seconds of charging after 5 second delay))
So they really go head to head for sustained HP, while the the Armor will have the slight advantage in EHP and fitting space, while the shield will have the advantage in speed. In this case, if the armor suit can scratch the shield suit's armor (with his better damage weapon) and get away, he will have a significantly better advantage in the next engagement. |
0 Try Harder
Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz
Noir. Mercenary Group
235
|
Posted - 2013.04.15 23:36:00 -
[10] - Quote
Spectral Clone wrote:Really interesting stuff here :-) i've been thinking about making some tool to determine tanking quality. Very interesting to compare which combo is the best bang for the buck, given a passive skill set.
....
You should see him play before you make a judgement on his info :P
He puts flux grenades vs shield, but forgets that there are explosive grenades for armor, and a ton of stuff like that. His fits are terrible.
If his data is valid, he should be an awesome player, no?  |
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Mithridates VI
DUST 411
838
|
Posted - 2013.04.15 23:38:00 -
[11] - Quote
0 Try Harder wrote:Spectral Clone wrote:Really interesting stuff here :-) i've been thinking about making some tool to determine tanking quality. Very interesting to compare which combo is the best bang for the buck, given a passive skill set. If his data is valid, he should be an awesome player, no?
Not necessarily. What issues do you have with his data?
Nice post, Beren... and great to read the challenges to it from 0 Try Harder. |
Beren Hurin
OMNI Endeavors
O.M.N.I. Initiative
364
|
Posted - 2013.04.15 23:48:00 -
[12] - Quote
0 Try Harder wrote:Spectral Clone wrote:Really interesting stuff here :-) i've been thinking about making some tool to determine tanking quality. Very interesting to compare which combo is the best bang for the buck, given a passive skill set. .... You should see him play before you make a judgement on his info :P He puts flux grenades vs shield, but forgets that there are explosive grenades for armor, and a ton of stuff like that. His fits are terrible. If his data is valid, he should be an awesome player, no?
Post your godfit Try. Otherwise I'll just assue you are trolling and have nothing to offer the community. I've never claimed that I'm some special player, if anything I've given clear indication of my bias. I am a logi bro and I want armor to rep. I also want as diverse of a game as possible and really believe that there is a depth to this game beyond just an all assault-rifle shield-tanking alpha-striking meta.
Please be constructive. |
0 Try Harder
Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz
Noir. Mercenary Group
235
|
Posted - 2013.04.16 14:18:00 -
[13] - Quote
Beren Hurin wrote:Post your godfit Try.
Sure, I'll do that later.
Beren Hurin wrote:Otherwise I'll just assue you are trolling and have nothing to offer the community.
Awww, but now I'm so tempted not to! |
Beren Hurin
OMNI Endeavors
O.M.N.I. Initiative
366
|
Posted - 2013.04.16 15:18:00 -
[14] - Quote
0 Try Harder wrote:Beren Hurin wrote:Post your godfit Try. Sure, I'll do that later. Beren Hurin wrote:Otherwise I'll just assue you are trolling and have nothing to offer the community. Awww, but now I'm so tempted not to!
While your waiting you should check out this magazine |
0 Try Harder
Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz
Noir. Mercenary Group
235
|
Posted - 2013.04.16 15:29:00 -
[15] - Quote
Beren Hurin wrote:While your waiting you should check out this magazine
Yah, I already had it linked to me long before this. I'll read it eventually. |
Cosgar
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar
DARKSTAR ARMY
14
|
Posted - 2013.04.17 05:28:00 -
[16] - Quote
Excellent theories OP! Once uprising comes out, your point of view on Armor vs Shields will be even more relevant with the passive HP regen on armor and rumored resistance modules. |
Beren Hurin
OMNI Endeavors
O.M.N.I. Initiative
367
|
Posted - 2013.04.17 11:33:00 -
[17] - Quote
One last selling point of armor is that it means that you can get instantly around 65% of your total HP back with a proto injector if you have most of your HP in armor. |
0 Try Harder
Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz
Noir. Mercenary Group
240
|
Posted - 2013.04.17 15:00:00 -
[18] - Quote
https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=69161
I posted some stuff about HP and tanking in that thread, I'll post more later.
Mithridates VI wrote:0 Try Harder wrote:If his data is valid, he should be an awesome player, no? Not necessarily. What issues do you have with his data?
My issue is that he's missing multiple things, and that he is not accurately representing some incredibly important things like movement speed.
It might be that an in-game formula is off (it's beta, and there have been many recorded discrepancies) or something similar. Shield tanking, or doing a hybrid with a small amount of armor tanking (ie one armor rep and *sometimes* even one basic armor plate) is significantly better than armor tanking.
IMO instead of trying to prove that mathematically armor tanking should be better, he should do some testing (if he wants to) and figure out why it is not.
I'm not the best player in the game, and he is most certainly not the best player in the game. If you're trying to figure out what sneakers make someone run the fastest, would you test your hypothesis on a 400kg man who can barely walk, or on Olympic athletes who run?
If anything, he should be a researcher. Right now he is making up data to fill in what he does not have.
You can play however you want, but do you want to play like this guy, or like the shield tanked players?
Sure, this post is harsh, but I'm not one of the more subtle players. If you made this thread in another section of forums, like General, and did not apply the [Guide] tag to it, I wouldn't have said anything. It's the rookie training grounds. Imagine some new player coming here looking for advice, reading this guide, and thinking, "oh! If I switch to armor tanking, I'll have an advantage over shield tanked players!" It's just going to the poor guy worse.
This might change in the new build, as CCP is re-balancing everything, but right now shield tank > armor in almost every situation. |
Cosgar
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar
DARKSTAR ARMY
22
|
Posted - 2013.04.18 06:49:00 -
[19] - Quote
Where to you find room for shield modules when your high slots are full of stacked damage mods? Armor isn't inferior to shields, just different. For example, my laser build. Since I know I'm going to spend more time melting people from a distance rather than running and gunning, high slots go to damage mods on an A-Series dropsuit and a complex plate/repper on the lows. The shield is just a buffer before someone gets to my armor and I can usually survive two hits from an unstacked sniper at full health while surviving a few more split seconds from being melted by another (non Viziam) laser. In a context where mobility isn't an issue and I need a huge buffer, armor works. Also, flux grenades are bastards. |
Beren Hurin
OMNI Endeavors
O.M.N.I. Initiative
368
|
Posted - 2013.04.18 11:34:00 -
[20] - Quote
1) I'm thinking more and more that these scrambler rifles are going to make all of your shield tanks pretty hellish.
2) CCP BLam has confirmed that they have fixed logi-LAVs and their dropsuit repairs will be back in Uprising. THis will help armor tanks A TON now too. It will definitely mean that they will quickly get better armor repairs than shield tanks, unless they do also rep sheild. |
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0 Try Harder
Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz
Noir. Mercenary Group
252
|
Posted - 2013.04.18 15:50:00 -
[21] - Quote
Cosgar wrote:Where to you find room for shield modules when your high slots are full of stacked damage mods?
You do not, and that's a reason why it is inferior. Stacking damage mods < stacking shields.
Beren Hurin wrote:2) CCP BLam has confirmed that they have fixed logi-LAVs and their dropsuit repairs will be back in Uprising. THis will help armor tanks A TON now too. It will definitely mean that they will quickly get better armor repairs than shield tanks, unless they do also rep sheild.
Actually, that's MUCH better for shield that it is for armor. Armor already has logi repair tool, but shield does not. The caldari LAV has shield transportation. (Shield transportation is like remote shield repair.)
The one downside of shield is that it is not a passive regen that is always on. By giving vehicles or infantry a tool that allows for shield regen even while in combat, it negates that disadvantage.
Nice try beren, but you need to try a little harder =] |
Beren Hurin
OMNI Endeavors
O.M.N.I. Initiative
372
|
Posted - 2013.04.18 17:31:00 -
[22] - Quote
0 Try Harder wrote:Cosgar wrote:Where to you find room for shield modules when your high slots are full of stacked damage mods? You do not, and that's a reason why it is inferior. Stacking damage mods < stacking shields. Beren Hurin wrote:2) CCP BLam has confirmed that they have fixed logi-LAVs and their dropsuit repairs will be back in Uprising. THis will help armor tanks A TON now too. It will definitely mean that they will quickly get better armor repairs than shield tanks, unless they do also rep sheild. Actually, that's MUCH better for shield that it is for armor. Armor already has logi repair tool, but shield does not. The caldari LAV has shield transportation. (Shield transportation is like remote shield repair.) The one downside of shield is that it is not a passive regen that is always on. By giving vehicles or infantry a tool that allows for shield regen even while in combat, it negates that disadvantage. Nice try beren, but you need to try a little harder =]
I was operating under the assumption that they were armor only. If that's the case then it will still mean that shield tanks will have a decent advantage with them. I'm curious to know how exactly their mechanics will work.
You still didn't respond to your impending scrambler rifle problem though... |
0 Try Harder
Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz
Noir. Mercenary Group
252
|
Posted - 2013.04.18 18:37:00 -
[23] - Quote
They may rework everything and make it so that both are viable options. Right now stacking damage mods on an armor tanked suit does get you kills, but it does not seem to be viable in team vs team combat. It is better suited for solo play.
I have no clue how the scrambler rifle will work, but I look forward to it. I love scrambler pistols already. I have a pure scrambler pistol alt! I'm not sure what the mechanics will be for the scrambler rifle, but the pistol deals 450% damage to shield for a head shot, and 350% to armor for a head shot. Although that is a 100% difference, if you have the ability to place multiple head shots it is one of the highest DPS weapons in the game.
The potential problem that I foresee with the scrambler rifle is its rate of fire, range and dps. For some reason the breach variants have shorter range that high RoF assault versions. After doing a lot of testing with the scrambler pistols, I have come to the conclusion that the breach variant seems to overall be worse than the assault. Occasionally the breach pistol can out perform the assault, but if your target has high HP, is far away, or you have multiple targets, the breach does not make the cut.
The breach variants seem to be exceptionally poor when dealing with multiple targets. *pistols only, I have not sufficiently tested other breach weapons in this specific area* As a general rule, in team combat, it seems like the side with the best position, highest HP, and highest DPS wins. Do not misinterpret this to mean just one weapon, it has to be everything together. A laser backing up ARs with possible longer/shorter range support can pump out so much more damage than a bunch of guys all using an AR.
If I had to guess, I would bet that the scrambler rifle will be a better team weapon than it would be as a solo weapon. Kind of like mass drivers and lasers. Those weapons perform moderately to poor in 1v1 combat, but when combined with additional AR foot soldiers, those weapons can take full advantage of their capabilities.
The game already has laser rifles, which can melt shield tanked players at long range. It does not always have the ability to finish targets, but that is what other troops are for. The scrambler rifle might be able to finish off targets, or at least take a large portion of an enemy's shield out.
In almost all FPS games I do, I almost always gravitate to the low RoF, high damage and long range weapons. I was disappointed to find out that this type of weapon did not exist in DUST514. I did run around as a sniper when I first started, but I became frustrated with all the glitched terrain, and got bored with it. Running and gunning was fine, but I felt a bit guilty at it because there used to be a couple of things you could do which would make it so that the scope almost didn't move at all, even if you just opened up sights and were standing and strafing at the same time. I was also disappointed with the poor hit detection, and how many bullets enemies could absorb. The tac sniper rifle annoyed me because it's a high RoF weapon... what kind of sniper rifle is that? O_O
So to get back on track... lol
I expect the scrambler rifle to be a team-oriented weapon that is somewhat of a mix between an AR, sniper rifle and laser rifle. I'm not sure how much you have played other FPS games, but there's almost always a weapon that is like that. Harder to use, harder to aim, less dps than other rifles at close range, but it really shines in medium to long range combat. The question is will it have enough dps or an area that it excels at to make it useful at something?
Laser rifles are an odd weapon, and I've never used something like that before, where it overheats and does more damage the longer you hold it down and everything. The optimal range is far and it does little close too. It's just weird! There's really no other game that I can compare a similar weapon to it, so I cannot say how the addition of a scrambler rifle will change the balance.
Preferably it will be good at something, but the long range energy weapon role is already the laser rifle. I'm not sure if the scrambler rifle will replace it, or do something else.
It's not directly related to anything in this thread, but I have seen a bit of discussion that some people are having trouble with the mass driver. I guess I do not think it is that hard to use since there are weapons with similar mechanics in other games. I found this clip on youtube of the flak cannon Playing against bots is meh, but w/e, it will show the arc + explosion thing. (That's alt fire, primary is like a shotgun.)
And if you can, direct damage from mass driver rounds can do over 500 damage @_@ The splash damage done to the user is comparatively lower than what is done by similar weapons, so it's not like it is easy to kill yourself with it if you practice =].
In case you're wondering, my favorite gun is the ASMD Shock Rifle xD. If the scrambler rifle is like that... oooooomg!
Oh, and on another note, one thing that is important in other games is ammo conservation. This game makes spammy-the-clown high RoF weapons more attractive because it's easy to carry around a ton of ammo, especially if you and your teammates have nanohives. According to CCP, nanohives are the most purchased equipment item, and it's little wonder why. |
Beren Hurin
OMNI Endeavors
O.M.N.I. Initiative
372
|
Posted - 2013.04.18 19:07:00 -
[24] - Quote
0 Try Harder wrote:
In almost all FPS games I do, I almost always gravitate to the low RoF, high damage and long range weapons. I was disappointed to find out that this type of weapon did not exist in DUST514. I did run around as a sniper when I first started, but I became frustrated with all the glitched terrain, and got bored with it.
I was messing around with the GLU- Tac Assault Rifle with 2 damage mods, a complex extender, and some armor/armor repairs.
I feel like it SHOULD comfortably be fitting inside that meta that you are talking about with long range lethality but slower RoF. Its just that it kicks so hard. Just thinking about it now, I'm wondering if crouching helps...?
I have found MD to be a pretty dangerous weapon, but they are going to be changing with the advent of friendly fire. MD are my go-to choice, but like you said, they are a squad support weapon. It is harder to get as many kills with them because of the slow rate of fire, people will see your targets and help to finish the job you start. |
Kitten Commander
Ostrakon Agency
Gallente Federation
187
|
Posted - 2013.04.18 19:19:00 -
[25] - Quote
O - I like the information that you are giving out but I think one thing that I did have a question about is how playstyle could influence whether someone goes for an armor vs. a shield tank.
So far I have seen two main types of tanks (not counting the hiding railgun tankers which are basically snipers in a big metal box)
1 - The periphery tanker: Spends most of his/her time time rounding the edges of maps and pushes in with the infantry when needed. Mostly a harassment method that keeps the opposing team disorganized and focused on the tank.
2 - The frontline tanker: Does the initial push into an enemy controlled area to push the infantry into hiding and take a chunk out of them so that your team can then push in and take the objective. This type seems to rely heavily on support from infantry to take out AV as the opposing team either spawns with it or swaps fittings.
One last question - With sharpshooter going away as far as range extension, how do you think this will impact AV and a possible choice of a tank (impact of swarms vs. forge vs. plasma cannon)? |
0 Try Harder
Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz
Noir. Mercenary Group
254
|
Posted - 2013.04.18 19:52:00 -
[26] - Quote
Kitten Commander wrote:One last question - With sharpshooter going away as far as range extension, how do you think this will impact AV and a possible choice of a tank (impact of swarms vs. forge vs. plasma cannon)?
Oh, sorry XD I switched over to infantry for this thread, I was thinking about using a different term from tanking, and I guess I should have. Sorry about the confusion. Just tanking as in how much damage infantry can take :>
I have a feeling the change will not make a difference for AV. CCP seems to like the current balance. |
0 Try Harder
Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz
Noir. Mercenary Group
254
|
Posted - 2013.04.18 20:03:00 -
[27] - Quote
Beren Hurin wrote:I was messing around with the GLU- Tac Assault Rifle with 2 damage mods, a complex extender, and some armor/armor repairs.
I feel like it SHOULD comfortably be fitting inside that meta that you are talking about with long range lethality but slower RoF. Its just that it kicks so hard.
Yah, CCP killed the tac rifle =[ I guess it's actually kind of a good thing, since the Codewish is better than the Duvolle (how it fires.) So now people who want to use the best tac AR in the game do not have to spend AUR on tac rifles since they are all kind of bad.
I'm wondering if CCP will just remove tac ARs completely and switch the long range over to scrambler rifles.
Oh, and the tac AR actually has a high RoF. Some n00bs used modded controllers, but there were many people who could fire it almost as fast as a fully automatic AR. I'm not sure if they changed it, but you could hit the 750 RPM of the normal AR if you were fast enough. I think most players could at least do 8 shots per second, so that's 480 RPM even if you're slow. It might be a good chance to practice quickly pulling the trigger, but I feel like it's better to practice with scrambler pistols. If you get the pistol skill up, you'll be able to compete and win against good AR/SMG players if you can engage them at close range. You can't really use 500+ RPM with a tac AR anymore.
I meant slower RPM like 100-200ish or so =] The bolt action rifles were fun in the old games, that's like 60ish or less RPM, but there's no way CCP would put in a rifle with enough damage to make that useful.
edit: you don't have to practice solely in FPS games if you don't want to. I'm playing Mortal Combat right now, and you have to hit the buttons fairly quickly ^.^
Although I have been missing a few combos because I hit the buttons wayyyyyyy too fast LOL |
Kitten Commander
Ostrakon Agency
Gallente Federation
187
|
Posted - 2013.04.18 20:42:00 -
[28] - Quote
0 Try Harder wrote:Kitten Commander wrote:One last question - With sharpshooter going away as far as range extension, how do you think this will impact AV and a possible choice of a tank (impact of swarms vs. forge vs. plasma cannon)? Oh, sorry XD I switched over to infantry for this thread, I was thinking about using a different term from tanking, and I guess I should have. Sorry about the confusion. Just tanking as in how much damage infantry can take :> I have a feeling the change will not make a difference for AV. CCP seems to like the current balance.
No worries, will repost on your other thread when I have time later.
Gratzi |
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