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0 Try Harder
Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz
Noir. Mercenary Group
230
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Posted - 2013.04.12 20:03:00 -
[1] - Quote
Beren Hurin wrote:IMPORTANT POINT: [u]2 Complex armor repairer modules will rep 11.5 HP/s regardless of combat damage.
Did you mean something else? If you look at the module in the game, it says 5 HP/s. You also have to understand that armor reps take up a low slot.
Again, go back into the game and look at the shield regulators. They reduce the shield recharge delay by 25% (both depleted and normal). I usually stick only one armor rep on my suit, unless I know I have 24/7 logi support.
Beren Hurin wrote:COROLLARY IA: If you are taking cover to recharge shield, you might as well be using that time to repair armor.
If you're not taking cover than you're probably getting shot. Otherwise, you didn't need to take cover to let your shields recharge, you did it for some other reason. Even if you equip four passive armor rep modules, it is not enough to save you from a duvolle or baloc pounding you in the face.
Beren Hurin wrote:I can be more aggressive as a shield tank because I can move faster than an armor tank and can KEEP getting shield.
"Sort of...but not totally". This all depends on how you define aggression.
You should look at time spent in combat, and the combat effectiveness of a player during that time. If you do the smart thing, which is what everyone does, you'll take advantage of both to maximize your combat time and efficiency.
Shields recharge faster, and having more shield does not reduce your movement speed like armor does. By recharge faster, look at the HP/s gained from shield, then compare it to armor.
If your shield is depleted, your armor will start to take damage. It seems as though you only looked at armor vs shield instead of realizing that you have both at the same time. A player with high shield recharge and one armor repair (instead of multiple) can usually get more or the same HP/s as someone who went 100% armor rep modules. Why? Because the shield provides a buffer. Armor only takes damage when your shields are depleted.
Increasing the shield recharge delay/rate quickly allows your shields to go up. So what you did was look at time in combat while getting hit into armor damage, and used that calculation alone. What you should do is see what the actual time that you are taking armor damage is. Slower shield recharge = more damage to armor. Higher shield recharge = armor is safer for longer.
I do not know if you have played a heavy and an assault suit or scout, but if you do you will realize that heavy suits are slower. That is because they are armor tanked. You might also notice that heavies get shot a lot more than assault suits do. Yes, this is partially due to the larger hit box, but it also due to the fact that they are slow. It's funny watching a heavy run and then stop every 5 seconds because he's out of breath, or he's too fat to jump.
Armor tanking your assault suit revolves around the same idea. If you are slow, you cannot get to cover as quickly as someone else, like maybe a scout can. Speed is huge in this game. The slower you are, the more damage you take.
So what does this mean? Armor tanking makes you take more damage (slow) and can spend less time in combat. Armor tanks have to leave the fight sooner because they take longer to reach safety, and they have to stay out of the fight longer than shield tanks do, because shield tanks can quickly recharge their shield and continue armor rep while fighting. |
0 Try Harder
Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz
Noir. Mercenary Group
230
|
Posted - 2013.04.12 20:07:00 -
[2] - Quote
The amount of time spent in combat, the probability that cover will be "x" meters away, the team composition, etc. etc. are all variables that are not easily quantified.
Spend less time with your spreadsheets, and more time playing the game.  |
0 Try Harder
Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz
Noir. Mercenary Group
235
|
Posted - 2013.04.15 23:36:00 -
[3] - Quote
Spectral Clone wrote:Really interesting stuff here :-) i've been thinking about making some tool to determine tanking quality. Very interesting to compare which combo is the best bang for the buck, given a passive skill set.
....
You should see him play before you make a judgement on his info :P
He puts flux grenades vs shield, but forgets that there are explosive grenades for armor, and a ton of stuff like that. His fits are terrible.
If his data is valid, he should be an awesome player, no?  |
0 Try Harder
Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz
Noir. Mercenary Group
235
|
Posted - 2013.04.16 14:18:00 -
[4] - Quote
Beren Hurin wrote:Post your godfit Try.
Sure, I'll do that later.
Beren Hurin wrote:Otherwise I'll just assue you are trolling and have nothing to offer the community.
Awww, but now I'm so tempted not to! |
0 Try Harder
Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz
Noir. Mercenary Group
235
|
Posted - 2013.04.16 15:29:00 -
[5] - Quote
Beren Hurin wrote:While your waiting you should check out this magazine
Yah, I already had it linked to me long before this. I'll read it eventually. |
0 Try Harder
Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz
Noir. Mercenary Group
240
|
Posted - 2013.04.17 15:00:00 -
[6] - Quote
https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=69161
I posted some stuff about HP and tanking in that thread, I'll post more later.
Mithridates VI wrote:0 Try Harder wrote:If his data is valid, he should be an awesome player, no? Not necessarily. What issues do you have with his data?
My issue is that he's missing multiple things, and that he is not accurately representing some incredibly important things like movement speed.
It might be that an in-game formula is off (it's beta, and there have been many recorded discrepancies) or something similar. Shield tanking, or doing a hybrid with a small amount of armor tanking (ie one armor rep and *sometimes* even one basic armor plate) is significantly better than armor tanking.
IMO instead of trying to prove that mathematically armor tanking should be better, he should do some testing (if he wants to) and figure out why it is not.
I'm not the best player in the game, and he is most certainly not the best player in the game. If you're trying to figure out what sneakers make someone run the fastest, would you test your hypothesis on a 400kg man who can barely walk, or on Olympic athletes who run?
If anything, he should be a researcher. Right now he is making up data to fill in what he does not have.
You can play however you want, but do you want to play like this guy, or like the shield tanked players?
Sure, this post is harsh, but I'm not one of the more subtle players. If you made this thread in another section of forums, like General, and did not apply the [Guide] tag to it, I wouldn't have said anything. It's the rookie training grounds. Imagine some new player coming here looking for advice, reading this guide, and thinking, "oh! If I switch to armor tanking, I'll have an advantage over shield tanked players!" It's just going to the poor guy worse.
This might change in the new build, as CCP is re-balancing everything, but right now shield tank > armor in almost every situation. |
0 Try Harder
Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz
Noir. Mercenary Group
252
|
Posted - 2013.04.18 15:50:00 -
[7] - Quote
Cosgar wrote:Where to you find room for shield modules when your high slots are full of stacked damage mods?
You do not, and that's a reason why it is inferior. Stacking damage mods < stacking shields.
Beren Hurin wrote:2) CCP BLam has confirmed that they have fixed logi-LAVs and their dropsuit repairs will be back in Uprising. THis will help armor tanks A TON now too. It will definitely mean that they will quickly get better armor repairs than shield tanks, unless they do also rep sheild.
Actually, that's MUCH better for shield that it is for armor. Armor already has logi repair tool, but shield does not. The caldari LAV has shield transportation. (Shield transportation is like remote shield repair.)
The one downside of shield is that it is not a passive regen that is always on. By giving vehicles or infantry a tool that allows for shield regen even while in combat, it negates that disadvantage.
Nice try beren, but you need to try a little harder =] |
0 Try Harder
Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz
Noir. Mercenary Group
252
|
Posted - 2013.04.18 18:37:00 -
[8] - Quote
They may rework everything and make it so that both are viable options. Right now stacking damage mods on an armor tanked suit does get you kills, but it does not seem to be viable in team vs team combat. It is better suited for solo play.
I have no clue how the scrambler rifle will work, but I look forward to it. I love scrambler pistols already. I have a pure scrambler pistol alt! I'm not sure what the mechanics will be for the scrambler rifle, but the pistol deals 450% damage to shield for a head shot, and 350% to armor for a head shot. Although that is a 100% difference, if you have the ability to place multiple head shots it is one of the highest DPS weapons in the game.
The potential problem that I foresee with the scrambler rifle is its rate of fire, range and dps. For some reason the breach variants have shorter range that high RoF assault versions. After doing a lot of testing with the scrambler pistols, I have come to the conclusion that the breach variant seems to overall be worse than the assault. Occasionally the breach pistol can out perform the assault, but if your target has high HP, is far away, or you have multiple targets, the breach does not make the cut.
The breach variants seem to be exceptionally poor when dealing with multiple targets. *pistols only, I have not sufficiently tested other breach weapons in this specific area* As a general rule, in team combat, it seems like the side with the best position, highest HP, and highest DPS wins. Do not misinterpret this to mean just one weapon, it has to be everything together. A laser backing up ARs with possible longer/shorter range support can pump out so much more damage than a bunch of guys all using an AR.
If I had to guess, I would bet that the scrambler rifle will be a better team weapon than it would be as a solo weapon. Kind of like mass drivers and lasers. Those weapons perform moderately to poor in 1v1 combat, but when combined with additional AR foot soldiers, those weapons can take full advantage of their capabilities.
The game already has laser rifles, which can melt shield tanked players at long range. It does not always have the ability to finish targets, but that is what other troops are for. The scrambler rifle might be able to finish off targets, or at least take a large portion of an enemy's shield out.
In almost all FPS games I do, I almost always gravitate to the low RoF, high damage and long range weapons. I was disappointed to find out that this type of weapon did not exist in DUST514. I did run around as a sniper when I first started, but I became frustrated with all the glitched terrain, and got bored with it. Running and gunning was fine, but I felt a bit guilty at it because there used to be a couple of things you could do which would make it so that the scope almost didn't move at all, even if you just opened up sights and were standing and strafing at the same time. I was also disappointed with the poor hit detection, and how many bullets enemies could absorb. The tac sniper rifle annoyed me because it's a high RoF weapon... what kind of sniper rifle is that? O_O
So to get back on track... lol
I expect the scrambler rifle to be a team-oriented weapon that is somewhat of a mix between an AR, sniper rifle and laser rifle. I'm not sure how much you have played other FPS games, but there's almost always a weapon that is like that. Harder to use, harder to aim, less dps than other rifles at close range, but it really shines in medium to long range combat. The question is will it have enough dps or an area that it excels at to make it useful at something?
Laser rifles are an odd weapon, and I've never used something like that before, where it overheats and does more damage the longer you hold it down and everything. The optimal range is far and it does little close too. It's just weird! There's really no other game that I can compare a similar weapon to it, so I cannot say how the addition of a scrambler rifle will change the balance.
Preferably it will be good at something, but the long range energy weapon role is already the laser rifle. I'm not sure if the scrambler rifle will replace it, or do something else.
It's not directly related to anything in this thread, but I have seen a bit of discussion that some people are having trouble with the mass driver. I guess I do not think it is that hard to use since there are weapons with similar mechanics in other games. I found this clip on youtube of the flak cannon Playing against bots is meh, but w/e, it will show the arc + explosion thing. (That's alt fire, primary is like a shotgun.)
And if you can, direct damage from mass driver rounds can do over 500 damage @_@ The splash damage done to the user is comparatively lower than what is done by similar weapons, so it's not like it is easy to kill yourself with it if you practice =].
In case you're wondering, my favorite gun is the ASMD Shock Rifle xD. If the scrambler rifle is like that... oooooomg!
Oh, and on another note, one thing that is important in other games is ammo conservation. This game makes spammy-the-clown high RoF weapons more attractive because it's easy to carry around a ton of ammo, especially if you and your teammates have nanohives. According to CCP, nanohives are the most purchased equipment item, and it's little wonder why. |
0 Try Harder
Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz
Noir. Mercenary Group
254
|
Posted - 2013.04.18 19:52:00 -
[9] - Quote
Kitten Commander wrote:One last question - With sharpshooter going away as far as range extension, how do you think this will impact AV and a possible choice of a tank (impact of swarms vs. forge vs. plasma cannon)?
Oh, sorry XD I switched over to infantry for this thread, I was thinking about using a different term from tanking, and I guess I should have. Sorry about the confusion. Just tanking as in how much damage infantry can take :>
I have a feeling the change will not make a difference for AV. CCP seems to like the current balance. |
0 Try Harder
Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz
Noir. Mercenary Group
254
|
Posted - 2013.04.18 20:03:00 -
[10] - Quote
Beren Hurin wrote:I was messing around with the GLU- Tac Assault Rifle with 2 damage mods, a complex extender, and some armor/armor repairs.
I feel like it SHOULD comfortably be fitting inside that meta that you are talking about with long range lethality but slower RoF. Its just that it kicks so hard.
Yah, CCP killed the tac rifle =[ I guess it's actually kind of a good thing, since the Codewish is better than the Duvolle (how it fires.) So now people who want to use the best tac AR in the game do not have to spend AUR on tac rifles since they are all kind of bad.
I'm wondering if CCP will just remove tac ARs completely and switch the long range over to scrambler rifles.
Oh, and the tac AR actually has a high RoF. Some n00bs used modded controllers, but there were many people who could fire it almost as fast as a fully automatic AR. I'm not sure if they changed it, but you could hit the 750 RPM of the normal AR if you were fast enough. I think most players could at least do 8 shots per second, so that's 480 RPM even if you're slow. It might be a good chance to practice quickly pulling the trigger, but I feel like it's better to practice with scrambler pistols. If you get the pistol skill up, you'll be able to compete and win against good AR/SMG players if you can engage them at close range. You can't really use 500+ RPM with a tac AR anymore.
I meant slower RPM like 100-200ish or so =] The bolt action rifles were fun in the old games, that's like 60ish or less RPM, but there's no way CCP would put in a rifle with enough damage to make that useful.
edit: you don't have to practice solely in FPS games if you don't want to. I'm playing Mortal Combat right now, and you have to hit the buttons fairly quickly ^.^
Although I have been missing a few combos because I hit the buttons wayyyyyyy too fast LOL |
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