DUST Search - What about the Tactical AR needs fixing?

Garrett Blacknova wrote:

How about they swap things around.

"Breach" weapons are meant to help you "breach" enemy positions - hence the name. This means short-range, CQC-focused weapon. Breach Shotguns deal more damage, but at the cost of ammo count, because Shotguns are already a hard-hitting CQC weapon, and making them hit even harder makes them better for CQC. A Breach AR should, logically, handle sort of like a hybrid AR/SMG - higher RoF than a normal AR, shorter effective/max range, and more kick, but with less damage per shot - slightly higher dps, but not by much.

"Tactical" weapons are the long-range variants. Tactical Snipers sacrifice damage for higher RoF and range, which works because they're already low-RoF long-range weapons with high damage. The increased RoF makes up for the loss of precision at extreme ranges, and the scope helps as well. For a Tac AR, though, following that same model makes it LESS viable for long-range, because it isn't already an extreme-range weapon.

So, pretty much, swap the damage, kick and RoF lines from the Breach and Tac AR, and keep the rest as-is.

You get a low-damage, high-RoF full-auto AR with heavy kick for CQC, and a high-damage, low-RoF semi-auto AR for long range operations.

Fixed? You tell me...

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Dusters Blog Galactic News Network 260	Posted - 2013.04.11 18:38:00 - [1] - Quote Our blog is doing a piece on the TAR and while we tested it, we'd like to hear from more of the people who actually use it. It seems like it should fit a role giving you a weapon with more range/dmg than the normal ARs but with single fire. we would like to know how it can be tuned to be more effective since it is grossly underused. which is a dead giveaway for poor design.
Bones McGavins Sanmatar Kelkoons Minmatar Republic 52	Posted - 2013.04.11 18:43:00 - [2] - Quote It needs far less kick back. Firing it is way more jarring and disorienting than the other ARs, it makes it useless.
Bojo The Mighty Bojo's School of the Trades 868	Posted - 2013.04.11 18:44:00 - [3] - Quote I would like higher damage, less max ammo. That way it becomes worth the kick.
Tyjus Vacca Valor Coalition RISE of LEGION 12	Posted - 2013.04.11 18:46:00 - [4] - Quote #1 problem is normal AR has too much range and accuracy. why would you fire a single shot when you can dont give up anything with the automatic fire weapon?
ReGnUM Public Relations Imperfects Public Relations 107	Posted - 2013.04.11 18:49:00 - [5] - Quote Tyjus Vacca wrote: #1 problem is normal AR has too much range and accuracy. why would you fire a single shot when you can dont give up anything with the automatic fire weapon? This is wrong in many ways. TAR needs two things Decrease in recoil Decrease in RoF Thank you
Richard Sebire Osmon Surveillance Caldari State 16	Posted - 2013.04.11 18:49:00 - [6] - Quote Most of the officers weapons aren't as good as you'd think. The gex 32 assault rifle is the best for the money so far.
Reiki Jubo Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 73	Posted - 2013.04.11 18:54:00 - [7] - Quote I agree with both of them. give it 20 rounds and raise the damage.
Hana-Maru Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz Noir. Mercenary Group 30	Posted - 2013.04.11 19:02:00 - [8] - Quote remove the scope
Daedric Lothar Onslaught Inc 192	Posted - 2013.04.11 19:07:00 - [9] - Quote Someone uses this gun? I didn't know that, wow. I bought a few copies of it, used 1 and decided it was probably the worst gun in the game. This gun would be pretty awesome if it was like a M1 Garand in most other games, Single shot high damage. But then it wouldn't be an assault rifle. So just for balance give it a burst fire mode designed for really short range firepower.
Baal Roo Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 1099	Posted - 2013.04.11 19:13:00 - [10] - Quote The Tac is a well balanced weapon, which is why AR users think it is underpowered. No changes are needed with the Tac

Zekain Kade BetaMax. CRONOS. 1212	Posted - 2013.04.11 19:19:00 - [11] - Quote The recoil is actually fine. Of you give it a better scope and more range, that alone would actually fix the weapon. And put it in its natural situational use as a long all ranged weapon
DarkPrometheus Dark Force Katana 44	Posted - 2013.04.11 20:10:00 - [12] - Quote I use the TAR and luv it. Heck since a bought it I've gotten way. More kills with it than the reg ar. It needs better scoped tho.
Makuta Miserix Better Hide R Die 53	Posted - 2013.04.11 20:16:00 - [13] - Quote I've started using the TAR recently, and can say that I really like it. Unfortunately it does suffer from some drawbacks that make it inferior to other AR's. The first and foremost being its range should be longer than it is now. I will agree that the kick needs too be reduced, but only by a very small amount. Reduce it to much and it borders on being overpowered. Just my .02 ISK.
Scheneighnay McBob Bojo's School of the Trades 1200	Posted - 2013.04.11 20:19:00 - [14] - Quote Bojo The Mighty wrote: I would like higher damage, less max ammo. That way it becomes worth the kick. This, and increase the scope zoom so you can actually use your range advantage. BSotT lab rat division has done a lot of work with TARs in the past few weeks.
Marston VC SVER True Blood Unclaimed. 143	Posted - 2013.04.11 20:25:00 - [15] - Quote ReGnUM Public Relations wrote: Tyjus Vacca wrote: #1 problem is normal AR has too much range and accuracy. why would you fire a single shot when you can dont give up anything with the automatic fire weapon? This is wrong in many ways. TAR needs two things Decrease in recoil Decrease in RoF Thank you ^ that's agreeable, the problem with the old version is that people were basically able to turn it into a higher damage AR. If the recoil is reduced (or made to make more sense) and the RoF decreased that should balance out perfectly because you would be unable to make it as effective in CQC as a normal AR but it would be much better for ranged engagements. The question is..... how much do you lower the RoF... Too much and it'll be useless, and too little wont make it play any different then an AR.
Rynoceros One-Armed Bandits Atrocitas 6	Posted - 2013.04.11 20:27:00 - [16] - Quote Iron sights for CQC, switchable (via L2 button) to red dot scope. Add 3 shot burst, less kick in single fire. Longer base max effective range, maybe. Underrated weapon as-is, just not "proper".
Solarisjock One-Armed Bandits Atrocitas 23	Posted - 2013.04.11 20:29:00 - [17] - Quote i would put the ROF at 250. thats 2.5 times faster then the tactical rifle, while being 1/3rd the speed of a regular AR. lower the recoil while increasing the range and damage some and i think it would be great.
Charizard Zakalwe Immobile Infantry 28	Posted - 2013.04.11 20:51:00 - [18] - Quote Recoil is high for the damage it does. Needs to go down or damage to go up. Magazine size is fine, but could be adjusted for balance. Recoil should mainly be an issue at the longer half of it's range. Does crouching help it much? I'm not sure.
Another Heavy SOB TRUE TEA BAGGERS 21	Posted - 2013.04.11 21:31:00 - [19] - Quote IMHO it's the same problem all AR's have in Dust. If you ADS at a single point, dump 30-40 rounds and let the rifle rise without compensating for kick. Now when you stop firing your ADS sight will return to the exact point you were aiming. Thus making the ability to control weapon kick pointless, if you do correct for kick your simply moving off target. This really isn't an issue with the fully automatic versions since as soon as u let go of the trigger spread and kick are immediately reset. With the kick being much higher on the TAC and Burst Variants this makes compensating for kick necessary to stay on target. Ohh but if I compensate for kick then my next shot will be at his feet? personally I feel that if you're going to give us weapons with such noticeable recoil then for the love of God give us the option to control it.
ZiwZih The Tritan Industries RISE of LEGION 108	Posted - 2013.04.11 22:55:00 - [20] - Quote It would be nice if CCP ships you a mouse when you buy TAR first time. Helps a lot. Or they could slightly decrease kick. Or they could compensate with slightly more damage. This one would be sweet, actually. Also they need to fix 'Codewish' Duvolle (AUR PRO with ADV fittings requirement variant) inconsistency with tracking speed when ADS. All other scoped ARs have the same, except this one.

Laurent Cazaderon Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation 1302	Posted - 2013.04.11 23:11:00 - [21] - Quote Dusters Blog wrote: Our blog is doing a piece on the TAR and while we tested it, we'd like to hear from more of the people who actually use it. It seems like it should fit a role giving you a weapon with more range/dmg than the normal ARs but with single fire. we would like to know how it can be tuned to be more effective since it is grossly underused. which is a dead giveaway for poor design. Last nerf was wrong... adding massive recoil while not changing RoF. Should have gone the other way around.... Average recoil, huge scope, halfed RoF so it fits its role : mid\long distance shots, useless at short range. Was using it pre-nerf and find it useless now.
Baal Omniscient L.O.T.I.S. 445	Posted - 2013.04.11 23:13:00 - [22] - Quote Baal Roo wrote: The Tac is a well balanced weapon, which is why AR users think it is underpowered. No changes are needed. At it's max range, the TAR fires one shot then has to be recentered. With a mouse this may be no problem, but for a Ds3 player this is ridiculously difficult considering you have to correct for both massive recoil with every shot AND track the player. If the controls were more fluid on the Ds3, I'd say leave it as is. As they are, it needs less recoil and a slower ROF.
XxWarlordxX97 Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 1420	Posted - 2013.04.11 23:19:00 - [23] - Quote Baal Omniscient wrote: Baal Roo wrote: The Tac is a well balanced weapon, which is why AR users think it is underpowered. No changes are needed. At it's max range, the TAR fires one shot then has to be recentered. With a mouse this may be no problem, but for a Ds3 player this is ridiculously difficult considering you have to correct for both massive recoil with every shot AND track the player. If the controls were more fluid on the Ds3, I'd say leave it as is. As they are, it needs less recoil and a slower ROF. less recoil is all it needs
Baal Omniscient L.O.T.I.S. 445	Posted - 2013.04.11 23:26:00 - [24] - Quote XxWarlordxX97 wrote: Baal Omniscient wrote: Baal Roo wrote: The Tac is a well balanced weapon, which is why AR users think it is underpowered. No changes are needed. At it's max range, the TAR fires one shot then has to be recentered. With a mouse this may be no problem, but for a Ds3 player this is ridiculously difficult considering you have to correct for both massive recoil with every shot AND track the player. If the controls were more fluid on the Ds3, I'd say leave it as is. As they are, it needs less recoil and a slower ROF. less recoil is all it needs Then we'd be in the territory of modded controllers=win button again. If you reduce the recoil so much that it's usable without having to correct every shot, you have modded controllers showing up. If you drop the ROF as well, then a modded controller isn't an issue anymore. We went over this months ago.
Sextus Hardcock Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz Noir. Mercenary Group 158	Posted - 2013.04.11 23:43:00 - [25] - Quote Lower RoF Raise Damage/Lower Recoil
Berserker007 Imperfects Negative-Feedback 262	Posted - 2013.04.11 23:43:00 - [26] - Quote ReGnUM Public Relations wrote: Tyjus Vacca wrote: #1 problem is normal AR has too much range and accuracy. why would you fire a single shot when you can dont give up anything with the automatic fire weapon? This is wrong in many ways. TAR needs two things Decrease in recoil Decrease in RoF Thank you QFT
XxWarlordxX97 Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 1420	Posted - 2013.04.11 23:48:00 - [27] - Quote Baal Omniscient wrote: XxWarlordxX97 wrote: Baal Omniscient wrote: Baal Roo wrote: The Tac is a well balanced weapon, which is why AR users think it is underpowered. No changes are needed. At it's max range, the TAR fires one shot then has to be recentered. With a mouse this may be no problem, but for a Ds3 player this is ridiculously difficult considering you have to correct for both massive recoil with every shot AND track the player. If the controls were more fluid on the Ds3, I'd say leave it as is. As they are, it needs less recoil and a slower ROF. less recoil is all it needs Then we'd be in the territory of modded controllers=win button again. If you reduce the recoil so much that it's usable without having to correct every shot, you have modded controllers showing up. If you drop the ROF as well, then a modded controller isn't an issue anymore. We went over this months ago. I don't have modded controller no lie
XxWarlordxX97 Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 1420	Posted - 2013.04.12 00:01:00 - [28] - Quote but when I do what will it be like?
Reiki Jubo Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 73	Posted - 2013.04.12 00:34:00 - [29] - Quote he's right tho, no other AR should have the range of the tactical. it should have more range than the AR but less than the SR. raise damage, add better sights, lower recoil and ROF.
XxWarlordxX97 Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 1420	Posted - 2013.04.12 00:37:00 - [30] - Quote Baal Omniscient wrote: XxWarlordxX97 wrote: Baal Omniscient wrote: Baal Roo wrote: The Tac is a well balanced weapon, which is why AR users think it is underpowered. No changes are needed. At it's max range, the TAR fires one shot then has to be recentered. With a mouse this may be no problem, but for a Ds3 player this is ridiculously difficult considering you have to correct for both massive recoil with every shot AND track the player. If the controls were more fluid on the Ds3, I'd say leave it as is. As they are, it needs less recoil and a slower ROF. less recoil is all it needs Then we'd be in the territory of modded controllers=win button again. If you reduce the recoil so much that it's usable without having to correct every shot, you have modded controllers showing up. If you drop the ROF as well, then a modded controller isn't an issue anymore. We went over this months ago. I guess death to all who stand in my way

Kiiran-B Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS. 46	Posted - 2013.04.12 02:36:00 - [31] - Quote If you study the recoil, it works like an overheating system on the LR or the HMG. If you fire continuously fire it you have to wait for the recoil to come back down to its original aiming positon. That has to be fixed.
EKH0 0ne Edimmu Warfighters Gallente Federation 3	Posted - 2013.04.12 02:48:00 - [32] - Quote bigger magazine duh
Baal Omniscient L.O.T.I.S. 448	Posted - 2013.04.12 03:29:00 - [33] - Quote Kiiran-B wrote: If you study the recoil, it works like an overheating system on the LR or the HMG. If you fire continuously fire it you have to wait for the recoil to come back down to its original aiming positon. That has to be fixed. It does on the TAR but not the BAR. The BAR needs to recenter a few beats after a burst, the TAR needs to have more stick but less kick.
XxWarlordxX97 Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 1423	Posted - 2013.04.12 04:04:00 - [34] - Quote Baal Omniscient wrote: XxWarlordxX97 wrote: Baal Omniscient wrote: Baal Roo wrote: The Tac is a well balanced weapon, which is why AR users think it is underpowered. No changes are needed. At it's max range, the TAR fires one shot then has to be recentered. With a mouse this may be no problem, but for a Ds3 player this is ridiculously difficult considering you have to correct for both massive recoil with every shot AND track the player. If the controls were more fluid on the Ds3, I'd say leave it as is. As they are, it needs less recoil and a slower ROF. less recoil is all it needs Then we'd be in the territory of modded controllers=win button again. If you reduce the recoil so much that it's usable without having to correct every shot, you have modded controllers showing up. If you drop the ROF as well, then a modded controller isn't an issue anymore. We went over this months ago. so you use a modded controller good to know
Baal Omniscient L.O.T.I.S. 448	Posted - 2013.04.12 04:57:00 - [35] - Quote If I had one I'd be stupid to try to keep from bringing back their advantage. And trying to get a response by pretending to draw an answer that is in no way implied out of a statement made on the topic is childish, please grow up.
XxWarlordxX97 Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 1428	Posted - 2013.04.12 04:59:00 - [36] - Quote Baal Omniscient wrote: If I had one I'd be stupid to try to keep from bringing back their advantage. And trying to get a response by pretending to draw an answer that is in no way implied out of a statement made on the topic is childish, please grow up. please just die
Bojo The Mighty Bojo's School of the Trades 872	Posted - 2013.04.12 05:00:00 - [37] - Quote ZiwZih wrote: Or they could compensate with slightly more damage. This one would be sweet, actually. . Zwih Zih, I've converted to almost always TAR and Burst AR (I call it BAR while Breach is still Breach). I prefer the increase in the Damage, and slightly max ammo nerf. That way it's less like a vanilla AR, and it wouldn't affect the way we currently use it (changing recoil will result in different firing, not higher damage)
Ulysses Knapse Nuevo Atlas Corporation 223	Posted - 2013.04.12 05:13:00 - [38] - Quote I never did understand why Tactical ARs have so much recoil and so much RoF. A skilled gunman in real life can fire 5-6 shots per second with a semi-automatic weapon, which is only around 300-360 RPM.
Baal Omniscient L.O.T.I.S. 448	Posted - 2013.04.12 05:41:00 - [39] - Quote Ulysses Knapse wrote: I never did understand why Tactical ARs have so much recoil and so much RoF. A skilled gunman in real life can fire 5-6 shots per second with a semi-automatic weapon, which is only around 300-360 RPM. Because people insist that their "natural gifts" to rapid fire a plastic trigger should give them an advantage when playing a game with weapons in it, regardless of what makes logical sense.
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 2451	Posted - 2013.04.12 06:45:00 - [40] - Quote How about they swap things around. "Breach" weapons are meant to help you "breach" enemy positions - hence the name. This means short-range, CQC-focused weapon. Breach Shotguns deal more damage, but at the cost of ammo count, because Shotguns are already a hard-hitting CQC weapon, and making them hit even harder makes them better for CQC. A Breach AR should, logically, handle sort of like a hybrid AR/SMG - higher RoF than a normal AR, shorter effective/max range, and more kick, but with less damage per shot - slightly higher dps, but not by much. "Tactical" weapons are the long-range variants. Tactical Snipers sacrifice damage for higher RoF and range, which works because they're already low-RoF long-range weapons with high damage. The increased RoF makes up for the loss of precision at extreme ranges, and the scope helps as well. For a Tac AR, though, following that same model makes it LESS viable for long-range, because it isn't already an extreme-range weapon. So, pretty much, swap the damage, kick and RoF lines from the Breach and Tac AR, and keep the rest as-is. You get a low-damage, high-RoF full-auto AR with heavy kick for CQC, and a high-damage, low-RoF semi-auto AR for long range operations. Fixed? You tell me...

Jack McReady DUST University Ivy League 97	Posted - 2013.04.12 07:39:00 - [41] - Quote the tactical should just work like a battle rifle. low clip size, low ROF, high damage....I would instantly train for such a weapon.
Baal Omniscient L.O.T.I.S. 451	Posted - 2013.04.12 08:19:00 - [42] - Quote Garrett Blacknova wrote: How about they swap things around. "Breach" weapons are meant to help you "breach" enemy positions - hence the name. This means short-range, CQC-focused weapon. Breach Shotguns deal more damage, but at the cost of ammo count, because Shotguns are already a hard-hitting CQC weapon, and making them hit even harder makes them better for CQC. A Breach AR should, logically, handle sort of like a hybrid AR/SMG - higher RoF than a normal AR, shorter effective/max range, and more kick, but with less damage per shot - slightly higher dps, but not by much. "Tactical" weapons are the long-range variants. Tactical Snipers sacrifice damage for higher RoF and range, which works because they're already low-RoF long-range weapons with high damage. The increased RoF makes up for the loss of precision at extreme ranges, and the scope helps as well. For a Tac AR, though, following that same model makes it LESS viable for long-range, because it isn't already an extreme-range weapon. So, pretty much, swap the damage, kick and RoF lines from the Breach and Tac AR, and keep the rest as-is. You get a low-damage, high-RoF full-auto AR with heavy kick for CQC, and a high-damage, low-RoF semi-auto AR for long range operations. Fixed? You tell me... As long as the breach becomes viable again, I'll go for it. I suggested something similar a couple months ago.
G Torq ALTA B2O 131	Posted - 2013.04.13 11:26:00 - [43] - Quote Slight reduction to recoil/kick and/or minimal increase in speed to re-center Slight increase in damage (a few points only) Range is good (just beyond Lazor, optimal outside of HMG) RoF to be reduced to 5-600 (need to be able to hip-fire rapidly) Scope-range on higher levels to improve (5% per meta-level?) @Jack McReady: You should take a good, long look at the Scrambler Rifle on May 6th...


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