DUST Search - Dropships are like HAVs with no ammo for the main gun

Vyzion Eyri wrote:

Logi Bro wrote:

I must have missed something important, because I was under the impression that the only new thing DS's were getting was a pilot operated turret. If I haven't missed anything, and that is the only change, then dropships will still be the same paper thin scapegoats to temporarily distract the enemy.

Thing is, dropships aren't what have to change. Maps have to change. Squad sizes have to change. Voice chat needs to be on by default.

Okay, certain features, such as a notification, clear notification, that the pilot wants to to exit the ship, and a way to actually acquire WP, would be nice. Flight instruments would be nice. Not exploding to small bumps against walls would be nice.

But without consideration of how to make the game work for dropships, no amount of tweaking the ship will change the fact that currently, maps favour ground vehicles so much more than dropships. Imagine a sprawling cityscape, crisscrossed by streets, low buildings and huge structures. Who would want to navigate that labyrinth? No one. Hence dropships.

Imagine dense jungles, the foliage keeping vision to a minimum and pools of acid and quicksand which don't kill, but can fatally distract you. Walk through that, or take a dropship?

Imagine a field pockmarked by blowholes which spewed hundreds of gallons of water every few minutes, a minefield. Would you drive your tank over that? No, but dropships can fly high enough that the blast of water will have lost all its force to gravity before it hits.

Imagine impassable ravines, mountain passes, fog, clouds, haze, ash from volcanoes, blindingly bright sunlight, murky dusk and twilight, multi-level complexes, maps separated by a range of mountains, with two valleys which allow access to the other half.

It has to be blatantly obvious that that dropship waiting at base spawn can get you someone faster than anything else before people understanding that it is meant to be paper thin, but when the map makes you the ghost of the trees, or the spectre of the fog, tank doesn't matter.

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Skihids The Tritan Industries RISE of LEGION 1168	Posted - 2013.04.10 17:09:00 - [1] - Quote Imagine if tanks had no ammunition for the main turret. Drivers would be forced to recruit gunners for their small turrets and survive on kill assists. Though there would always be dedicated drivers there would be far fewer tanks on the field and they wouldn't generate much fear. Mercs would pop them for sport when there weren't more important things to do. There would be many threads devoted to how they were UP and over priced. Some drivers would boast about successful matches or their crazy driving skills that distracted the enemy team enough to turn the tide of battle, but they would have little overall effect on the game. Where this analogy breaks down is that there would also be many threads demanding ammunition. Dropships have been flying for nearly a year without ammunition for its main weapon, and for some reason the community is silent on the subject. Instead we argue about its cost or complain about the relative ineffectiveness of its two small turrets. What is the dropship's main weapon? Well mercs of course, everyone knows that. So what's the problem? We have sixteen of the on the field after all. The problem is that any old set of mercs won't do. It needs to be a large coordinated squad of effective mercs, and that doesn't exist. We have large groups of completely uncoordinated mercs and we have small four man squads of highly coordinated mercs, but no large coordinated groups. The dropship has been gimped by this forever. The new build is going to change all that, but it's also going to offer a big distraction for pilots. Imagine CCP offered a driver controlled small turret to our hypothetical ammo starved HAV driver. He would jump at the chance to finally be able to shoot, to be the master of his own destiny! Now imagine CCP also offered ammunition for his main gun, but stipulated that he needed five or six of his teammates to bring it into the match for him. Would he go for something he's never seen work before given all that hassle, or would he grab that small turret and run with it? That is the choice each pilot will be faced with. Do you spec into gunships and run solo, or do you go for standard ships and transport a squad of assault shock troops? I personally believe that the dropship's true power will be felt as an assault transport. The enemy will fear the sight of a ship not because of the small turrets, but because it may disgorge a horde of HMG wielding heavies directly on their heads. Tankers will fear a rain of AV nade wielding scouts. What does this mean for you as a pilot? It means you need to find an organized player run corp that regularly fields large squads. That's where you will find your ammunition. What does it mean for corps? It means you have to hone your squad coordination and start practicing with your pilots. You need to encourage them to skill into the transports and not be distracted by the advanced gunships. You may need to support them financially for a bit as they learn how to adapt to a new role. What does it mean for the average merc? It means you will have a love/hate relationship with the dropship. You will love dropping into an objective with a tight squad, and you will hate it when the enemy returns the favor.
gbghg L.O.T.I.S. 1104	Posted - 2013.04.10 17:23:00 - [2] - Quote I plan to spec into both. from the description the assault dropship will have a 5 man carrying capacity, you can still drop people off, it's just now the pilot can offer some support himself and not have to rely on gunners.
Laheon Osmon Surveillance Caldari State 433	Posted - 2013.04.10 17:33:00 - [3] - Quote Agreed. When the larger maps come in, dropships will become absolutely invaluable. The ability to quickly traverse terrain and, with proper tanking skills, deliver a full squad unharmed to an objective, can't be underestimated. Imagine a full squad (of six) consisting of a heavy, a logi, three assaults and a scout, being dropped on you from nowhere. Dropships will have a major role to play, but the map sizes just aren't up to scratch yet.
Cody Sietz The Tritan Industries RISE of LEGION 74	Posted - 2013.04.10 17:39:00 - [4] - Quote Are they going to change dropships to offer a single cannon underneath? Or just offer two different kinds of dropships?
Knight SoIaire Better Hide R Die 157	Posted - 2013.04.10 17:43:00 - [5] - Quote After playing around with tanks for a while I decided that I dont want to skill into them anymore, Assault Dropships sound much cooler. Aslong as they get the HUD and FPS view right for the dropships I'll be skilling into them, I dont find the FPS view useful for Dropships, unless you're repping another vehicle's shields. We need something like Battlefield or PS2, where the cockpit is in view and we have a crosshair so we're not blindly firing. I'll probably then branch out into jets because I imagine Assault Dropships being like attack helicopters. Also: CCP, please add a 'Kick out of DS' button, all the usless players in my DS are slowing me down.
gbghg L.O.T.I.S. 1106	Posted - 2013.04.10 17:44:00 - [6] - Quote Cody Sietz wrote: Are they going to change dropships to offer a single cannon underneath? Or just offer two different kinds of dropships? 3 different kinds standard assault logistics
Skihids The Tritan Industries RISE of LEGION 1168	Posted - 2013.04.10 17:49:00 - [7] - Quote Laheon wrote: Agreed. When the larger maps come in, dropships will become absolutely invaluable. The ability to quickly traverse terrain and, with proper tanking skills, deliver a full squad unharmed to an objective, can't be underestimated. Imagine a full squad (of six) consisting of a heavy, a logi, three assaults and a scout, being dropped on you from nowhere. Dropships will have a major role to play, but the map sizes just aren't up to scratch yet. I believe that the DS will be important even on some of our more open current maps such as manus peak. As it stands now it is difficult to coordinate a ground assault on objective A. There are a couple choke points and a fir bit of open killing ground. Now imagine dropping four HMGs and a couple fast hackers right in the bowl. You could flip that objective in less than thirty seconds.
Skihids The Tritan Industries RISE of LEGION 1168	Posted - 2013.04.10 17:52:00 - [8] - Quote gbghg wrote: I plan to spec into both. from the description the assault dropship will have a 5 man carrying capacity, you can still drop people off, it's just now the pilot can offer some support himself and not have to rely on gunners. We have no idea what the passenger capacity will be as the current description still claims five. I'm not saying that the pilot turret won't be useful, but rather the assault squad will be most important.
Iron Wolf Saber BetaMax. CRONOS. 3395	Posted - 2013.04.10 18:01:00 - [9] - Quote I'm sorry but my dropship crushing skills are easily outpacing my gunner's skills.
Skihids The Tritan Industries RISE of LEGION 1168	Posted - 2013.04.10 18:04:00 - [10] - Quote Knight SoIaire wrote: After playing around with tanks for a while I decided that I dont want to skill into them anymore, Assault Dropships sound much cooler. Aslong as they get the HUD and FPS view right for the dropships I'll be skilling into them, I dont find the FPS view useful for Dropships, unless you're repping another vehicle's shields. We need something like Battlefield or PS2, where the cockpit is in view and we have a crosshair so we're not blindly firing. I'll probably then branch out into jets because I imagine Assault Dropships being like attack helicopters. Also: CCP, please add a 'Kick out of DS' button, all the usless players in my DS are slowing me down. I'm hoping for a wraparound FPS view myself. The current view is a useless flat screen with no FoV and the 3rd Person view obscures your target with your ship. Either current option just kills any sense of immersion. There's no reason CCP can't fix this.

Nguruthos IX Kameira Lodge Amarr Empire 201	Posted - 2013.04.10 18:40:00 - [11] - Quote Laheon wrote: Agreed. When the larger maps come in, dropships will become absolutely invaluable. The ability to quickly traverse terrain and, with proper tanking skills, deliver a full squad unharmed to an objective, can't be underestimated. Imagine a full squad (of six) consisting of a heavy, a logi, three assaults and a scout, being dropped on you from nowhere. Dropships will have a major role to play, but the map sizes just aren't up to scratch yet. Except as it is there will be no mechanic to reward war points for them doing so. Difficult job? Check Tons of SP investment? Check Leaves ground play gimped? Check Tons of ISK cost fronted by pilot? Check Tons of personal risk? Check Very important team role? Check Reward for effort? Nothing. At All.
Nguruthos IX Kameira Lodge Amarr Empire 201	Posted - 2013.04.10 18:44:00 - [12] - Quote gbghg wrote: Cody Sietz wrote: Are they going to change dropships to offer a single cannon underneath? Or just offer two different kinds of dropships? 3 different kinds standard assault logistics Currently the way skills turret skills work is that when the vehicle owner calls in a vehicle, that has an initial effect on the turret's bonus damage (as well as ship's shields/armor from shield and armor skills). When a blue hops in a turret if they have gunner skills then theirs also applies. If the pilot is manning their own turret, will they benefit from the passive skill as applied to the turret from calling in the vehicle, as well as acting as if a proper gunner gaining their bonus dmg as turret operator? Or will they essentially be half gimped forever as assault DS main turret controller?
gbghg L.O.T.I.S. 1106	Posted - 2013.04.10 19:06:00 - [13] - Quote Skihids wrote: gbghg wrote: I plan to spec into both. from the description the assault dropship will have a 5 man carrying capacity, you can still drop people off, it's just now the pilot can offer some support himself and not have to rely on gunners. We have no idea what the passenger capacity will be as the current description still claims five. I'm not saying that the pilot turret won't be useful, but rather the assault squad will be most important. I agree with you there, a dropships for transporting people, not trying to be a gunship, my point was that the pilot can get some kills himself as he drops off the squad and reduce the resistance for the assault squad and wear down any reinforcements, rather than keep 2 gunners on hand who would be more useful on the ground as part of the assault squad. A question that's been in my mind though, will the assault dropships still have the sideguns or is their only armament the pilot turret? Nguruthos IX wrote: If the pilot is manning their own turret, will they benefit from the passive skill as applied to the turret from calling in the vehicle, as well as acting as if a proper gunner gaining their bonus dmg as turret operator? Or will they essentially be half gimped forever as assault DS main turret controller? I have no idea.
knight of 6 ZionTCD Legacy Rising 112	Posted - 2013.04.10 19:11:00 - [14] - Quote no dude dropships are nothing like havs without ammo. havs have some ehp :)
Skihids The Tritan Industries RISE of LEGION 1170	Posted - 2013.04.10 19:27:00 - [15] - Quote knight of 6 wrote: no dude dropships are nothing like havs without ammo. havs have some ehp :) All analogies break down at some point, and I did not mean to compare absolute eHP. My point was that flying a DS is the equivalent of driving a tank with no main gun, you can't expect to be all that effective.
Alan-Ibn-Xuan Al-Alasabe Planetary Response Organisation 246	Posted - 2013.04.10 20:56:00 - [16] - Quote I look forward to the day when dropships are truly viable, but I suspect that it is months away. The simple reality is that CCP has finite personnel and a lot of things to get running. Making our flying bricks work probably isn't a high priority. I mean, hell, EVE's been out for ten years and until a few months ago half the ships were completely useless! There's still no realistic role for electronic warfare frigates. WHEN WILL ELECTRONIC ATTACK SHIPS GET THEIR LOVE, CCP!?
Logi Bro Eyniletti Rangers Minmatar Republic 1131	Posted - 2013.04.10 21:19:00 - [17] - Quote I must have missed something important, because I was under the impression that the only new thing DS's were getting was a pilot operated turret. If I haven't missed anything, and that is the only change, then dropships will still be the same paper thin scapegoats to temporarily distract the enemy.
BootStrapWill R.I.f.t 14	Posted - 2013.04.10 21:30:00 - [18] - Quote Disregard. Wrong tab.
Nauclerus stellarum Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation 0	Posted - 2013.04.10 21:37:00 - [19] - Quote Drop ship that has 3200 shields and armour and can hang around for some forge hits and some missles. Sadly blue dots run away. They don't care for the flying death trap. I don't wreck the thing either and the last time I lost one was because a RDV dropped on me. lol Can't wait for cloaking and big maps
Vyzion Eyri The Legion Academy ROFL BROS 443	Posted - 2013.04.10 23:02:00 - [20] - Quote Logi Bro wrote: I must have missed something important, because I was under the impression that the only new thing DS's were getting was a pilot operated turret. If I haven't missed anything, and that is the only change, then dropships will still be the same paper thin scapegoats to temporarily distract the enemy. Thing is, dropships aren't what have to change. Maps have to change. Squad sizes have to change. Voice chat needs to be on by default. Okay, certain features, such as a notification, clear notification, that the pilot wants to to exit the ship, and a way to actually acquire WP, would be nice. Flight instruments would be nice. Not exploding to small bumps against walls would be nice. But without consideration of how to make the game work for dropships, no amount of tweaking the ship will change the fact that currently, maps favour ground vehicles so much more than dropships. Imagine a sprawling cityscape, crisscrossed by streets, low buildings and huge structures. Who would want to navigate that labyrinth? No one. Hence dropships. Imagine dense jungles, the foliage keeping vision to a minimum and pools of acid and quicksand which don't kill, but can fatally distract you. Walk through that, or take a dropship? Imagine a field pockmarked by blowholes which spewed hundreds of gallons of water every few minutes, a minefield. Would you drive your tank over that? No, but dropships can fly high enough that the blast of water will have lost all its force to gravity before it hits. Imagine impassable ravines, mountain passes, fog, clouds, haze, ash from volcanoes, blindingly bright sunlight, murky dusk and twilight, multi-level complexes, maps separated by a range of mountains, with two valleys which allow access to the other half. It has to be blatantly obvious that that dropship waiting at base spawn can get you someone faster than anything else before people understanding that it is meant to be paper thin, but when the map makes you the ghost of the trees, or the spectre of the fog, tank doesn't matter.

Skihids The Tritan Industries RISE of LEGION 1192	Posted - 2013.04.11 13:21:00 - [21] - Quote Large maps will make DS rides to the front more desirable, but even some of the current maps have opportunities for assault drops. Any uncovered objective could be more effectively assaulted by air than by ground.
Arc-08 Horizons' Edge 3	Posted - 2013.04.17 00:23:00 - [22] - Quote Dropships Are meant to be paper thin, Airplanes/helicopters today are no tanks. But As they are Paper Thin, they need to be more like Construction Paper thin not oragami paper thin.
Skihids The Tritan Industries RISE of LEGION 1194	Posted - 2013.04.17 01:56:00 - [23] - Quote There is no rule that declares that dropship must be paper thin, that's just your take on it. CCP may have another. Either way, this analogy refers to the main weapon of each vehicle, not the HP.
Lord-of-the-Dreadfort The Lions Guard 8	Posted - 2013.04.17 02:05:00 - [24] - Quote excellent idea, can't wait to see it implemented
Lord-of-the-Dreadfort The Lions Guard 8	Posted - 2013.04.17 02:08:00 - [25] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: I'm sorry but my dropship crushing skills are easily outpacing my gunner's skills. lol, i've seen dropships do that, takes skill not not splode yourself
Lord-of-the-Dreadfort The Lions Guard 8	Posted - 2013.04.17 02:11:00 - [26] - Quote Nauclerus stellarum wrote: Drop ship that has 3200 shields and armour and can hang around for some forge hits and some missles. Sadly blue dots run away. They don't care for the flying death trap. I don't wreck the thing either and the last time I lost one was because a RDV dropped on me. lol Can't wait for cloaking and big maps no, no we do not
Lord-of-the-Dreadfort The Lions Guard 8	Posted - 2013.04.17 02:14:00 - [27] - Quote Vyzion Eyri wrote: Logi Bro wrote: I must have missed something important, because I was under the impression that the only new thing DS's were getting was a pilot operated turret. If I haven't missed anything, and that is the only change, then dropships will still be the same paper thin scapegoats to temporarily distract the enemy. Thing is, dropships aren't what have to change. Maps have to change. Squad sizes have to change. Voice chat needs to be on by default. Okay, certain features, such as a notification, clear notification, that the pilot wants to to exit the ship, and a way to actually acquire WP, would be nice. Flight instruments would be nice. Not exploding to small bumps against walls would be nice. But without consideration of how to make the game work for dropships, no amount of tweaking the ship will change the fact that currently, maps favour ground vehicles so much more than dropships. Imagine a sprawling cityscape, crisscrossed by streets, low buildings and huge structures. Who would want to navigate that labyrinth? No one. Hence dropships. Imagine dense jungles, the foliage keeping vision to a minimum and pools of acid and quicksand which don't kill, but can fatally distract you. Walk through that, or take a dropship? Imagine a field pockmarked by blowholes which spewed hundreds of gallons of water every few minutes, a minefield. Would you drive your tank over that? No, but dropships can fly high enough that the blast of water will have lost all its force to gravity before it hits. Imagine impassable ravines, mountain passes, fog, clouds, haze, ash from volcanoes, blindingly bright sunlight, murky dusk and twilight, multi-level complexes, maps separated by a range of mountains, with two valleys which allow access to the other half. It has to be blatantly obvious that that dropship waiting at base spawn can get you someone faster than anything else before people understanding that it is meant to be paper thin, but when the map makes you the ghost of the trees, or the spectre of the fog, tank doesn't matter. give CCP 8 years, you'll get this by then (hopefully)
Sev Alcatraz The Tritan Industries RISE of LEGION 210	Posted - 2013.04.17 02:53:00 - [28] - Quote I think that dropships should have just as much if not more EHP then a well fitted hav There essentially a flying tank without a BFG (big fking gun) they deserve a ridiculous EHP pool
Charlotte O'Dell Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz Noir. Mercenary Group 122	Posted - 2013.04.17 03:49:00 - [29] - Quote big maps will also spell the end of railgun redline snipers bc the range will be too small for the map. As of now, manus peek is about twice the range of the railgun.
Ysylla Mariner DUST University Ivy League 5	Posted - 2013.04.29 23:22:00 - [30] - Quote Nauclerus stellarum wrote: Drop ship that has 3200 shields and armour and can hang around for some forge hits and some missles. Sadly blue dots run away. I agree with this. My dropships have 2000 shields and about 1500 armor, and they are awesome for survivability.



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