DUST Search - Starter fits for NPC players only

Thrillhouse Van Houten wrote:

While responding to the recent thread started by CCP Nullarbor regarding Corporation Tax, I once again found myself mulling over the "problem" of Starter fits usage by non-newbies.

While hardly a game breaker, it nonetheless does insidious work undermining the Risk vs. Reward nature of New Eden and will inevitably only serve to unbalance the fragile starting economy of Dust.

Currently, Starter fits exist as a free ride to anyone willing to play a mere Assault grunt. This is true for the clueless newbie and the paramount veteran alike. It shouldn't, though, in keeping with the principles of CCP, Eve and New Eden. These Starter fits not only allow several play styles to skate by on a free chassis but make those particular choice of play styles imbalanced with the others in the game. They also allow some players the ability to spend fractions of ISK (both initially and later) compared with others, who don't have the option of using a Starter fit to play in their chosen roles.

My proposal, then, is to make Starter fits available only to players in NPCs. Hear me out here...

In a metagame sense, the NPCs are paying players a contract fee to fight for them and, presumably, providing barebones fits for the clone Mercenaries to fight in. Why should these fits, meant for newbies to save them money and introduce them to a couple basic fittings, be free ad infinitum?

I say keep them free as long as the player is still in a NPC. Once the player joins a PC, they would then need to provide their own fittings at market value. I run a logistics fit that is 3500 ISK. I have the Exile BPO, mind you, but a Militia AR would make the whole outfit about 4k ISK. Hardly a bank breaker for even the greenest player. I would need to die 30 or more times per match for these lowbie fits to actually cost me a serious portion of my contract fee. What is the justification, then, for Starter fits if not cost?

In the incredibly unlikely event that a player runs out of money entirely while in a PC, they could either lean on their fellow Corpmates for a jump start OR simply rejoin a NPC for access to the free Starter fits, again.

There were two caveats with my plan. 1) NPCs would have a Corp tax to be determined at a fair value by CCP (I suggested 11%) and 2) there should be militia grades of every weapon and item available for purchase. In a metagame sense, again, these NPCs provide free fits and vehicles and they should incur some kind of returns on their investments.

At the end of the day, this would encourage new players to join PCs and it would teach them that nothing in Dust is free if they want to climb the ladder. They pay for their own fits once they are out on their own.

This idea came to me, but I should note that a very similar idea was being proposed by Kagehoshi Horned Wolf about a month ago in a New Player thread he started.

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Thrillhouse Van Houten DIOS EX. 59	Posted - 2013.04.10 00:24:00 - [1] - Quote While responding to the recent thread started by CCP Nullarbor regarding Corporation Tax, I once again found myself mulling over the "problem" of Starter fits usage by non-newbies. While hardly a game breaker, it nonetheless does insidious work undermining the Risk vs. Reward nature of New Eden and will inevitably only serve to unbalance the fragile starting economy of Dust. Currently, Starter fits exist as a free ride to anyone willing to play a mere Assault grunt. This is true for the clueless newbie and the paramount veteran alike. It shouldn't, though, in keeping with the principles of CCP, Eve and New Eden. These Starter fits not only allow several play styles to skate by on a free chassis but make those particular choice of play styles imbalanced with the others in the game. They also allow some players the ability to spend fractions of ISK (both initially and later) compared with others, who don't have the option of using a Starter fit to play in their chosen roles. My proposal, then, is to make Starter fits available only to players in NPCs. Hear me out here... In a metagame sense, the NPCs are paying players a contract fee to fight for them and, presumably, providing barebones fits for the clone Mercenaries to fight in. Why should these fits, meant for newbies to save them money and introduce them to a couple basic fittings, be free ad infinitum? I say keep them free as long as the player is still in a NPC. Once the player joins a PC, they would then need to provide their own fittings at market value. I run a logistics fit that is 3500 ISK. I have the Exile BPO, mind you, but a Militia AR would make the whole outfit about 4k ISK. Hardly a bank breaker for even the greenest player. I would need to die 30 or more times per match for these lowbie fits to actually cost me a serious portion of my contract fee. What is the justification, then, for Starter fits if not cost? In the incredibly unlikely event that a player runs out of money entirely while in a PC, they could either lean on their fellow Corpmates for a jump start OR simply rejoin a NPC for access to the free Starter fits, again. There were two caveats with my plan. 1) NPCs would have a Corp tax to be determined at a fair value by CCP (I suggested 11%) and 2) there should be militia grades of every weapon and item available for purchase. In a metagame sense, again, these NPCs provide free fits and vehicles and they should incur some kind of returns on their investments. At the end of the day, this would encourage new players to join PCs and it would teach them that nothing in Dust is free if they want to climb the ladder. They pay for their own fits once they are out on their own. This idea came to me, but I should note that a very similar idea was being proposed by Kagehoshi Horned Wolf about a month ago in a New Player thread he started.
Ulysses Knapse Nuevo Atlas Corporation 209	Posted - 2013.04.10 00:41:00 - [2] - Quote No. We do not need more people in NPC corps. We simply do not.
Thrillhouse Van Houten DIOS EX. 59	Posted - 2013.04.10 01:07:00 - [3] - Quote Ulysses Knapse wrote: No. We do not need more people in NPC corps. We simply do not. Uh...what? You think saving a couple thousand ISK per suit will keep people in NPC Corps? Even if they are paying a 11% or 15% tax to be in that NPC Corp? That would mean a player that loses less than 5 suits a round would be making MORE money running militia gear in a PC than running Starter gear in a NPC... Lets say both guys are losing 5 suits per match. Lets say they average about 200k ISK as their contract fee. Guy 1 is in the NPC with an 11% tax rate. Guy 2 is in a PC with a 3% tax rate. Guy 1 doesn't pay a dime for his fit. He ends each match with 178k ISK (200k - 22k). Guy 2 pays 2k per suit (plain, barebones militia assault suit). He ends each match with 184k ISK(200k - 6k[tax] - 10k[suits]). So, unless these newbies are going 0/12 every single match, it can potentially pay more money to be in the PC Corp. If a guy is going 0/12 every single match, he probably doesn't belong in a most PCs anyways. There are situations where a guy is probably paying much more than 2k per suit...but EVERYONE eventually pays a hell of a lot more than that. Why let people who know more about the game finesse dirt cheap fits using a Starter chassis? Make em pay for the MLT dropsuits like the system intends they should.
Maken Tosch Planetary Response Organisation 1946	Posted - 2013.04.10 01:08:00 - [4] - Quote Sorry but I have to agree with Ulysses here. It will just encourage players to stay in NPC corps. Besides, Eve Online still gives veteran players free newbie ships that have one mining laser and one turret fitted whenever they dock up in a pod in a station that has no ship. Keep in mind though that the newbie ships in Eve carry absolutely no value at all, can't be reprocessed to salvage minerals, and can't be sold on the market because they have no value. If you lose the ship you get no insurance either.
Maken Tosch Planetary Response Organisation 1946	Posted - 2013.04.10 01:17:00 - [5] - Quote One the one hand I can see that starter fits for a veteran players can present a problem in which a good player can make a starter fit become better at killing mercs and thus become a major money saver. On the other hand being in a player-driven corp allows that players to gain more ISK via planetary conquest and therefore they become less inclined to use the starter fits. One thing you have to remember is that the vast majority of the corporations that get involved with planetary conquest will more than likely have certain doctrines that require the member to field certain fittings that practically forces the member to use NON-starter fits like advanced suits and weapons because every PC battle will involve professional enemies fielding very expensive gear anyways. As you can see, the upcoming system itself will already encourage players to ditch the starter fits anyways and will just save them for typical pub matches like ambush.
Thrillhouse Van Houten DIOS EX. 59	Posted - 2013.04.10 01:25:00 - [6] - Quote Maken Tosch wrote: Sorry but I have to agree with Ulysses here. It will just encourage players to stay in NPC corps. Besides, Eve Online still gives veteran players free newbie ships that have one mining laser and one turret fitted whenever they dock up in a pod in a station that has no ship regardless if they are in an NPC corp or player corp. Keep in mind though that the newbie ships in Eve carry absolutely no value at all, can't be reprocessed to salvage minerals, and can't be sold on the market because they have no value. If you lose the ship you get no insurance either. Again...with a tax rate attached to NPCs, the theory gets shot to hell. A Starter Frontline fit certainly has a value. This isn't Eve, you can't reprocess dropsuit fits and sell the leavings. You can wear them onto the battlefield and you can certainly do serious damage in one. I kill people all the time with a standard AR. People in proto gear are harder to kill, but I still do it often enough. It is my choice to incur less cost for pumping out less damage and their choice to risk greater cost to pump out greater damage. I'm not incurring NO cost, though. A guy running a Starter fit IS incurring no cost. Also, I'm not sure why you guys give a rat's ass if some newberry is in a PC versus a NPC? Does it matter more to you that you killed a guy from Expert Intervention versus DIOS EX? I mean, I killed many many people while in a NPC. I kill many many people in my PC. My KDR was better in Expert Intervention because I ran pure Assault and now I run Logistics. Why does it matter to YOU that I was in a NPC? I, personally, stayed in a NPC for more than a month. The only reason I left was because I received a clearly personalized invitation to join my current Corp, not a form letter to sell out. Otherwise, I'd likely still be in Expert Intervention. Does that somehow bother other players that I stayed in my NPC? I just don't get why...
Maken Tosch Planetary Response Organisation 1946	Posted - 2013.04.10 01:37:00 - [7] - Quote What about this then... AUR BPOs. There are already players out there, me included, who have blueprint original suits and gear (militia level of course) and therefore I'm already capable of negating the cost. Any player with money in their wallet can easily make their own starter fits.
Vaerana Myshtana Bojo's School of the Trades 667	Posted - 2013.04.10 02:16:00 - [8] - Quote Goon Velators. Free ships, cheap fits + zerging n3wbz0rz = Dead Tech II Exhumers (>250M ISK) This is New Eden. http://eveinfo.net/wiki/ind~1600.htm
Maken Tosch Planetary Response Organisation 1946	Posted - 2013.04.10 03:15:00 - [9] - Quote Vaerana Myshtana wrote: Goon Velators. Free ships, cheap fits + zerging n3wbz0rz = Dead Tech II Exhumers (>250M ISK) This is New Eden. http://eveinfo.net/wiki/ind~1600.htm This. I love it when a Hulk dies to these little things.
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 2421	Posted - 2013.04.10 03:32:00 - [10] - Quote Don't use what you can't afford to lose. New players - NPC Corp or not - can't afford to lose ANYTHING. So.... don't play? Just because you joined a friend's Corp when you started? Or because you're part of a gaming clan that's moving into the game and want to actually show your colours? Good plan... There are plenty of reasons - it fits the universe, BPOs become pay-to-win, people wanting to save their ISK will stick to player Corps just to gain profit instead of staying there to learn, and even a good player might have a few bad runs and end up in the red. Having a few cheap slightly-modded starter fits would allow a good player that little bit of a chance to start turning a profit again.

Talos Alomar Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 598	Posted - 2013.04.10 03:52:00 - [11] - Quote I would support this if I can make custom militia fits for my nerds. Just send me the bill for the various militia items. I would happily pay 2k a fit for mynewbies to be outfitted with a logi with a rep tool and an injector until they get their feet under them. Better yet, just give me my corp armory...
Thrillhouse Van Houten DIOS EX. 59	Posted - 2013.04.10 06:45:00 - [12] - Quote Garrett Blacknova wrote: Don't use what you can't afford to lose. New players - NPC Corp or not - can't afford to lose ANYTHING. So.... don't play? Just because you joined a friend's Corp when you started? Or because you're part of a gaming clan that's moving into the game and want to actually show your colours? Good plan... There are plenty of reasons - it fits the universe, BPOs become pay-to-win, people wanting to save their ISK will stick to player Corps just to gain profit instead of staying there to learn, and even a good player might have a few bad runs and end up in the red. Having a few cheap slightly-modded starter fits would allow a good player that little bit of a chance to start turning a profit again. New players can play ONE MATCH and gain enough ISK to provide..30 or 40 militia fits. After 15 matches in a NPC, anyone who isn't spending what they don't have should be rolling in extra dough. Unless newbies are buying militia HAVs until they are broke after each battle, I don't see any REAL argument that suggests that they wouldn't be able to move up the gear tier ladder. I highly doubt that people's first notion upon entering the MQ for the first time is "oh, I better get out of my NPC." They probably want to play in their NPC awhile until they have a good head of steam. So let them do it with free fits. Fine. The one out of 50 guys that joins a PC right away...can play ONE MATCH and gain enough money to buy fits. I'd love to see the experienced player that gets their ISK balance so low that they can't fit 4 or 5 militia fits. I can see a guy running a deficit for awhile. Its certainly happened to me. Bad string of games using expensive gear. Never have I come anywhere close to not affording a militia fit. Come on...4k ISK a fit. MAYBE 20k ISK in losses in one match and then...boom, a 180k ISK increase. After one match. You can learn and spend ISK at the same time. Usually both occur anyways. You can't seriously expect me to believe that everyone out there wouldn't stay in a good Corp to learn because they had to pay for militia fits. I joined a PC and have done more teaching than learning. And HOW, do you propose, the notion of FREE STARTER GEAR FOR LIFE fits with the Eve Universe? At all? In ANY way? I've played Eve for two and a half years and I have never received any free ships outside of my original Ibis. How does free fits for guys with 6million SP fit the Eve universe? Its a handout...which is exactly contrary to the creedo of Risk vs. Reward that CCP eschews. The MLT BPO argument is the first thing anyone has mentioned that actually might stand on its own. I still don't agree. You could say that all AUR gear is p2w then. If you paid for your BPO...then you paid for it. End of discussion. That is how it works. If you paid for your "Burnstalk" LR or your "Neo Type II" suits or any of the other AUR gear, you are flirting with p2w. A guy with more SP and ISK can still come along and wreck your day. Hell, a guy without more SP and ISK could still come along and wreck your day. If someone is willing to pay real money for BPOs rather than ISK on MLT gear...more power to them. Isn't that how the whole AUR system works? Pay real money, get a leg up? It is almost funny to me how against this idea you guys are... I wasn't expecting a ticker tape parade, but all these people shouting HTFU from the rooftops have gone on vacation or something...
Ulysses Knapse Nuevo Atlas Corporation 209	Posted - 2013.04.10 07:03:00 - [13] - Quote Sure, you'll make more money in a Player-Owned Corporation... If they don't have a high tax rate. Even then, what if you go broke? Are they forced to leave the corp, or are you going to force players to beg for money so they can buy Militia gear? EVE prepares for that. If you go broke, you get a rookie ship that you can do low-level PVE or mine with. Sure, it is an unlikely scenario, but still.
ERIC ALIGHIERI 152d VANGUARD MERCENARIES 57	Posted - 2013.04.10 07:11:00 - [14] - Quote Thrillhouse Van Houten wrote: While responding to the recent thread started by CCP Nullarbor regarding Corporation Tax, I once again found myself mulling over the "problem" of Starter fits usage by non-newbies. While hardly a game breaker, it nonetheless does insidious work undermining the Risk vs. Reward nature of New Eden and will inevitably only serve to unbalance the fragile starting economy of Dust. Currently, Starter fits exist as a free ride to anyone willing to play a mere Assault grunt. This is true for the clueless newbie and the paramount veteran alike. It shouldn't, though, in keeping with the principles of CCP, Eve and New Eden. These Starter fits not only allow several play styles to skate by on a free chassis but make those particular choice of play styles imbalanced with the others in the game. They also allow some players the ability to spend fractions of ISK (both initially and later) compared with others, who don't have the option of using a Starter fit to play in their chosen roles. My proposal, then, is to make Starter fits available only to players in NPCs. Hear me out here... In a metagame sense, the NPCs are paying players a contract fee to fight for them and, presumably, providing barebones fits for the clone Mercenaries to fight in. Why should these fits, meant for newbies to save them money and introduce them to a couple basic fittings, be free ad infinitum? I say keep them free as long as the player is still in a NPC. Once the player joins a PC, they would then need to provide their own fittings at market value. I run a logistics fit that is 3500 ISK. I have the Exile BPO, mind you, but a Militia AR would make the whole outfit about 4k ISK. Hardly a bank breaker for even the greenest player. I would need to die 30 or more times per match for these lowbie fits to actually cost me a serious portion of my contract fee. What is the justification, then, for Starter fits if not cost? In the incredibly unlikely event that a player runs out of money entirely while in a PC, they could either lean on their fellow Corpmates for a jump start OR simply rejoin a NPC for access to the free Starter fits, again. There were two caveats with my plan. 1) NPCs would have a Corp tax to be determined at a fair value by CCP (I suggested 11%) and 2) there should be militia grades of every weapon and item available for purchase. In a metagame sense, again, these NPCs provide free fits and vehicles and they should incur some kind of returns on their investments. At the end of the day, this would encourage new players to join PCs and it would teach them that nothing in Dust is free if they want to climb the ladder. They pay for their own fits once they are out on their own. This idea came to me, but I should note that a very similar idea was being proposed by Kagehoshi Horned Wolf about a month ago in a New Player thread he started. -1
Thrillhouse Van Houten DIOS EX. 59	Posted - 2013.04.10 07:22:00 - [15] - Quote Ulysses Knapse wrote: Sure, you'll make more money in a Player-Owned Corporation... If they don't have a high tax rate. Even then, what if you go broke? Are they forced to leave the corp, or are you going to force players to beg for money so they can buy Militia gear? EVE prepares for that. If you go broke, you get a rookie ship that you can do low-level PVE or mine with. Sure, it is an unlikely scenario, but still. Its your choice to join a Corp with a high tax rate...completely and utterly...knowing full well what you are joining when you join. You can't complain that your Corp with the 45% tax rate means you might run out of money someday because you always have the option of going to a Corp with a 0% rate or a 4% rate. You guys are all bringing up what Eve has like it is a perfect correlation. It isn't. "...you get a rookie ship that you can do low-level PvE or mine with." Dust doesn't have low level PvE (Soon tm) or mining. I took 5k ISK in Eve and turned it into 500 million ISK in 3 weeks just sitting in Jita 4/4 in my pod. A friend of mine took 5k ISK and turned it into 1 billion ISK in 3 weeks. Good freaking luck doing that in Dust. My point is, there is only one way to gain money in Dust at current and it relies solely on having fittings. I see new avenues for gaining ISK in the future, but most of them will require fittings as well (all but trading gear for profit). You even admit that the scenario is unlikely. I propose that not only is it unlikely, but would only ever happen if someone was TRYING to make it happen. MLT fits are just so cheap that I don't ever see anyone who has figured Dust out enough to join a PC EVER getting that low on ISK. They'd have to be trying. I started an alt back in early Feb. She was a DS pilot. I bought the expensive skills and MLT DSs and almost ran her out of money. I still ran MLT fits on her because I wanted to have two equipment slots for triage AND reviving...and I still never got so low on cash that I couldn't pay for more fits. That was a DS pilot making the barest minimum of ISK income from pub matches. Just look at it systemically, then. Imagine every single fit you've ever used. Imagine all the Starters you've burned through. Now, imagine if there were no Starters and you'd burned through MLT fits. Multiply that by the thousands of players of Dust. Can you fathom how much money is being robbed out of the economy by Starter fits and BPOs? How systemically unhealthy that must be and WILL BE when CCP finally decides to open the market? I shudder to think...
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 2430	Posted - 2013.04.10 07:28:00 - [16] - Quote Thrillhouse Van Houten wrote: Garrett Blacknova wrote: Just because you joined a friend's Corp when you started? Or because you're part of a gaming clan that's moving into the game and want to actually show your colours? Good plan... I'd love to see the experienced player that gets their ISK balance so low that they can't fit 4 or 5 militia fits. So what you're saying is... you didn't actually read what I wrote? Well played. Maybe try... ummm... actually reading before replying next time? Thrillhouse Van Houten wrote: Come on...4k ISK a fit. MAYBE 20k ISK in losses in one match and then...boom, a 180k ISK increase. After one match. So you're saying you've never seen a total noob run worse than 0/5? Cool story. And 180,000 ISK is an overestimation for a bad (0 kills, 0WP) game - it's easy to get less than 180k in a match if you're bad (or not trying... or really, REALLY unlucky with Ambush spawns). Quote: And HOW, do you propose, the notion of FREE STARTER GEAR FOR LIFE fits with the Eve Universe? At all? In ANY way? I've played Eve for two and a half years and I have never received any free ships outside of my original Ibis. How does free fits for guys with 6million SP fit the Eve universe? Its a handout...which is exactly contrary to the creedo of Risk vs. Reward that CCP eschews. As has already been mentioned in this thread, before I showed up, and which you seem to have conveniently ignored... ANOTHER FREE SHIP when you arrive in your pod at a station where you don't already have a ship waiting. Basic cheap junk gear NEEDS to be always available. The starter fits are - quite literally - the worst gear in the game. With the right skills, they can sort of stand on their own - but not reliably. Quote: The MLT BPO argument is the first thing anyone has mentioned that actually might stand on its own. I still don't agree. You could say that all AUR gear is p2w then. If you paid for your BPO...then you paid for it. End of discussion. That is how it works. If you paid for your "Burnstalk" LR or your "Neo Type II" suits or any of the other AUR gear, you are flirting with p2w. No. As long as you can get the basic junk gear for free, Corp or not, having a half-step above it - or actually Militia-level gear - for free isn't P2W, it's par-for-the-course F2P. Having infinite-use gear when other players CAN'T hold onto the same gear without sticking to NPC Corps is blatantly P2W.
Ulysses Knapse Nuevo Atlas Corporation 213	Posted - 2013.04.10 07:31:00 - [17] - Quote No matter how stupid it is, there are people who WILL stay in NPC corporations just to get free fits. Doesn't matter if it is actually profitable. There are some people who care more about not losing something than they do about gaining something. Don't give them an oppurtunity to do this, just let the current system be. OR you can make starter fits cost ISK for everyone. You can't just give something to people who just stand in NPC corporations but not those who are in Player Corporations. You just can't.
Daedric Lothar Onslaught Inc 170	Posted - 2013.04.10 12:01:00 - [18] - Quote I am pretty happy with how the starter fits go, I would like to see a small buff to Standard, Advanced, Proto to push them up a bit, but the PG/CPU restrictions on Militia gear is a decent balancer. Most everyone else in this thread is correct, we need to find a way to get people out of NPC corps and into Corps, and this does the opposite. A big focus on this game should be corps, its how you meet people, meeting people makes you want to keep playing the game longer, playing longer means more fun and more $$ for CCP which means better expansions. So lets focus on gettign people out of NPC corps, if you bring a Newbie fit to a corp match, you are gonna get smoked. It will balance itself, you are describing a symptom, not a cause.
Mary Sedillo XERCORE E X T E R M I N A T U S 3	Posted - 2013.04.12 09:51:00 - [19] - Quote I think a few proto suit wearers are hurting over being killed by militia weapons. The free suits allow for a 'saving of face' when it comes to an enemy team over-running you. A way to continue playing while at the same time no longer bleeding ISK. Anyways, proto tears are the best tears.
Aeon Amadi WarRavens 1155	Posted - 2013.04.12 09:55:00 - [20] - Quote Thrillhouse Van Houten wrote: Currently, Starter fits exist as a free ride to anyone willing to play a mere Assault grunt. This is true for the clueless newbie and the paramount veteran alike. It shouldn't, though, in keeping with the principles of CCP, Eve and New Eden. These Starter fits not only allow several play styles to skate by on a free chassis but make those particular choice of play styles imbalanced with the others in the game. They also allow some players the ability to spend fractions of ISK (both initially and later) compared with others, who don't have the option of using a Starter fit to play in their chosen roles This is actually a really bad idea and I'll explain why with one sentence. In Eve Online, you're not forced into PvP against people who already know how to play the game and know how to play it far better than you.



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