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Beren Hurin OMNI Endeavors O.M.N.I. Initiative 333	Posted - 2013.04.08 13:53:00 - [1] - Quote You'd have a hard time convincing me that the biggest thing working against new players is map awareness. There are very distinct tactical advantages that a map gives that is multiplied by a good squad, skills, and fittings. The mid to long range laser is beast-mode from the 'bridge or crow's nest' as I've heard it called. The counter to a fixed position there is to assault from the north and/or west pipes with grenades/mass driver/AR. Establishing a stronghold from Charlie is an alternative to this as it provides enough cover to be safe, and harrass the bridge, especially if you have snipers. But it looks like that never happended during that video. The ground position on Ashland really only works if you have vehicle superiority, and even then it has a tactical disadvantage. I haven't used the laser a lot, but it seems that one of the biggest things that it 'forgives' is moving targets. The heat buildup means that if you aren't finished by the first half of a firing cycle the damage increase will get you if the user gets you on another sweep. This means that it may be one of the ideal candidates for a weapon that is good at hitting targets darting in and out of cover. A lack of awareness of this by new players means they don't know how weak they are to different weapons. Map awareness is a giant knowledge gap for new players, and that could thing that us as a community could work on to improve...maybe? And also, I've been messing around with 3x damage mods (A-series logi) on my ADV Assault Mass Driver and imagine that a max damage assault mass driver could mean something like 120+ splash damage out to 8+ meters 8 rounds at a time from over 100 meters away.
Beren Hurin OMNI Endeavors O.M.N.I. Initiative 333	Posted - 2013.04.08 14:16:00 - [2] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: Yup, totally not broken. And when they take sharpshooter away from AR users you all will be crying more. I'm telling you, the player-base is going to have to spread out in terms of its weapons use. If 70% of users' optimal damage range is under 30m then YES the laser will be OP, but you shouldn't nerf the laser so that you can cater to the vanilla weapon choices of people. I'm thinking about a sort of tactical-weapon use 101 for every weapon out there. David Cross' AR strafing video was quite helpful for AR users, but really not too valid for much else out there. There are equally great tactics for a lot of other weapons out there that people should know and will help to balance out what seems to be unfair advantages of these combinations.
Beren Hurin OMNI Endeavors O.M.N.I. Initiative 333	Posted - 2013.04.08 14:37:00 - [3] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: Beren Hurin wrote: Cat Merc wrote: Yup, totally not broken. And when they take sharpshooter away from AR users you all will be crying more. I'm telling you, the player-base is going to have to spread out in terms of its weapons use. If 70% of users' optimal damage range is under 30m then YES the laser will be OP, but you shouldn't nerf the laser so that you can cater to the vanilla weapon choices of people. I'm thinking about a sort of tactical-weapon use 101 for every weapon out there. David Cross' AR strafing video was quite helpful for AR users, but really not too valid for much else out there. There are equally great tactics for a lot of other weapons out there that people should know and will help to balance out what seems to be unfair advantages of these combinations. Actually no, I could not care less about the sharpshooter thing. I have sharpshooter level III and I'm doing just fine. The weapon is broken, if you are watching this and think otherwise you probably want to check your eyes. What do you mean you have sharpshooter now? I don't think you get my point, the range of AR users is going to drop because (as far as I've heard) there will no longer be a sharpshooter skill. In exchange there will be a skill that reduces damage spread/kickback. I've seen that supposedly there is a damage scaling OPness of the viziam that devs have confirmed. Okay. But you still haven't really dealt with my main assertions about the usefullness of the laser rifle. I see most of the kills are dudes idiotically running out of cover, simply not moving while being melted, trying to counter with the AR. Having a GEK/Duvolle on you for the same amount of time with damage mods would result in the same thing, just not at that distance. Are you saying that you want AR to be essentially equal to the laser rifle? I'm open to suggestions as to your suggestions on what to fix. But so far you just crying "BROKE!" isn't really constructive. Map control issues are separate from weapon balance issues. Weapon balance issues are related to player skill choice issues-which also relate to map control issues.
Beren Hurin OMNI Endeavors O.M.N.I. Initiative 333	Posted - 2013.04.08 14:42:00 - [4] - Quote Meh...watched it again and wanted to change my opinion. Most kills came from spawn camps. But I really, still don't think this is about the laser rifle being broken. I think its the spawn system not recognizing the danger of a location when it can be safely attacked from long range. But the difficulty of LOS balancing issues on maps will scale by orders of magnitude the larger the maps get. I really don't think the spawn system would be any more fair on 3 to 4x larger maps. Also, we have figured out that if you hit sprint while you spawn/revive you can more or less instantly move rather than having to dumbfreeze for a couple seconds. Funny thing is that the OBS at 4:50 kind of did the other team a favor by cleaning out the spawn seed so that people wouldn't continue to get placed in a farmable area.
Beren Hurin OMNI Endeavors O.M.N.I. Initiative 334	Posted - 2013.04.08 15:09:00 - [5] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: The AR range as far as I know isn't dropping, just the sharphooter skill won't increase the range anymore. And just to make you understand, a laser touched me for a millisecond (It moved across my view, didn't even target me but the heavy near me) and it just removed 550hp in that moment. The AR can't do that, you have to aim properly and put down around 10 bullets. I don't want the AR to be like that, I want lasers to stop have ridiculous amounts of DPS. OR make it so that you have to actually hold the laser on the enemy and only then the damage increases, instead of just the weapon builds up heat hence its now more powerful. My only point about sharpshooter is that users will 'experience' a range decrease if they are expecting their AR to feel like it did after Uprising hits. Yes range wont be decreased, but those with sharpshooter trained now won't have the same range. I really like how CCP makes each weapon's tactical use very different. The damage distribution potential for laser weapons is back end loaded with a whole clip. My guess is that that 550 hp wasn't on the front end of the laser's cycle, also I'm going to continue to reserve judgement until they say that whatever viziam issue there currently is is claimed to be fixed. As far as 10 bullets from an AR, 750 RPM means 12.5 rounds per second which adds up to around 400 damage each second. My guess is that the laser rifle can't do that kind of damage until the 3rd or 4th second of firing, and then the user enters the tradeoff of 'do I want to risk overheating in exchange for massive damage or not'. What I'm hearing from you is that you want the laser rifle to work a tad more like the assault rifle in that the damage distribution cycle should be flatter and require the user to have to have significantly increased tracking skills. It seems to have been designed to be less of a tracking weapon and and a more forgiving 'sweeper'. Also what do you think should be the trade off in damage increase of a weapon if they have more mechanics overheating/seizing/scaling damage to worry/think about? Is it fair for them to get a little more potential damage?
Beren Hurin OMNI Endeavors O.M.N.I. Initiative 334	Posted - 2013.04.08 15:21:00 - [6] - Quote DUST Fiend wrote: I really hope they fix the LR in Uprising so that it requires skill to use If by 'skill' you mean 'the same tactics that an AR user has to use to be effective'. Emotionally I don't want this to be a valid argument. If you want laser rifle (or all weapon users) to have to track-strafe their way to effective damage, then IMO you are arguing for a more vanilla game. I hypothesize on a per clip basis, the AR can still deal out more damage although, I'd like to see someone do that math/experiment. AR damage is static and laser really isn't. The scrambler rifle is going to be yet another iteration on all of this and I'm anxious to see how it factors in. I'm guessing its going to be between the AR and laser (in damage/range) and therefore even out this seeming inbalance.
Beren Hurin OMNI Endeavors O.M.N.I. Initiative 334	Posted - 2013.04.08 15:31:00 - [7] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: [quote=Beren Hurin] You make some good points. Keep the damage the same, but the max damage should be much lower than it is right now. Also, you can't swipe with the AR, so the whole "400dps" point is moot. My whole unclear point on swiping vs RPM on AR was more that the average dps of a laser rifle over the life of a clip is probably pretty comparative, especially if you are burst firing the laser. Also, I never said that you could swipe the AR. I said the opposite, that it was more of a tracking weapon. Anyway, If you spend the entire clip without letting up you could probably exceep the DPS on an AR at the same level, but you are risking other things. On top of this lasers seem to eat ammo faster than ARs. If you look at the video, its annoyingly difficult to see the HP of suits due the the laser's sights, but if we assume most suits you were killing had around 350+ HP I was counting about 2.5 to 3 seconds to kill most of them. That really isn't THAT amazing as far as DPS. I still think the main problem here was that people had their shields mostly gone before they could move.
Beren Hurin OMNI Endeavors O.M.N.I. Initiative 334	Posted - 2013.04.08 15:34:00 - [8] - Quote DUST Fiend wrote: All I have to say is that the laser is the ONLY weapon that rewards you for MISSING. Mull that one over. Disagree. You do more damage to a player if you don't miss. our damage does not increase if you miss. I still maintain that the power of laser rifles is primarily that there aren't enough skilled players with weapons that can threaten laser users at their range. Mobile shields will also more or less indirectly 'nerf' long range weapons. Until then, learn to love mass driver and sniper users.
Beren Hurin OMNI Endeavors O.M.N.I. Initiative 334	Posted - 2013.04.08 16:22:00 - [9] - Quote Goon ReGnUM wrote: And you must be new to Youtube for posting that video Is Goon Regnum Regnum_Dei reborn?
Beren Hurin OMNI Endeavors O.M.N.I. Initiative 334	Posted - 2013.04.08 16:44:00 - [10] - Quote DUST Fiend wrote: lowratehitman wrote: You clearly have PERSONAL problems with the LR. You're right. I PERSONALLY have a problem with a weapon doing insane damage just by swiping past an enemy halfway across the field. I thought in a FPS one is required to aim What exactly is the requirement to 'aim'? Aiming with an HMG, is different than a sniper, is different than a MD, is different than an AR and laser. Like i've said, it is sounding more and more like you just want AR wars. You say that this swiping isn't fair because it can kill someone in a split second. I doubt it could do that for more than 1-2 seconds. And that's generous. Like LRH said compare this to a blaster tank. Very few people complain about a blaster tank spamming splashy rounds that OHK people. The other question that I wonder about is what does a laser hit 'feel' like. I know you can hear the normal gun sound and feel the rumble from an AR hit, but I wonder if a hidden disadvantage for the person getting lasered is that the sound isn't expected and I'm unsure of the rumble effect. This is still a spawn problem...

Beren Hurin OMNI Endeavors O.M.N.I. Initiative 334	Posted - 2013.04.08 17:42:00 - [11] - Quote DUST Fiend wrote: ....I'm a SHOTGUN SCOUT...the supposed counter to LR users, since I thrive where they're weakest. I know it's difficult to grasp, but it's actually possible to make ::gasp:: observations I would like to think that the MD is at least on par with the LR as far as counters go. The ones who can find good cover and assault from it against the LR can deal some hurt. A lot of times when I see LR users they aren't by themselves, which makes attacking them up close more difficult.
Beren Hurin OMNI Endeavors O.M.N.I. Initiative 334	Posted - 2013.04.08 17:47:00 - [12] - Quote DUST Fiend wrote: That's a valid point, I have the same issue against LR users in squads. I counter them by staying out of sight usually, though I take pride in how sneaky I can be (and I'm not even remotely focused with SP, it's literally all over the place. So freaking grateful for this SP respec, I've learned my lesson lol. It'll be nice to have Prototype gear for a change) Yeah my guess too is that the LR user may not be the biggest threat up close, so they wouldn't be your first target. But I would really like to see a corp match on Youtube focused on a team that was primarily sensor-dampened just to see what the effect is.
Beren Hurin OMNI Endeavors O.M.N.I. Initiative 336	Posted - 2013.04.08 18:25:00 - [13] - Quote Jaiden Longshot wrote: BLAH..BLAH..more constructive stuff...BLAH BLAH [...what i want to respond to...] The video illustrates a problem in the spawning and map design much more so than a problem with the weapon. What we have to keep in mind is that the game is designed by teams also, who are doing the best to integrate all of their mechanics. While there might be one team working on the spawn algorithm, there is another working on map sockets/design/LOS issues, another on weapon playability, another on general gameplay mechanics. When all of these teams try to integrate, they cannot control what we as players do as much as they can try to mitigate it. Like you seem to agree with me here Jaiden, what we don't like about what the LR is doing here is that it is 'farming the current spawn mechanic'. I'm hesitant to say that the 'spawn system is broken', or that the 'map system is broken' there. Where I think some development issues will still exist in the game, is at the edges various development teams' systems collide. It is up to CCP to figure out how they want to resolve these things, but use recognizing accurately what our problem is is key. So these are the things that we may (or may not) agree are not 'feeling' right: 1) Spawn seeds don't account for local deaths-leading to camping by long-range weapons. 2) Spawn movement delay means you can be killed before moving. Then we have the secondary issues that are more contested, and a little less about design and more about player response and organisation. 1) The ADS technique of a LR feels more forgiving than that of an AR. 2) There is an extreme damage window of a LR that few other weapons have. 3) The ability to respond to an LR by an AR player is extremely weak. While many weapons can at least have some counter fire by AR. It is hard for an LR to be bothered by an AR player in the LR user's optimals.
Beren Hurin OMNI Endeavors O.M.N.I. Initiative 337	Posted - 2013.04.08 18:31:00 - [14] - Quote DUST Fiend wrote: lowratehitman wrote: I see you did not read where I spent almost 2 million sp to have that range, or that I spent another what..million sp to have the viziam..or the how much to get weponary 5 ..and how much sp for a proto suit, or the 240k isk per death? You ignore all my points, you just have it set in your heart you are right just by "observing". Get skilled than debate..k? And you seem to be missing the point that spending SP shouldn't justify a weapon doing the damage that the LR does at the range it does when building up damage off target. This is all semantics dude. You could say that forge guns, railguns, and charge snipers all build up damage off target. The damage is scaling whether its being applied or not. I know your feeling...I get really PISSED when i have to lock onto a HAV for half a second out of cover with my SL and that split second is enough time for the blaster turret to pin to me and OHK me (often THROUGH walls). SL locking is also an example of 'building up damage off target', but just a little differently. Tell me why must all weapon types be bent to the old fashioned FPS perspective of 'my reticle must be directly over target'? That has yet to be justified... IMO that is not the only thing that justifies a skilled user and we all will have to live in a game where that is the case. There are many ways to let players find 'aiming/moving/firing/applying damage' fun and dynamic. An obsession with this hand-holding style where everyone must ADS at 20m and strafe L2R just will make for an uninteresting game.
Beren Hurin OMNI Endeavors O.M.N.I. Initiative 337	Posted - 2013.04.08 18:36:00 - [15] - Quote DUST Fiend wrote: lowratehitman wrote: So now its "squad suport" ? Your meds are ruining your reading comprehension bro. WITH squad support. You greatly reduce any chance of a close range attack, allowing you to deal increased damage at range because your missed shots are still benefiting you. With 'squad support' the sadly situationally UP AR users getting mowed down hopefully have one lucky guy who will either swap to sniper, lay down an uplink in an unfarmable area, and/or get in a position to shell the 'dug-in' forces.
Beren Hurin OMNI Endeavors O.M.N.I. Initiative 338	Posted - 2013.04.08 18:51:00 - [16] - Quote DUST Fiend wrote: I just fail to see why you're rewarded for missing, is all. I've never once seen a forge gun, rail gun, or charge sniper rifle swipe back and forth over someone for full damage. I want you to reword this idea/notion that you are 'rewarded for missing' because it isn't working for me. The single way you may be a little correct in that is that you are 'rewarded' by not alerting the player to your damage you are about to do to them until it is too late. Otherwise it is not 'rewarding' the laser user if they aren't hitting their target. If the laser user were to hit the target that he isn't currently, he WOULD kill them faster. That is simply not a reward. The damage DOES NOT GO UP just because you are NOT hitting them. It scales regardless. Once again, breaking this down. There are discrete issues here. We have the 'sweeping' and the 'damage scaling'. With damage scaling- The laser rifle is NOT UNLIKE many other weapons in that it is not optimally effective the 'instant' you place the reticle over the target and fire. The time between 'press fire' and 'apply damage' is delayed. The management of that delay is where skill comes in. With AR fire. There is no delay. YOUR AR skill comes in response to the player's RESPONSE to your fire. With 'sweeping'- The sweeping technique is a function of the management of that forementioned 'delay'. That beam hitting the ground is wasted ammo. It is a step toward a 5 second burnout and additional reload time. It is time that you are advertising your location and the fact that you are pointed in a specific direction. The LR skill comes in forgiving a little bit of the difficulty in mitigating the target's response and trading it for mitigating a few more difficulties that the weapon mechanics themselves pose.
Beren Hurin OMNI Endeavors O.M.N.I. Initiative 340	Posted - 2013.04.08 19:19:00 - [17] - Quote DUST Fiend wrote: Lasers should build up damage on target, with the damage slowly lowering when off target. Basically, if you're on target all the time, you build up to max damage, and own. If your aim is meh, but you focus on one target, you'll keep fairly even DPS, slowly going up... Sorry man but I just think your requirement is arbitrary or if anything squeezing the LR into an AR paradigm 'just because'. If you want to see LR change to only get a damage increase when it is on target, then I want to see a penalty to AR when it isn't shooting on target. So lets trade...AR gets a 25% heat buildup when not on target and the LR can get reset when not on target. Then it's even. Both get penalties when not on target... As for me an my mass driver I'll keep my splash damage when I don't exactly hit you
Beren Hurin OMNI Endeavors O.M.N.I. Initiative 341	Posted - 2013.04.08 19:38:00 - [18] - Quote DUST Fiend wrote: Beren Hurin wrote: Sorry man but I just think your requirement is arbitrary or if anything squeezing the LR into an AR paradigm 'just because'. If you want to see LR to only get a damage increase when it is on target then I want to see a penalty to AR when it isn't shooting on target. So lets trade...AR gets a 25% heat buildup when not on target and the LR can get reset when not on target. Then it's even. Both get penalties when not on target... As for me an my mass driver I'll keep my splash damage when I don't exactly hit you They do, it's called weapon spread MDs are supposed to do splash damage, so that's fine. Like I said in my previous post, perhaps the damage potential is too high, and that's what I actually have a problem with. I just have trouble wrapping my head around a weapon doing more damage the longer it's fired at the sky, but I also don't know **** about lasers. I do know that top end damage is way too high right now, as apparently confirmed by CCP Wolfman in IRC. Honest question from ignorance...isn't there an HMG that gets more precise the longer you fire? Thereby doing more damage?
Beren Hurin OMNI Endeavors O.M.N.I. Initiative 341	Posted - 2013.04.08 19:39:00 - [19] - Quote mollerz wrote: I enjoy using the laser rifle I have no problems with being killed on the receiving end of it save one... A laser shouldn't slow you down when you are getting hit by it. It makes no sense that a very hot stream of light would stick to you like glue and reduce your speed. Unless it sliced your legs off, of course. If they change that small detail I'd be fine with it, just like I am fine with every weapon being as deadly as they can make it. It makes no sense to make weapons weaker. But that got me thinking.. it would be pretty sweet to be able to laser some into pieces as their shield and armor flew off. Wait...the laser slows people down?
Beren Hurin OMNI Endeavors O.M.N.I. Initiative 342	Posted - 2013.04.08 20:02:00 - [20] - Quote DUST Fiend wrote: Beren Hurin wrote: Honest question from ignorance...isn't there an HMG that gets more precise the longer you fire? Thereby doing more damage? All HMGs do this. They start off with a large spread that focuses as it's fired. I personally feel the HMG needs a tad more heat build up, but this is primarily balanced in the long run by just how bad and overpriced Prototype Heavy suits are. I'm quite curious to see all the changes to suits, weapons, and overall gameplay mechanics come Uprising. DUST Fiend wrote: ...I just have trouble wrapping my head around a weapon doing more damage the longer it's fired at the sky... So do you have trouble wrapping your head around the HMG?

Beren Hurin OMNI Endeavors O.M.N.I. Initiative 342	Posted - 2013.04.08 20:07:00 - [21] - Quote Tech Ohm Eaven wrote: Beren Hurin wrote: mollerz wrote: I enjoy using the laser rifle I have no problems with being killed on the receiving end of it save one... A laser shouldn't slow you down when you are getting hit by it. It makes no sense that a very hot stream of light would stick to you like glue and reduce your speed. Unless it sliced your legs off, of course. If they change that small detail I'd be fine with it, just like I am fine with every weapon being as deadly as they can make it. It makes no sense to make weapons weaker. But that got me thinking.. it would be pretty sweet to be able to laser some into pieces as their shield and armor flew off. Wait...the laser slows people down? ...blah...blah...SCIENCE BITCHES...blah...blah... I meant does the laser in the game slow people down?
Beren Hurin OMNI Endeavors O.M.N.I. Initiative 343	Posted - 2013.04.08 20:15:00 - [22] - Quote DUST Fiend wrote: Beren Hurin wrote: So do you have trouble wrapping your head around the HMG? I actually do, in terms of just how it functions. How does it shoot off to the sides when it starts, then magically get more accurate? It makes no sense. Also, the HMGs accuracy is what increases. While technically upping the damage via more bullets landed, it doesn't magically make the weapon do more base damage. Unlike the LR, (which I have already admitted, I don't understand the physics of lasers) I just find it silly. Well then, imagine the beam of the laser getting more and more precise focusing the heat/damage of the laser onto a smaller and smaller spot. So the amount of photons fired is the same, but the area it is hitting on armor is getting smaller resulting in the ability to cut faster/deeper...? Does that work?
Beren Hurin OMNI Endeavors O.M.N.I. Initiative 352	Posted - 2013.04.10 18:45:00 - [23] - Quote What if damage mods increased weapon sway, and they could only be neutralized by crouching? It wouldn't be as dramatic as sniper sway, and would be the least detrimental for laser rifle as you sweep it anyway. It would also mean that people using these damage mods would have to expose themselves above railings and in other places to use thier damage mods effectively.

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