DUST Search - Corporation Tax

Garrett Blacknova wrote:

1. Definitely. In fact, I'd prefer more options than just "X% of income" - Corps should be able to set tax in such a way that it encourages members to play regularly. If someone wants a highly-active Corp, they could set a fixed-rate periodic tax on members instead of (or possibly as well as) a % of your income. That way, if you're more active, the tax hurts less. Also, we could do with a "tax exempt" option for certain players - or at least certain roles.

2. As a default, yes. But I think it should be possible to tax both groups at different rates if the Corp chooses to do so.

3. I'd say yes, but it depends what you want to do with this. You don't want to force new players to create a wave of startup Corps that will never go anywhere, and setting the tax bar too high will make everyone start by creating their own Corp just to avoid being taxed. You also don't want to drop all the way down to 0 if the aim is to encourage players to move out of NPC Corps. I'd say probably 10% is a good level, some player Corps will use that as a "baseline" level, some will push for more on the grounds that "we're better Corpmates" and some will ask less to give people more incentive to join.


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A'Real Fury D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N 32	Posted - 2013.04.06 18:04:00 - [1] - Quote Generally if you are being taxed then you receive services from the Government as a result of being a member or citizen. At the moment with the power solely in the hands of the directors they could set a tax on all members but the only ones that get to use the money are the elite members of the corp during battles be it PC, Instant or corp. All the rest of the members see is a corp taking your money and others having fun with it in their 'paid by you' proto suits. I would rather see a profit sharing scheme so all members feel involved. It could work as follows: The corp sets a base % that all members contribute and if the corp makes a profit from the sale of clones , and other stuff in the future, then that profit is shared among all members of the corp based on that percentage set. If you contribute more then you get a larger percentage of the profit. As part of it the corp would set up an additional fund that diverts a percentage of the profit into to help with future projects. So what you would have is a corp contribution of say 10% and the corp makes a profit and 80% goes to the members and 20% goes into the future defence fund. Of course this only works if a corp is profitable. The way PC is set up then it would be insane for any Corp to field anything less than their elite players during all PC battles which means that the rest of the corp has no real involvement and never sees any benefit from the tax as it all goes to equipping the elite players. For those corps that are not profitable then as an alternative they could provide useful services such as seminars on how the UI works, what skills to invest in and actual training events so that their members see some benefit from the money they are "taxed". Otherwise all that you are describing is nothing more than a parasite I.e. the corp taxes you and you see no benefit as it is all going to the directors and elite members. For the majority of the player base what is the incentive to pay taxes and more importantly keep on paying taxes to a given corps. Done right the idea of a tax, or whatever scheme is thought up, could create a sense of community as corps try to entice players to their corps because of what they provide to all of their members,not just the best players, but if done wrong you will see big move to NPC corps just so players can spite those who do benefit from the tax levied on them. If you want to levy a tax then what will you provide in return?
A'Real Fury D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N 33	Posted - 2013.04.07 08:33:00 - [2] - Quote 1. Yes 2. Yes 3. No The reason that NPC Corps should not be taxed or at a very minimal level e.g. 1% is to give players choice. As I stated in my previous email the primary beneficiaries from the tax will be those who actually get to play in PC. By this I mean the specific members of the corp chosen to defend/attack other territories and not the other members of that corp who are also contributing isk. Currently the system looks like it would be biased towards the Corp and away from the members i.e. the directors are under no obligation to share the wealth or anything else. So leaving the NPC's as untaxed encourages the player corps to provide incentives as to why that specific player should move to that specific corp and if the promises are not kept then that player can vote with there feet and move to another player corp or back to the NPC. It should NOT be that players are 'encouraged' to leave the NPC's through punitive tax rates but for player based corps providing benefits to bring in new members. The obligation should not be placed on the player it should be placed on the player-corp. Do we really want to see a situation where new players join the game, or existing players, are forced to join player corps when it is currently very difficult to compare corps to find one you would like. In addition to the fact that new or low level players spend most of their time dying, will not get into PC unless they are extremely good at FPS, and spend their time watching the corp take their money and give it to other members. Not fun at all. And anything that reduces a person fun in playing a game is always risky for game developers. States that simply take your money and give nothing back generally find themselves in civil wars at some point. An option not available in Dust. So I re-iterate give players a place to go where they do not pay taxes, other than creating alt toons for 1 man corps, and place the emphasis on the player corps to provide services that new and existing players want so that these corps are able to recruit and keep members. There are a number of corps that already do this and I believe these should be the templates for future and current corps if you want to tax players.
A'Real Fury D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N 34	Posted - 2013.04.07 22:17:00 - [3] - Quote @Thrillhouse Van Houten. I think DreadPirate Robertson was trying to say is that it would be useful if it were possible for a Corp to be able to set a Personal Allowance level before any tax is deducted for example the corp sets the personal allowance at 150k Isk per battle. So the player earns 200k Isk for that battle and the tax rate is 10%. The first 150k is not taxable as this is the personal allowance set by the corp. Of the remaining 50k Isk (200 - 150) it is taxed at the 10% rate i.e the corp receives 5000 Isk from that player. I view it as the Mercs are independent contractors, not employees, and are entitled to tax deductions and in the UK a Personal Allowance. I do not know what tax structures exist elsewhere but I assume most people are able to claim some form of tax deduction.
A'Real Fury D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N 38	Posted - 2013.04.09 08:17:00 - [4] - Quote I have noted that a number of players have requested the tools to be able to monitor who sends in how much isk to the corp and then how it is spent by the corps. Obviously this is a necessary and very important tool. However, I believe that players should also have access to tools that allow them to see how much isk is being provided to the corp through taxes, drilled down to the individual contributions of members, as well as any profits generated from the sale of clones etc. They should also be able to see how the corp is spending that isk right down to who the corp is giving isk to or if a warehouse is instituted then who who is drawing on it and to what value as well as seeing the purchase of facilities etc This report should be auto generated by the system on not by the CEO/Directors of the company. In this manner the individual members of the corp have some means of holding the corp accountable or at least allowing them to quickly decide to leave that corp. In addition to this players should be able to see the general accounts, with less detailed info on display, of all corps so that they can decide if they want to join a particular corp. Finally for this to work there needs to be a searchable database listing all corps, and their accounts, that the players can access so they can make informed decisions about which corp to join. This obviously needs to contain details like how many members their of that corp, tax rates, philosophy of the corp, performance, and assets etc
A'Real Fury D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N 38	Posted - 2013.04.09 11:08:00 - [5] - Quote Garrett Blacknova wrote: 1. Definitely. In fact, I'd prefer more options than just "X% of income" - Corps should be able to set tax in such a way that it encourages members to play regularly. If someone wants a highly-active Corp, they could set a fixed-rate periodic tax on members instead of (or possibly as well as) a % of your income. That way, if you're more active, the tax hurts less. Also, we could do with a "tax exempt" option for certain players - or at least certain roles. 2. As a default, yes. But I think it should be possible to tax both groups at different rates if the Corp chooses to do so. 3. I'd say yes, but it depends what you want to do with this. You don't want to force new players to create a wave of startup Corps that will never go anywhere, and setting the tax bar too high will make everyone start by creating their own Corp just to avoid being taxed. You also don't want to drop all the way down to 0 if the aim is to encourage players to move out of NPC Corps. I'd say probably 10% is a good level, some player Corps will use that as a "baseline" level, some will push for more on the grounds that "we're better Corpmates" and some will ask less to give people more incentive to join. I can see what you are getting but I do have some reservations. In answer to your points: 1. What you are talking about is a penalty clause. I think if you find a player is not active enough for your corp you should boot them out. As this penalty clause would allow for significant abuse and is penalising people for having a life outside of the game. This is extreme but for example you could set the penalty clause at 10 million isk a day if that specific player does not play 100 games that day because you know they are away etc and have plenty of isk in their account. 2. This takes elements from points 1 and 2. You could refer to it as the Friends, Family and Favourites tax i.e. you set a very low tax on them and a higher tax on everyone else. When you made the point I assume you referring to members who are low on isk or were new players in general. 3. I agree with you a 5-10% tax for NPC corps so new players get used to the idea and don't all rush to make mini corps that have no involvement with the wider community. There is nothing wrong with your suggestions and under the write circumstances would be very useful to a corp but with no means to counter the power of the CEO/Directors or even monitor their activities it would just make it too easy to abuse these functions. Yes we live in a harsh universe but we shouldn't make it too easy to steal isk from corp members.
A'Real Fury D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N 38	Posted - 2013.04.09 12:46:00 - [6] - Quote @Garrett Blacknova 1. Nothing wrong with flat rates. My concern was more to do with how easy it would to abuse and if I remember correctly, not always the case, part of your suggestion was the possibility that the flat rate could be in combination with a percentage % corp tax. The result being you get taxed on each battle as well as paying an additional flat rate, at specified times even if you are not online playing the game, that comes out of your Isk savings. So for example you go on holiday for 10 days, you obviously won't be paying any income tax but the corp could still be taking out Isk from your account while you are away. Another scenario could be the CEO got bored or running low on funds and drains your account dry while you were away. This mechanism would make this easy. Like I said in principle I like the idea but without the right safeguards why would any player put themselves in a situation like this. It is one thing to steal the corps Isk but how would any of us feel if we came back to the game to find our personal Isk had been taken. It is not even a matter of HTFU you would just avoid corps that could do this. 2. Same as number 1. It is a matter of safeguards and transparency. Ultimately if we are unhappy with the rates of tax our governments introduce we can vote them out of power or even take them to court. These options are not really available in Dust. All you can do is leave and by then the damage is done. 3. It is not simply a matter of better management tools for the managers of the corp it is also providing tools to all the members of the corp, from lowest to highest, to monitor what money is brought into the corp and how it is being managed and spent. It goes back to the argument about safeguards and how easy it would to abuse the members of the corp who would be paying these taxes. Again what you have suggested are good ideas, I rather like the idea of paying 100-200k Isk a day, rather than 10-20% of my daily income as I am currently an active player. My concern is solely about safeguards. What would stop a CEO increasing the rate into millions of Isk shortly before the tax is deducted from your account. Or doing the something similar while you are away. I do not anyone to have direct access to what is in effect my savings account. The way around this and might have been what you were thinking for point 1 is that I play my games and at the appropriate moment I actively send the specified amount to the corp. This way the corp does not have access to my Isk account. The safeguards for the rest or more passive and reliant on the members of corp being able to monitor the financial activities of the corp in a report format generated by the computer system and not by players within the corp to ensure accuratacy and honesty. Sorry if I am misrepresenting your idea but I just wanted to share my concerns.