DUST Search - How to combat sp inequality (without resetting sp)

Buster Friently wrote:

slypie11 wrote:

Buster Friently wrote:

Believe it or not, SP will matter less and less as time goes on.

Let me try to explain why. If you've played Eve, you should already know why.

Dust's skill tree is set up for diversity. This means that there is only so many SP that can be devoted to a certain build. I'm going to call that 7mil SP for simplicity. This number is wrong, but it doesn't matter.

Here's the point: Once a player reaches this SP mark, they have one solid build, and must diversify into different roles to use their SP. This means that no one will need to "catch up" to the veterans, besides getting to this "baseline" amount of SP.

Because the game is new, few people have hit this "baseline" SP mark, and most people don't know how this SP system works. Once many people have hit the baseline, it doesn't matter how many SP you have, because you can only bring one build to the fight at a time, and the most SP that can be devoted to the build is this baseline - 7 mil SP for example.

So, new players will be ad a disadvantage, but only to the baseline SP. After that, it's simply a matter of how many different things you can do, not so much whether or not you'll be competitive. Because the baseline is still at the extreme edge of what's currently achievable since the SP wipe (Approx 2 months ago), people think that newbies will always be behind. While this is true in raw SP, the SP only matters until you get to the baseline so that you have at least one solid build.

True, but what the OP is saying is that it takes months, even years to get to the "baseline sp" currently, i'm at over 2 mil sp and it's not getting much higher.

It's going to take about 3 months, give or take. Everyone goes at basically the same pace - assuming you get your weekly cap. The boosters are there to speed this process up. This means that a new player can essentially reach "end game" (I hate that term BTW) in a matter of three months or so without dropping a penny on the game.

Seems fine to me.

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Aegis Scientiafide Planetary Response Organisation Test Friends Please Ignore 1	Posted - 2013.04.01 19:49:00 - [1] - Quote I think it's safe to say that as the game progresses the sp inequality between new players and vets will be problematic. The good news, however, is that after a certain point a specialized role simply cannot improve further sp-wise, since there's a finite number of skills. The way I see it, the main problem right now is that it simply takes way too long for a new player to max out a certain role. I did the math, and it'd take approximately 20 million sp to completely max out my character's effectiveness as an HMG heavy. For the new player, that'd take anywhere from 33 weeks (for someone constantly hitting the cap while using boosters) to 100 weeks (for someone who hardly plays at all). I'd say the average player would probably take a year to max out his character's effectiveness in a certain role. This will be a problem come 1 year down the road when new players are trying out the game. I'd imagine if most new players knew they'd have to wait anywhere from 8 months to 2 years to be on the same playing field as everyone else in an fps, most of them would quit. My solution consists of a couple parts: 1) Increase the initial amount of sp and isk with which new players start the game. I'd say 1 million in each respectively sounds about right. 2) An improved tutorial system to help ensure new players don't do anything stupid with their sp. 3) Add a new player sp bonus until a certain amount of sp is reached. This bonus would increase all active and passive sp gained by a certain amount (as well as the cap). Active and passive boosters will still be able to stack on top of this bonus. The good thing about the current sp system is that as skills are leveled, more sp is required for further levels (meaning the advantage gained per sp is diminished as a character improves); furthermore, there are clearly certain abilities that are much more helpful than others (extra ammo, for example, while good to have is not nearly as effective as extra damage or range). With this in mind, the new player bonus cap doesn't have to be as high as 20 million. The numbers would of course have to be looked into, but I'd say a 10 million cap for the newbie bonus sounds reasonable. At 10 million sp, I believe players who wisely spends their points wont have too much of a disadvantage compared to those who have spent the 20 million to maximize their abilities. I'd put the newbie bonus at around a 100% sp increase for both passive and active sp. This would allow newbies to reach the 10 million sp cap anywhere from 10 to 25 weeks (depending on activity and whether or not they used boosters). This system would allow new players to be competitive in their select roles without having to wait as long as an entire year, while still giving veterans an advantage and more options.
Banjo Hero BurgezzE.T.F Orion Empire 72	Posted - 2013.04.01 20:53:00 - [2] - Quote +1 for the better tutorials idea, if nothing else. #1 - I don't mind it, but you know there'll be some who will, and will probably insult you and your ancestry, just for floating the idea. #2 - I like this idea a whole lot. I haven't looked at the tutorials at all since first playing, but I'd be surprised if they've improved much, and they were not particularly useful in the first place. #3 - I'm pretty cool with this idea, too, but again, I expect there'll be some derision coming your way for it. Ten million SP as the cut-off point for this bonus might be a bit high, though.
CPL Bloodstone SVER True Blood Unclaimed. 43	Posted - 2013.04.01 21:02:00 - [3] - Quote +1 i had a rough time when i started playing Eve and the video's only helped slightly. Getting some really good information via video or presentations or just short and quick tutorials in general would be helpful. Well thought out and i applaud you. Still think a skill point refund (not reset) would help the newer players who didn't have the benefit of closed beta and spent the sp all over the place.
slypie11 Planetary Response Organisation Test Friends Please Ignore 88	Posted - 2013.04.01 23:04:00 - [4] - Quote +1. I, as a newbie who squandered his xp in various roles, has amassed about 2 mil total xp, and still feels behind many players how have hit the max in many important fields like their choice of weapon, dropsuit and armor or shields. would love an xp bonus till I get 10 mil. Would help a lot.
Morak Bel ZionTCD Legacy Rising 1	Posted - 2013.04.01 23:53:00 - [5] - Quote As a noob, i was one of the slaughtered until i figured out what needed to be done. Granted, i didnt watch any of the tutorials, nor did i recieve any help from CCP. What helped me the most was playing the game with others and talking to them about sp progression. You are probably right about new people not wanting to play because its difficult and demoralizing being cannon fodder, but i also think people NEED to take their lumps to figure out what they have to do with their chars to make sure ot doesnt continue to happen. More starting sp isnt the answer, playing and developing your skill set is. The harder you work to get something, the more gratifing it is when you reach that goal. If you make it easy for them, your just contributing to the instant gratification rather than allowing the community to teach them by letting us stomp em. All im sayin is i took my lumps, allow me to dish em out too lol
Buster Friently Rosen Association 244	Posted - 2013.04.01 23:55:00 - [6] - Quote Believe it or not, SP will matter less and less as time goes on. Let me try to explain why. If you've played Eve, you should already know why. Dust's skill tree is set up for diversity. This means that there is only so many SP that can be devoted to a certain build. I'm going to call that 7mil SP for simplicity. This number is wrong, but it doesn't matter. Here's the point: Once a player reaches this SP mark, they have one solid build, and must diversify into different roles to use their SP. This means that no one will need to "catch up" to the veterans, besides getting to this "baseline" amount of SP. Because the game is new, few people have hit this "baseline" SP mark, and most people don't know how this SP system works. Once many people have hit the baseline, it doesn't matter how many SP you have, because you can only bring one build to the fight at a time, and the most SP that can be devoted to the build is this baseline - 7 mil SP for example. So, new players will be ad a disadvantage, but only to the baseline SP. After that, it's simply a matter of how many different things you can do, not so much whether or not you'll be competitive. Because the baseline is still at the extreme edge of what's currently achievable since the SP wipe (Approx 2 months ago), people think that newbies will always be behind. While this is true in raw SP, the SP only matters until you get to the baseline so that you have at least one solid build.
slypie11 Planetary Response Organisation Test Friends Please Ignore 89	Posted - 2013.04.02 00:41:00 - [7] - Quote Buster Friently wrote: Believe it or not, SP will matter less and less as time goes on. Let me try to explain why. If you've played Eve, you should already know why. Dust's skill tree is set up for diversity. This means that there is only so many SP that can be devoted to a certain build. I'm going to call that 7mil SP for simplicity. This number is wrong, but it doesn't matter. Here's the point: Once a player reaches this SP mark, they have one solid build, and must diversify into different roles to use their SP. This means that no one will need to "catch up" to the veterans, besides getting to this "baseline" amount of SP. Because the game is new, few people have hit this "baseline" SP mark, and most people don't know how this SP system works. Once many people have hit the baseline, it doesn't matter how many SP you have, because you can only bring one build to the fight at a time, and the most SP that can be devoted to the build is this baseline - 7 mil SP for example. So, new players will be ad a disadvantage, but only to the baseline SP. After that, it's simply a matter of how many different things you can do, not so much whether or not you'll be competitive. Because the baseline is still at the extreme edge of what's currently achievable since the SP wipe (Approx 2 months ago), people think that newbies will always be behind. While this is true in raw SP, the SP only matters until you get to the baseline so that you have at least one solid build. True, but what the OP is saying is that it takes months, even years to get to the "baseline sp" currently, i'm at over 2 mil sp and it's not getting much higher.
Ulysses Knapse Nuevo Atlas Corporation 165	Posted - 2013.04.02 00:58:00 - [8] - Quote There is no need for all these fancy solutions. All we need is more things to do. We need null-sec warfare for veterans, high-sec warfare for noobs and factional warfare for everyone in between. That will balance the game quite nicely.
Buster Friently Rosen Association 244	Posted - 2013.04.02 01:06:00 - [9] - Quote slypie11 wrote: Buster Friently wrote: Believe it or not, SP will matter less and less as time goes on. Let me try to explain why. If you've played Eve, you should already know why. Dust's skill tree is set up for diversity. This means that there is only so many SP that can be devoted to a certain build. I'm going to call that 7mil SP for simplicity. This number is wrong, but it doesn't matter. Here's the point: Once a player reaches this SP mark, they have one solid build, and must diversify into different roles to use their SP. This means that no one will need to "catch up" to the veterans, besides getting to this "baseline" amount of SP. Because the game is new, few people have hit this "baseline" SP mark, and most people don't know how this SP system works. Once many people have hit the baseline, it doesn't matter how many SP you have, because you can only bring one build to the fight at a time, and the most SP that can be devoted to the build is this baseline - 7 mil SP for example. So, new players will be ad a disadvantage, but only to the baseline SP. After that, it's simply a matter of how many different things you can do, not so much whether or not you'll be competitive. Because the baseline is still at the extreme edge of what's currently achievable since the SP wipe (Approx 2 months ago), people think that newbies will always be behind. While this is true in raw SP, the SP only matters until you get to the baseline so that you have at least one solid build. True, but what the OP is saying is that it takes months, even years to get to the "baseline sp" currently, i'm at over 2 mil sp and it's not getting much higher. It's going to take about 3 months, give or take. Everyone goes at basically the same pace - assuming you get your weekly cap. The boosters are there to speed this process up. This means that a new player can essentially reach "end game" (I hate that term BTW) in a matter of three months or so without dropping a penny on the game. Seems fine to me.
Aegis Scientiafide Planetary Response Organisation 13	Posted - 2013.05.07 00:05:00 - [10] - Quote Upon hearing of the new uprising build that was coming out, I figured I'd let this go until I saw how CCP handled their skill tree. Upon seeing that there are now more skills per role, with higher overall sp costs to maximize these roles, and (worst of all) a higher sp level required to successfully play certain roles (like logis), I feel this suggestion is more important than ever (although certain figures may be outdated, the overall principles I feel are still true).

slypie11 Planetary Response Organisation 267	Posted - 2013.05.07 00:16:00 - [11] - Quote Buster Friently wrote: slypie11 wrote: Buster Friently wrote: Believe it or not, SP will matter less and less as time goes on. Let me try to explain why. If you've played Eve, you should already know why. Dust's skill tree is set up for diversity. This means that there is only so many SP that can be devoted to a certain build. I'm going to call that 7mil SP for simplicity. This number is wrong, but it doesn't matter. Here's the point: Once a player reaches this SP mark, they have one solid build, and must diversify into different roles to use their SP. This means that no one will need to "catch up" to the veterans, besides getting to this "baseline" amount of SP. Because the game is new, few people have hit this "baseline" SP mark, and most people don't know how this SP system works. Once many people have hit the baseline, it doesn't matter how many SP you have, because you can only bring one build to the fight at a time, and the most SP that can be devoted to the build is this baseline - 7 mil SP for example. So, new players will be ad a disadvantage, but only to the baseline SP. After that, it's simply a matter of how many different things you can do, not so much whether or not you'll be competitive. Because the baseline is still at the extreme edge of what's currently achievable since the SP wipe (Approx 2 months ago), people think that newbies will always be behind. While this is true in raw SP, the SP only matters until you get to the baseline so that you have at least one solid build. True, but what the OP is saying is that it takes months, even years to get to the "baseline sp" currently, i'm at over 2 mil sp and it's not getting much higher. It's going to take about 3 months, give or take. Everyone goes at basically the same pace - assuming you get your weekly cap. The boosters are there to speed this process up. This means that a new player can essentially reach "end game" (I hate that term BTW) in a matter of three months or so without dropping a penny on the game. Seems fine to me. Unfortunately, I can't play very often, so I do not hit cap at all.
Master Jaraiya Ultramarine Corp Orion Empire 8	Posted - 2013.05.07 01:08:00 - [12] - Quote I have a pretty good (i think) idea as well. Instead of just handing the noobs their sp give them a more competitive way to earn it: Create tier based pub matches that any one player cannot enter if he/she does not fall into the required SP range, and also keep open pub matches that anyone can join regardless of SP for those who wish to be cannon fodder.


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