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Dust is pointless to play if you fall behind the curve

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Laheon Osmon Surveillance Caldari State 328	Posted - 2013.03.31 23:31:00 - [1] - Quote Not true... I started again a couple of weeks ago after taking a break for 7 months. I'd effectively not played since the middle of closed beta. I came back, and true, I went 46/70 in my first few games, but after that I came back and I'm currently hovering at about 1.1 KDR. Around that, anyway, I'm not near my PS3 so I can't check the stats. So having gone away for 6 months (not having played any shooter whatsoever), coming back to the game with only 500k SP, with my favourite character starting off in the wrong profession (arbiter instead of enforcer) I still, within a week, started going positive on every game. I usually get over 1.5k WP on skirmish, normally above 600 on ambush, and that's with 1.1m SP. It's not particularly SP that counts; it helps, true, but it's not everything. Situational awareness and teamwork are much better at determining how well you do. If you want to lone wolf it, then fine, be prepared to have a bad kdr and be ready to QQ. But don't make it simply about SP - higher SP simply gives you an advantage, not an "I win" button.
Laheon Osmon Surveillance Caldari State 328	Posted - 2013.03.31 23:32:00 - [2] - Quote Oh, and I got one of my friends into the game the other day. His first ambush he went 3/4, against guys with lasers, GEKs, snipers, etc. Got something like 275 WP just using his AR, didn't know anything about the map, either.
Laheon Osmon Surveillance Caldari State 328	Posted - 2013.03.31 23:59:00 - [3] - Quote Yani, that's very true, but at the same time, you're considering yourself as a player with growing SP. As you get more SP, yes, you become both more skilled at the game and also with inherent advantages. But a person who has played CoD (and, for argument's sake, EVE) for the last five years will grasp both the skill system and the shooting mechanics much more quickly than someone who's been playing Truck Simulator 2010 for the last three years. Assuming SP is equal, I'd put all my money on the first guy to win for the first ten games, and then for the playing field to level out (assuming that they gain equal SP per match). If you throw someone new to the game in a protosuit with officer weapons, and throw him against, say, Regnum in a militia suit, I'd put my money on Regnum. Actually, against any of the better players.
Laheon Osmon Surveillance Caldari State 328	Posted - 2013.04.01 00:20:00 - [4] - Quote Phoenix Archer 128 wrote: Remember what happened in those game-show Merc Battles, where people on the floor trying out Dust had Prot-gear and we had maybe Advanced? Remember how they couldn't do anything against people who've been playing Dust for a while? I didn't see that, I was possibly incapacitated due to my lack of internet at the time. Thanks for proving my point though.
Laheon Osmon Surveillance Caldari State 328	Posted - 2013.04.01 00:30:00 - [5] - Quote Rifter7 wrote: a removal of active skillpoints No. Just no. Yes to the PvE, no to allowing newberries catch up to the vets' SP levels by not playing the game (as in the PvP side of it). If you farm from PvE, all you do is gain SP without any idea where to put it to good use. As mentioned before by several people in the thread, SP is not particularly the problem. The skill level of the players themselves is generally a reason for concern.
Laheon Osmon Surveillance Caldari State 328	Posted - 2013.04.01 00:35:00 - [6] - Quote Rifter7 wrote: i'm not stating that it should be removed. i'm saying it's something that should be thought about... mostly for the players that don't play as much. please don't decide my stance on something by selectively quoting what i said haha. There should be no thoughts about removal of active SP. Why? It discourages people from playing the game. "Why should I play now when I can come back in a year with 6m more SP and be able to jump into much better gear than I can now?" There is already a soft cap on SP per week, in order to make sure those who aren't as active don't fall too far behind. Don't punish those players who do play a lot, versus those who don't, simply because they're more dedicated (or have more free time) than those who aren't as active.
Laheon Osmon Surveillance Caldari State 330	Posted - 2013.04.01 01:00:00 - [7] - Quote steadyhand amarr wrote: that soft caps ensures the vets will always stay ahead as if i miss a week gaming or a few days beucase of the Cap i know no matter what i do i will never catch up, thus once your ahead you stay ahead this is why you see AFK farming so much. the skill system needs be done on EvE time system. the current method does not work in shooter Stay ahead in SP, yes. As stated before, SP does not matter as much as skill level, situational awareness and teamwork do. As stated before, newberries in protosuits will lose to vets in militia suits (well, they lost when the vets were in adv gear). Knowing when to jump out of cover, when to charge the enemy, when to move position, is vital in this game. If you move out of position with a tank aiming at you, then you're dead. If you charge the enemy when they have a heavy/logi combo, or a logi with an MD, then you're dead. If you run up against five guys and you're on your own, chances are you're dead. If you can get to a high elevation with a militia AR and shoot at someone from above, there'll be a very high probability that that person will die, even if they're in a proto suit. If you run away from a scout using a shotgun, then chances are you'll survive, instead of going hunting for it. Likewise, don't run towards someone with nova knives. Knowing when to engage and when not to is essential in this game. SP only confers advantages to those with higher (or better invested) SP. It doesn't grant an "I win" button. As I've said before.
Laheon Osmon Surveillance Caldari State 336	Posted - 2013.04.01 06:25:00 - [8] - Quote Moonracer2000 wrote: Regardless of if it is true or just a scapegoat, it is a perceived imbalance in the game. If players feel like they can't compete primarily because they haven't hit cap every week since open beta started, they may give up on the game and leave. That is not a good thing. This is a valid point. Unfortunately, the only solution for this is for newberries to get good. We can't give them a mechanic for improved SP so they can catch up to the vets - chances are they'll just waste it, thinking they'll keep getting it at an advanced rate, and spend it in any skills they fancy at that time. We have to give them a chance to learn the game mechanics, and they can also be given a learning course (DUST University's a great idea - maybe have a pop-up when you first create a character, informing you about it?) . Militia fits are able to hold their own, anything above just confers an increasing advantage. For example, a complex shield extender only gives you an extra two shots worth of damage from a militia AR.
Laheon Osmon Surveillance Caldari State 336	Posted - 2013.04.01 06:55:00 - [9] - Quote Blue, your TLDR was longer than the bit it was summarising. I say keep the system as is. If newberries can have a guiding hand, the learning process will be that much quicker, and they'll have an incentive to keep playing, too. After ten games they'll start being able to handle themselves well, rather than just get stomped.
Laheon Osmon Surveillance Caldari State 339	Posted - 2013.04.01 08:37:00 - [10] - Quote Michael Arck wrote: I encourage some folks, if time is available, to head to the ign community to help the Dust 514 thread. I'll go take a look.

Laheon Osmon Surveillance Caldari State 340	Posted - 2013.04.01 10:15:00 - [11] - Quote I'm all for an SP respec (note: NOT a reset), but it would have to be a one-off rather than do-it-whenever-you-want. I've suggested one respec after a month of playing. This at least gives you some idea of what kind of role you want to do, what skills are the best for survivability, etc.
Laheon Osmon Surveillance Caldari State 340	Posted - 2013.04.01 10:28:00 - [12] - Quote Takahiro - sec status really doesn't help. As stated before in this thread, SP isn't the great leveller - actual skill levels are. If you have lightning fast reflexes, and precision aiming, you're going to do much better than someone who's been playing nothing but strategy games for the last five years, assuming equal SP. The game is more about teamwork and situational awareness than proper fighting ability - an assault dropsuit can be dropped in as little as half a second by another assault. If you're caught with your pants down, no matter how good you are, chances are you're dead.
Laheon Osmon Surveillance Caldari State 341	Posted - 2013.04.01 10:38:00 - [13] - Quote Soozu wrote: Ok ok, some people can figure it out, we all know that, all of us did right? I have only been arguing the point that this game is missing the real tutorials that all games have now. Not the reading kind, the hands on move your guy shoot at things this is how this works walkthrough that everybody has become accustomed to. Without it, we're losing people as the SP gap grows and the problem compounds. Again, for the last kittening time, the SP gap is not a problem. The problem is the skill levels of the players themselves. You can very well hold your own in a militia fit. A friend I introduced to the game a couple days ago went 3/4 in his first ambush, with 4 assists. And you really don't need a tutorial for "this is how to aim. This is how to move. This is how to shoot, this is how to ADS." Those are controls people will test out at their earliest convenience. Not to mention that the controls are shown in the loading screens anyway. A couple of games and you get used to it.
Laheon Osmon Surveillance Caldari State 343	Posted - 2013.04.01 10:57:00 - [14] - Quote Protobear is easily killed by Militiabear. I've seen it and done it before, all you need is a basic grasp of tactics. If you run straight into a guy with superior firepower, you're going to die. If you ambush him or shoot at him from an elevation, you're almost certainly negating most of his advantage. Again. Witnessed and experienced. I've killed adv in militia gear simply because they haven't seen me. Gotten damn close with a proto face-to-face, too.
Laheon Osmon Surveillance Caldari State 351	Posted - 2013.04.02 10:46:00 - [15] - Quote Alina Heart wrote: You cannot simply come to a conclusion on this topic based on your own skill level and success, not everybody is as good as you nor do people play the game as often. Fact is, no NEW casual player can pick up this game and have even a small remote sense of fun because of the matchmaking. My point is that game mechanics can't be changed to make things "fun" for those who simply can't aim and shoot. In the end, this IS an MMOFPS, and part of the basic gameplay is to aim and shoot, and if you can't manage that, you're going to struggle, no matter what gear you're in. As stated before IN THIS THREAD, SP is not the great leveller. It lets good players stomp and bad players dominate players in worse gear, but proto gear is not the huge advantage everyone seems to be making out it is. If you look at pure stats, the Duvolle only gives something like 1.3k damage per minute over the GEK - or something like 3 damage per shot. It's a small advantage, but a GEK user can still kill a Duvolle user. If a player comes to this game and he's good at shooters, then he'll flourish. If he comes to this game and he's never played a shooter in his life, of course he's going to struggle. But that's not the game's fault, that's because his own personal skill level isn't up to par, and that is neither CCP's or anyone else's fault, and giving him all the SP in the world will not fix that, because the experience simply isn't there.
Laheon Osmon Surveillance Caldari State 352	Posted - 2013.04.02 13:36:00 - [16] - Quote Django Quik wrote: Once you hit a few million, the differences are negligible. I've not even hit 5 million SP total yet and it's rare for me to not be top 5 on the scoreboards. I'm on 1.2 and it's rare that I'm not in the top 5, and I lone wolf it most of the time...
Laheon Osmon Surveillance Caldari State 354	Posted - 2013.04.02 14:14:00 - [17] - Quote I think giving free bacon to new players would work. Free bacon to anyone under 2mil SP. Yum.
Laheon Osmon Surveillance Caldari State 370	Posted - 2013.04.02 16:55:00 - [18] - Quote Surt, I got your point, but the point is being made that newberries, or people with low SP, are struggling to do well against those with high SP. As contrary examples, a few of us have pointed out that we have under 1mil SP (or around 1mil SP) and do well against those with higher SP. Nowhere have we said that we consider ourselves "skilled" players. I, for one, know that I have a lot of room for improvement. The point is that if a player is bad at an FPS, they'll do badly, regardless of their SP. If they can point and shoot, or support, or whatever, they'll do well. The point is that SP doesn't make a bad player good. A bad player is bad no matter what equipment he uses. A lot of people simply don't think when they play the game, so lose time and time again. A good player does otherwise.

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