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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 26 post(s) |
Bendtner92
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Posted - 2013.03.28 22:00:00 -
[1] - Quote
0 Try Harder wrote:CCP FoxFour wrote:Defender has 300 clones and a production facility (PF generates 100 clones a day). Attacker attacks. Attacker wins. Attacker has 100 clones at the end of the battle. Defender does not get 100 clones on their next reinforcement cycle. Attacker gets 50% of the clones that would have been generated. Attacker returns home with a total of 150 clones. Does the defender lose all 300 clones in battle automatically? What if he loses a certain number, but there are some remaining? If the defender loses 300 the attackers get the district, and don't "steal" any clones.
If the defender loses less than 300 (150 minimum) the defender keeps the district, and the attacker "steals" in this case 50 clones. |
Bendtner92
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456
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Posted - 2013.03.29 08:43:00 -
[2] - Quote
5Y5T3M 3RR0R wrote:This is a terrible idea!!
This system so far gives a massive advantage to the attacker and also encourages them to attack with the minimum number of clones because then they know their enemy won't get anything! This will also get worse in long distance combats and ill give you an example why:
As a winner I'm always going to lose 150 clones, be it from transport, deaths, or minimum kills. If I send more all I can possibly achieve by sending more is to potentially loose more clones and help my enemy reinforce their district against my next attack.
If I win I get to keep my clones, take some of theirs and only lose those dead in battle or transport. So why not aim over close zones and hit those further away instead of close by as I probably won't lose based on clone count and even if I do, I don't want to leave anything behind for my enemy.
My piece of advice would be is:
Start in these examples by telling us the game effect you are trying to achieve and I'm sure players will help you tweak your ideas in ways that will help you achieve them instead of just tearing apart your hard work. If you only attack with 150 clones and the defender has 300 for example there's a good chance you'll lose on clone count even though you might be leading in MCC health.
If you instead attack with 200 clones you're less likely to lose all of your clones before you win the match by destroying the enemy MCC.
If you know you can win any match by sending not more than 150 clones every time then so be it. This new system won't change that. Sending more than 150 clones is to ensure you have enough time to take out the enemy MCC.
Edit: Some examples: If you know you lose every match (being a zerg corp for example), then you probably won't send more than 150 clones no matter what the system is. If you know you can win every match with no more than 150 clones, then you probably won't send more than 150 clones no matter what the system is. If you want to make sure you have enough time to take out the enemy MCC, you'll probably send more than 150 clones in some cases. |
Bendtner92
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456
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Posted - 2013.03.29 09:16:00 -
[3] - Quote
5Y5T3M 3RR0R wrote:Check how many clones the average skirmish map has right now, 150. Then count the number of times you remember losing a skirmish due to clone count. My bet its lot less often and very rarely is it when your winning the battle.
The only time I've ever seen a skirmish won by clone count when losing on MCC was when they had redlined the other corp but got redline sniped to zero because moronic blue dots kept zerging the redline and sniped.
To be honest a lot of the Skirmish matches I've played have ended with clone depletion. Add to that that PC will be matches where both sides will probably push even more than what randoms do in pub matches = more kills.
Also there will be OB's raining down from 3 squads on each team and not just mostly 1 squad in pub matches = more kills.
Overall I can see teams losing 150+ clones in a lot of PC matches. |
Bendtner92
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459
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Posted - 2013.03.31 10:25:00 -
[4] - Quote
Parson.
You're assuming the attacker's home district won't be attacked at the same time. If there are really good incentives for attacking they most likely will be under attack themself. Therefore even when winning they'll suffer greater clone loss than what you showed in your examples.
Also when the attacker loses he doesn't get the 25 leftover clones that weren't killed (if he brought 200 and 150 were killed), which again means greater clone loss than in your examples.
I really like these changes. There needs to be major incentives to attacking to prevent a major blue donut all over PC. |
Bendtner92
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459
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Posted - 2013.03.31 14:43:00 -
[5] - Quote
Parson Atreides wrote:You're right, I forgot to include the additional 25 stolen, I'll go back to change it, but it isn't going to affect the overriding point. That's not what I meant though (and therefore your examples are still slightly wrong ).
If the attacker attacks with 200 clones and loses, he loses all those 200 clones no matter how many were killed. If only 150 were killed, 25 of the remaining 50 clones go to the defender while the other 25 clones get destroyed with no ISK going to anyone.
Quote:These incentives should come in the form of planetary bonuses or unique district bonuses (maybe for number held or number held in a system or on a planet) and not at the cost of further placing defenders at a disadvantage. Wouldn't that not just lead to a big blue donut? |
Bendtner92
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459
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Posted - 2013.03.31 15:35:00 -
[6] - Quote
Parson Atreides wrote:So all clones the attacker sends die regardless of how many you lose in the battle and how many you send? That makes it seem like "minimum clone loss" only ever applies to defenders (and calculations for clones stolen), since it's impossible to send less than 150 as an attacker anyway. I was under the impression the remaining get sent back to the attacking district.
This line from the wiki makes me think you're wrong "The losing side of a battle will lose a minimum of 100 clones. If they lose 125 during the fight that is what they lose. If they lose 75 during the fight then they will lose a total of 100 at the end." If attackers had all clones destroyed (whether or not they die in battle) when they lose but could only send a minimum of 100 anyway, then it should just read "The defending side loses a minimum of 100 clones if they lose" since it's already understood that the attackers lose everything. If the attacker loses the match he loses how many clones he brought.
Quote: "20% given to defender, rest destroyed" if the attacker loses. Note this is the old numbers, as it would be 50% given to the defender.
The line you quoted is mostly related to the defender, but it's also related to the attacker in the way that if the attacker brought 100 clones and only 75 were killed he would lose 100 regardless. If he brought 125 and all of them were killed, all of them would be lost. |
Bendtner92
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459
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Posted - 2013.03.31 16:01:00 -
[7] - Quote
Parson Atreides wrote:The minimum clone loss could be 1 and the attacker would still lose all the clones he brought though (according to the way you're reading it), so it doesn't make any sense to apply "minimum clone loss" to the attacker numbers (other than for stealing clones) when all clones they bring die anyway after a loss. It's not the way I read it, it's the way it is. I've read the wiki several times now and have seen most, if not all, of FoxFour's answers to PC, so I should know how the current mechanics would work.
It does make sense to apply it to the attacker. If the attacker brings 200 clones, loses the match and only loses 100 clones in the battle, 50 of the remaining clones would be downright lost (with biomass given to the defender), 25 given to the defender and the last 25 destroyed (with no ISK given to the defender).
If it wasn't applied to the attacker it would imply that 50 of the remaining clones would be given to the defender and the other 50 destroyed.
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Bendtner92
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461
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Posted - 2013.04.03 12:30:00 -
[8] - Quote
Mavado V Noriega wrote:I like the fact that CCP wants ppl to attack that is all well an good but one of my main concerns for PC is what happens when u say u reach the "limit" of ur ability to HOLD districts?
It would be nice if there was some sort of raiding mechanic that way u still attack and get paid for it but u wont be tied down with having to own another district u might not honestly want
Not everyone is interested or can hold vast amounts of space, some just want a small piece they can manage and just go raiding or doin merc work Yep I agree that some form of raiding would be good to have.
Short term though there is a possibility to do some sort of low-end raiding. If you attack someone and win you're guaranteed 15 million in biomass and at least another 15 million in loot if the other team loses 150 clones and are in full proto gear. That's almost 2 million to each person. Unless you use up all of your own clones (9-10 clones each person) it could be a nice little profit for you. Do note that unless we get some kind of trading most of the loot could be useless to you.
Long term though it would be nice with some actual raiding mechanics, yes.
I also asked this in another thread, but I recieved no answer, so I'll try here instead. Do we get regular ISK payouts in PC matches as well? Because if everyone is in full proto gear you can easily get 1 million+ ISK for a match, which would give an even bigger profit than what I outlined above. |
Bendtner92
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461
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Posted - 2013.04.03 13:36:00 -
[9] - Quote
CCP FoxFour wrote:Bendtner92 wrote:I also asked this in another thread, but I recieved no answer, so I'll try here instead. Do we get regular ISK payouts in PC matches as well? Because if everyone is in full proto gear you can easily get 1 million+ ISK for a match, which would give an even bigger profit than what I outlined above. The regular ISK payout will be based on the number of clones killed. Cool, so I assume you could actually make a decent profit by attacking and winning since you would be getting regular ISK payouts that can easily exceed 1 million ISK per player if the other team is in full proto + at least 15 million in biomass + at least 15 million in loot if the other team is in full proto and loses 150+ clones. That is 3 million+ ISK to each player.
Though, the loot would probably be useless for the most part until trading is implemented, but it would still be at least 2 million ISK to each player minus whatever they lost in the match, but that shouldn't be more than 1-1,5 million ISK at most. Vehicle pilots would lose more, but they can get ISK from the corp to reimburse their losses. |
Bendtner92
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462
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Posted - 2013.04.04 18:28:00 -
[10] - Quote
Kain Spero wrote:This is incorrect. The only ISK you get is from the clones being biomassed. I don't think so.
See https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=667036#post667036 |
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