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Laheon
Osmon Surveillance
Caldari State
301
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Posted - 2013.03.28 14:29:00 -
[1] - Quote
...Really? Damage reduction is the best way to go? Even though a heavy has the highest amount of EHP in the game? Heavy =/= auto win button.
I can agree that heavies scale badly, but at the same time, introducing damage resistance isn't the way to go. There are other, much better ways to balance heavies.
Edit: There are already armor and shield resists - each weapon does a different amount of damage to shield than to armor. The proposal means a blanket x% decrease of damage to the heavy across the board. It doesn't fit in lore-wise, and it would wreck the balance of the game. It would mean a return of the game to the era when heavies with ARs dominated the game. |
Laheon
Osmon Surveillance
Caldari State
301
|
Posted - 2013.03.28 14:33:00 -
[2] - Quote
Turning buff, slight speed buff, smaller hitbox, a buff to the armor plating modules, a buff to armor at the higher tiers... Anything but a damage reduction. Too much room for abuse. |
Laheon
Osmon Surveillance
Caldari State
301
|
Posted - 2013.03.28 14:46:00 -
[3] - Quote
Numbers: Heavy vk.0 has 650 armor and 100 shield. That gives it a total of 750 hp. I'm not going to go into EHP here, since ARs do more damage to shield than armor, etc.
A damage reduction of 35%.. Actually, let's do 20%. That would give a proto heavy a BASE hp of 900. Let's add armor plates on top of that. Complex armor plates, let's fit two of those. 115hp each, which gives 230hp. Take 20% damage reduction, that comes to a total of 276hp added on TOP of the 900, giving a total hp of 1176hp.
A Duvolle can dish out 47.45 damage per shot with AR Prof V, weap V and a complex damage mod. That would cause resultant heavy to die in just under 2 seconds, not including inherent damage effectiveness against shield/armor. It would be higher, as ARs do 90% to armor.
A heavy with a single complex damage mod would do, with a Boundless HMG, would kill (assuming the assault had about 700hp, complete overestimation) the assault in 0.86 seconds, not including the damage effectiveness. Assuming all bullets hit. Even if just 50% hit, you still kill a proto AR user in less time that it takes for him to kill you. |
Laheon
Osmon Surveillance
Caldari State
301
|
Posted - 2013.03.28 14:56:00 -
[4] - Quote
Let's put it in perspective. I've seen assaults go 0/7. I've seen snipers go 1/4. I've seen logis go 0/5 (to be expected, but their WP was low, too), and I've seen heavies go 3/8. I've also seen assaults go 30/1, snipers go 30/0, logis go 10/2 (and loads of WP), and heavies go 20/2.
I've run into a heavy, as an AR user, and they've gunned me down in seconds, from medium range. As a heavy, I've walked around a corner into two assaults and killed them both before they could get me into half armor.
Heavies may need a buff, but damage reduction isn't the way to go. The best way to buff a heavy is to *learn how to play with one*. Walking head-first into enemy fire generally isn't the best idea. You're not a walking fortress, you're a mobile machine gun nest/anti-tank cannon. |
Laheon
Osmon Surveillance
Caldari State
301
|
Posted - 2013.03.28 14:58:00 -
[5] - Quote
Coleman Gray wrote:Your right, A heavy having the advantage one vs one is totally unfair 
Even without the damage reduction, you still kill the assault in less time than he takes to kill you. 2 / 1.35 = 1.48 seconds. You still kill the assault 1.7 times faster than he takes to kill you. |
Laheon
Osmon Surveillance
Caldari State
301
|
Posted - 2013.03.28 15:04:00 -
[6] - Quote
shellhead wrote:Isn't that how it should be considering the Heavies only job is killing things?
There's a heavy in TF2, so the comparison is kind of easy to make. A heavy is best used (with a medic, yes, sure, and invulnerable, walking forward, but if alone...) when trying to hold a position. You let the enemy come to you, rather than you going to the enemy. It means they have less time to react, instead of the other way around, and you can dictate the terms of placement. Just like a machine gun nest. A heavy isn't a mobile heavy weapons platform, it's not a HAV. It isn't supposed to tank god-like levels of damage. One role it SHOULD be used for is suppression, and it works. If I see a heavy firing its HMG in my general direction, I run for cover. |
Laheon
Osmon Surveillance
Caldari State
301
|
Posted - 2013.03.28 15:06:00 -
[7] - Quote
Coleman Gray wrote:If their only using projectile weapons yes, explosive damage and lasers would stil chew through them
Lost all credibility. That's an auto "I WIN" button. Teams would consist entirely of heavies, seeing as the only thing capable of taking on a heavy would be another heavy. 16 x heavies > 16 x assaults in your world. Sorry.
Edit: Currently the only things requiring a squad to kill are HAV's (well, the better fit ones, anyway), some of the heavier-tanked dropships, and another squad. One person needing a squad or specialised weapons to take down is ridiculous. |
Laheon
Osmon Surveillance
Caldari State
301
|
Posted - 2013.03.28 15:13:00 -
[8] - Quote
shellhead wrote:
Then whats the point of using a heavy at all? I can do all those things with just a assault rifle or a sniper rifle from a distance.
Nothing breaks up or distracts a well organized firing line like dropping two of their buddies from afar heh.
One, nothing breaks up a firing line quite like a well-placed MD round. Never used one, but have witnessed its effects.
Two. A sniper has a set FOV. A heavy can be mobile, and set up position around corners to provide suppressing fire when needed, unlike snipers, who need a clear FOV, unblocked by obstacles. If there's an obstacle in the heavy's way, he just walks around it.
Imagine being an assault (or even another heavy) and running past an enemy heavy parked around the corner. You die very quickly, without even knowing what was happening.
Scouts are the infiltrate-and-kill unit. Assault are the backbone of the army, as they can go in, kill, and hold an area. Heavy is the area consolidation. Logis are the local support. Command suits (when they come in) will be overall support. Pilots... Well, they're self-explanatory.
There are certain roles to be filled, and not every "class" can just kill indiscriminately. |
Laheon
Osmon Surveillance
Caldari State
301
|
Posted - 2013.03.28 15:17:00 -
[9] - Quote
shellhead wrote:Too bad heavies don't get war points for suppressive fire.
Too bad that accumulating WP doesn't help your team to win.
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Laheon
Osmon Surveillance
Caldari State
301
|
Posted - 2013.03.28 15:23:00 -
[10] - Quote
shellhead wrote:
So then I guess logis should lose their war points for healing team mates then?
We need isk to buy our suits and if you don't want to see the suit buffed it should at least reward playing the roll better.
Logi WPs actually help the team to win. They provide ammo, they provide a place to spawn closer to the objectives, they provide healing to damaged units who can then run back into the fight at full health... But just killing someone doesn't particularly help win the game. I've been on the winning team when we've had 10 tickets to the enemy's 50. As an assault, I've hung back at D when the rest of my team were assaulting A, and fended off three enemies trying to cap the point. We then capped A, I died, but they didn't manage to cap D because some of my team arrived in time.
It's not all about WPs, it's not all about isk, it's not all about SP. It's about helping the team win. Frankly, I couldn't care if I died, just as long as I helped the team win. That's why I die so often - I run into situations alone, trying to salvage something from a situation my pub team completely ignored. |
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Laheon
Osmon Surveillance
Caldari State
302
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Posted - 2013.03.28 15:30:00 -
[11] - Quote
Lance, I explained it in a post above. Area consolidation. You send in the light troops first, then you send in the heavy troops to secure. Sort of like in, you know, real war - you don't send in the heavy armor first. You send in the troops to scout out and clear. Any area where a heavy is stationary is a defensible position. If a machine gun starts shooting at you (especially with 400 rounds in the mag) you take cover. |
Laheon
Osmon Surveillance
Caldari State
302
|
Posted - 2013.03.28 15:43:00 -
[12] - Quote
Coleman Gray wrote:In a real war there is no "heavy armor" troops, since weapons are at the point that heavy armor is pointless, hence why battleships are made of fibre glass, and most tanks can have their turrets pry'd off with a trenching tool.
Heavy infantry can be any infantry with a heavy machine gun. A LMG is easy enough to cart around, but doesn't provide the same oomph as a HMG, which is a heavily defensive tool. You don't take a HMG into battle, you set it up and let the enemy come to you. See WW1, see the Maginot Line, see D-Day, see pretty much any attrition warfare, and you'll see what I mean.
And you're completely wrong about the armor. Look up the Challenger 2 tank, and look up incidents. Only something like two or three have been destroyed, and one was friendly fire.
But the point is that heavies are best suited to area consolidation and suppression of the enemy. You're slow for a reason - you're not meant to charge an enemy defensive line.
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Laheon
Osmon Surveillance
Caldari State
302
|
Posted - 2013.03.28 15:46:00 -
[13] - Quote
Not true. I get killed by heavies (whilst I'm shooting at them with my AR) at medium range. I get them into about 3/4 armor before I die. |
Laheon
Osmon Surveillance
Caldari State
302
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Posted - 2013.03.28 15:57:00 -
[14] - Quote
Gelan Corbaine wrote:[Stop aiming for the body standing still then ....... aim for the head and DOOOOOOOOOOOOOOGGGGGGGEEEE !!!!
I do :( Sometimes I even sprint for cover. |
Laheon
Osmon Surveillance
Caldari State
319
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Posted - 2013.03.29 20:17:00 -
[15] - Quote
Coleman Gray wrote:bump because I can :D
Technically bumping is against the forum rules... Jus' saying :)
14. Bumping outside the Corporation Recruitment channel is prohibited.
The bumping of posts to alter the order of the thread listing on a forum is prohibited outside the Corporation Recruitment forum channel. The Corporation Recruitment channel also has its own rules. Please review the sticky threads in this forum channel for specific details. |
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