DUST Search - Marketplace 2.0: Blueprints vs. Copies

Buster Friently wrote:

Beren Hurin wrote:

Klivve Cussler wrote:

Quote:

To reiterate, there would be NO manufacturing time. If you had the materials and the blueprints you could make a 'copy package' instantaneously. However, it would take time to research your BPO to the point where you could make a profit selling your copies for cheaper than NPCs.

Why not? I mean, I don't think it should be a long time, especially for simple items, but NO time? That seems off.

Please read carefully. Your lead time would come from resynching/researching the BPO. They would be unusable during this process. This mechanic would throttle how many things everyone could manufacture on a daily basis.

So if each BPO could have a max of 100 runs before they degraded back to an unusable efficiency then you'd set them all to research right before you log off. Then when you get back in, you could make 100 runs of each item from the BPO but any additional you'd want to make would be cost prohibative, so you'd start the research over.

Over time it would be the same effect. In my scheme the waiting time is done by the producer not the purchaser. Either way it prevents the market from balooning with goods because there is no time to produce at all.

Expect CCP to implement an exact copy of Eve's system, or a simplification of it. I doubt research will be a part of it for a long time, maybe never.


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Beren Hurin OMNI Endeavors 304	Posted - 2013.03.27 16:35:00 - [1] - Quote So in the game there are two types of equipment, blueprints and copies. With the blueprints you can get unlimited uses of this equipment and with the copies, you use it until the equipment is destroyed. Especially with the giveaways in April, with what sounds like a tidal wave of blueprints coming on the market, it is making me wonder about how blueprints will be used in the future as opposed to copies. Here are my thoughts... Both blueprints and copies can be seen technically as licenses to use the prescribed technology. With a copy (as with Eve) you know ahead of time how much material is used for the given equipment. The efficiency of the manufacturing instructions is a part of the copy. With a blueprint, you are getting just the unlimited basic manufacturing instructions. In Eve blueprints can be improved into copies that are more efficient that the blueprint when it comes to materials, but are nonetheless limited. I'm guessing that when we get a Marketplace 2.0, blueprints will become licenses for 'free' equipment in public/FW matches where most of the raw materials for battle are provided for you. Copies will be like limited use licenses with the physical material already factored into the license. So in a way, using copies in public matches means you are paying significantly more for special equipment that you could get for free. You are being 'taxed' for fighting with upgraded gear. Conversely, corporation/ planetary conquest will require carrying all of your materials with you into battle. This way, if you would like to use a blueprint, you would have to manufacture it on the spot, from materials you bring with you. Copies on the other hand can easily be brought with you as they contain the necessary goods for battle already as part of their package. In other words, blueprints will be free to use in highsec and maybe FW, but in lowsec/PC/nullsec they will require some other material. This source of material will somehow have to be preloaded prior to battle, possibly on the MCC, or in Supply Depot installations. This shouldn't be as significant of an economic impact as it sounds however, because the use of these materials probably won't be that different. FW/PC battles probably wont be using nearly as much MLT/ blueprint equipment as public matches. Tl;dr- Imagine that 'copies' are like buying both a Betty Crocker cake mix and the recipe together at the store. You still have to make the cake at some point. 'Blueprints' are like having the recipe with the right or permission to go to any cake store and make the cake there at no extra cost as long as you eat it there. Or you can take the recipe and make it for your friends but you have to buy the ingredients first. Either way...at the end there will be cake... ...that you can have or eat...but not both...
Beren Hurin OMNI Endeavors 304	Posted - 2013.03.27 16:49:00 - [2] - Quote Buster Friently wrote: As a guess, based on them implementing BPCs, we might see the requirement that all dropsuits be manufactured. In other words, you wouldn't be able to fit a blueprint, only an actual suit - that you would manufacture from blueprints (copies or originals). This is how it works in Eve, and I expect at some point, this is how it will work in Dust. This is kind of what I'm thinking too, and would be more elegant. You may basically have a fittings interface where you preload dropsuit copies into an MCC that you can then access while in game. These prepackaged suits will require the requisite materials to be loaded, but said materials, copy licenses, etc will not be usable for other matches you would partake in. IOW you still keep your blueprints (BPOs), but you can turn them into copies by spending the materials to make the things. It could be even more elegant of an implementation if when the system was coming into effect our blueprints basically would slowly degrade by use from extremely efficient to standard blueprints. They could take 25% of the normal materials for production compared to copies of the same level, but then after 100 runs or so they would return to the normal efficiency.
Beren Hurin OMNI Endeavors 304	Posted - 2013.03.27 16:50:00 - [3] - Quote DJINN Marauder wrote: Actually there are BPOs and BPCs Both have blueprint in the name... I know, in my case i'm using 'blueprints' for BPOs and copies for BPCs. The correlation isn't really direct from Eve to Dust and 'blueprint originals' just sounds like sloppy English.
Beren Hurin OMNI Endeavors 304	Posted - 2013.03.27 16:51:00 - [4] - Quote Reav Hannari wrote: What is this tidal wave that you speak of? Beren Hurin wrote: Especially with the giveaways in April, with what sounds like a tidal wave of blueprints coming on the market... https://dust514.com/beta/human-endurance/ originally, but the GM now said that they aren't blueprints---see my edit.
Beren Hurin OMNI Endeavors 304	Posted - 2013.03.27 17:32:00 - [5] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: I'm pretty tired so maybe I'm missing something but I don't see how any of the CCP info is actually a change or pointing to one. There have been both BPOs and BPCs in Dust for longer than I've been playing, the terms are just applied to items which function differently than their EVE side equivalents. If in my currently muddled state I've missed somenew and different information from CCP can someone please direct me to it? (yes I've read the link in the post above mine). Cheers, Cross There isn't any new info from them, it was my misunderstanding that made me think this. I'm just pretty sure that we won't just be buying only copies or blueprints from the marketplace forever. There will have to be some way to have raw materials, and maybe processed materials as part of the market. So this is mainly speculation, now. Because we can really only demand consumable items, CCP had to make the marketplace allow for their demands first. If it wants to make the marketplace more complex, the next tier of goods will be whatever goes into the items we are consuming. So what I'm suggesting is what COULD be one way forward for the next interation of the marketplace. Now that we have consumable goods, we need a way to get/make their precedent; processed/salvaged or raw materials. Lets say that across the universe there were a total of 10 different sleeper drone materials and 40 different planetary materials and 8 different processed materials to make any equipment, dropsuit, module, or vehicle. I am suggesting that eventually that there will be blueprints (BPOs) of all equipment currently on the marketplace, but anything that is going to be used will have to be turned into a copy (BPC) via assembly of these materials. Like in eve BPOs couldbe researched to be more efficient. The least efficient ones could make their equipment instantaneously like they do now, or they could be researched (at labs) and have a limited amount of runs to make more stuff for cheaper. So the mass sale of BPOs for aurum could be another way CCP raises capital, but if BPOs could also be sold on the market for isk this could be another way to reduce that controversy. This is not unlike the sale of PLEX.
Beren Hurin OMNI Endeavors 304	Posted - 2013.03.27 17:56:00 - [6] - Quote So under Marketplace 2.0 everyone that owns a BPO (blueprint) has the right to 'manufacture' that item. However they need to acquire the materials to do so. THere would likely initially be NPC corps offering the access to these raw materials at static prices. When Marketplace 2.0 would hit you would be able to look at your blueprint and see how many runs (manufacturing iterations) are left at the current efficiency level of the blueprint. Really this would have a kind of fall-off so the more runs you would try to run the less efficient it would be. (Lore wise- this could be due to the unstable nature of current nano-processing memory retention in production materials.) The marketplace would still offer the 'best price' for each good sold in your area, but now, the NPC corps would be competing to sell goods against other players who have their goods for sale made from BPOs. NPC prices would be equivalent to somewhere around a 75% to 80% efficiency level so as to require a somewhat significant amount of investment in material/isk to beat their prices. To reiterate, there would be NO manufacturing time. If you had the materials and the blueprints you could make a 'copy package' instantaneously. However, it would take time to research your BPO to the point where you could make a profit selling your copies for cheaper than NPCs. After you have produced all of the runs from your researched blueprint, its quality would degrade once more requireing more research/resynchronizing/catalyzing whatever you wanted to call it. This would be the mechanism that controls cost across the regions. Raising/lowering the investment cost/time of the efficiency curve on each blueprint would be what changes the marketability of each item produced.
Beren Hurin OMNI Endeavors 305	Posted - 2013.03.27 18:30:00 - [7] - Quote Looking at the numbers lets consider a standard nanohive blueprint. With over 100 million sold lets ballpark that about 100k are sold each hour. Working backwards you'd need a system that could enable at least an order of magnatude's worth more to be produced in that amount of time. Hypothetically, lets also say that the max runs of any researched blueprint is 100. -The NPC efficiency rate is 85% -The average NPC sale of the STD nanohive is $4040. -This means that a blueprint that is 100% efficient would cost $3513 in materials. -CCP offered a number of different avenues to acquire STD BPOs prior to marketplace 2.0 resulting in 15,000 owned. -Each STD nanohive starts at 65% efficiency requireing a 5% cost investment and 10 minutes per 1% improvement. So to improve the BPO to 95% (or by 30%) the user would wait 5 hours and pay $5,270, -Since his his 100 runs would be 95% efficient he could produce them for $3689 isk and sell them for as much as $4039 each. -His profit on each unit would be 350 isk minus 53 isk per unit for the research cost. As far as BPOs go, in this case, 15,000 BPOs would represent about 6 million units made (per day) at maximum efficiency if everyone fully researched each BPO and was online to produce and resynch their BPOs once they finished researching.
Beren Hurin OMNI Endeavors 305	Posted - 2013.03.27 18:33:00 - [8] - Quote Klivve Cussler wrote: Quote: To reiterate, there would be NO manufacturing time. If you had the materials and the blueprints you could make a 'copy package' instantaneously. However, it would take time to research your BPO to the point where you could make a profit selling your copies for cheaper than NPCs. Why not? I mean, I don't think it should be a long time, especially for simple items, but NO time? That seems off. Please read carefully. Your lead time would come from resynching/researching the BPO. They would be unusable during this process. This mechanic would throttle how many things everyone could manufacture on a daily basis. So if each BPO could have a max of 100 runs before they degraded back to an unusable efficiency then you'd set them all to research right before you log off. Then when you get back in, you could make 100 runs of each item from the BPO but any additional you'd want to make would be cost prohibative, so you'd start the research over.
Beren Hurin OMNI Endeavors 305	Posted - 2013.03.27 18:46:00 - [9] - Quote Buster Friently wrote: Beren Hurin wrote: Klivve Cussler wrote: Quote: To reiterate, there would be NO manufacturing time. If you had the materials and the blueprints you could make a 'copy package' instantaneously. However, it would take time to research your BPO to the point where you could make a profit selling your copies for cheaper than NPCs. Why not? I mean, I don't think it should be a long time, especially for simple items, but NO time? That seems off. Please read carefully. Your lead time would come from resynching/researching the BPO. They would be unusable during this process. This mechanic would throttle how many things everyone could manufacture on a daily basis. So if each BPO could have a max of 100 runs before they degraded back to an unusable efficiency then you'd set them all to research right before you log off. Then when you get back in, you could make 100 runs of each item from the BPO but any additional you'd want to make would be cost prohibative, so you'd start the research over. Over time it would be the same effect. In my scheme the waiting time is done by the producer not the purchaser. Either way it prevents the market from balooning with goods because there is no time to produce at all. Expect CCP to implement an exact copy of Eve's system, or a simplification of it. I doubt research will be a part of it for a long time, maybe never. This is a simplification of Eve's system. The thing is what we have now wouldn't match the manufacturing paradigm of Eve. What we buy isn't 'instanced' as an individual item on Dust servers, they are very much scripts that let the item become instanced in battle. For this reason, I think my system could work fairly well.
Beren Hurin OMNI Endeavors 305	Posted - 2013.03.27 20:49:00 - [10] - Quote Yeah, my model doesn't really take location into anything. I think that could be a big part of the difficulty in rolling out whatever Marketplace 2.0 becomes. Like you said I could see manufacturing/researching becoming something that takes place completely using CREST data through a smartphone App interface, an HTML browser, or in either console or PC. Right now whatever does the queries and returns for the marketplace fittings really seems to get stuck on translating multiplier changes to whatever hiearchical db our suit fittings are kept in. My guess is that a contract and order based regional market interface is more than a year away.