DUST Search - On the subject of tanks versus Infantry dynamics

Neyev Detresym wrote:

It's very easy to see, especially in Ambush games, how much of a powerhouse a properly fitted tank is. It's not at all uncommon to see tank drivers go 15/1, 20/1, or upwards. The dynamics between tank and infantry are so poorly balanced that it was the reason I stopped playing in September. At the behest of a friend, I picked it back up two weeks or so ago, and was so sadly disappointed that the state of armored warfare still has not changed at all.

I would first like to bring to your attention the aspect of merc versus merc. A high-SP merc with high-tier gear can still be taken down by a low-SP low-tier gear player, even more easily if the low-SP character gets the jump on the high-SP player.

This does not translate at all into merc versus tank, even with several AV players. Right now my character is being specced for AV, with around 800k+ SP into related skills. The highest damage Forge Gun available to me right now is the Breach Forge Gun, with does 2100 damage but immobilizes me, making me choose between staying still behind cover and hoping the tank driver wanders past, or exposing myself in order to get a clear shot at the tank and hoping that I do not get killed during the 6-second charge up time. Even if I am lucky enough to get one shot off, the tank either kills me before I can finish charging the next shot or the tank runs away before my next shot is charged. If this is the premier anti-tank weapon, it is a very poor choice. The other Forge Guns are equally ineffective against tanks, often taking an entire magazine just to bring down the shields.

And even when other low-SP low-gear players join in the AV efforts, their Militia Swarm Launchers are practically useless, thanks to the still-somewhat-dodgy spread mechanism the launchers possess and the low damage they possess.

And if you are an low-spec AV player and the tank runs or, by some miracle, is destroyed, you are nearly useless to your team, as all you are armed with is an AV weapon and a pistol (if you even fit a pistol to your suits).

The reward for AV is not nearly high enough and is not easily obtained, while the reward for tank drivers is astronomical and is obtained with little to no work at all.

I managed to join into the beta during the E3 giveaway. I am saddened that this problem (along with the horrifically frustrating spawn issues) have not been fixed, and I cannot regret enough the money I spent on this game thinking it would be something great, because so far, after a year, little has been done in the way of balancing vehicles versus infantry, if anything at all.


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LeCuch SVER True Blood Unclaimed. 2	Posted - 2013.03.18 01:06:00 - [1] - Quote Neyev Detresym wrote: It's very easy to see, especially in Ambush games, how much of a powerhouse a properly fitted tank is. It's not at all uncommon to see tank drivers go 15/1, 20/1, or upwards. The dynamics between tank and infantry are so poorly balanced that it was the reason I stopped playing in September. At the behest of a friend, I picked it back up two weeks or so ago, and was so sadly disappointed that the state of armored warfare still has not changed at all. I would first like to bring to your attention the aspect of merc versus merc. A high-SP merc with high-tier gear can still be taken down by a low-SP low-tier gear player, even more easily if the low-SP character gets the jump on the high-SP player. This does not translate at all into merc versus tank, even with several AV players. Right now my character is being specced for AV, with around 800k+ SP into related skills. The highest damage Forge Gun available to me right now is the Breach Forge Gun, with does 2100 damage but immobilizes me, making me choose between staying still behind cover and hoping the tank driver wanders past, or exposing myself in order to get a clear shot at the tank and hoping that I do not get killed during the 6-second charge up time. Even if I am lucky enough to get one shot off, the tank either kills me before I can finish charging the next shot or the tank runs away before my next shot is charged. If this is the premier anti-tank weapon, it is a very poor choice. The other Forge Guns are equally ineffective against tanks, often taking an entire magazine just to bring down the shields. And even when other low-SP low-gear players join in the AV efforts, their Militia Swarm Launchers are practically useless, thanks to the still-somewhat-dodgy spread mechanism the launchers possess and the low damage they possess. And if you are an low-spec AV player and the tank runs or, by some miracle, is destroyed, you are nearly useless to your team, as all you are armed with is an AV weapon and a pistol (if you even fit a pistol to your suits). The reward for AV is not nearly high enough and is not easily obtained, while the reward for tank drivers is astronomical and is obtained with little to no work at all. I managed to join into the beta during the E3 giveaway. I am saddened that this problem (along with the horrifically frustrating spawn issues) have not been fixed, and I cannot regret enough the money I spent on this game thinking it would be something great, because so far, after a year, little has been done in the way of balancing vehicles versus infantry, if anything at all. A few problems with your logic here. A: The best forge gun, does not include the damage buffs from upgrading the skills to get it, it does not include the extra damage done to shield tanks, it does also not include any damage buffs on your dropsuit (which are pretty much a no brainer to throw on) B: You can throw an AV grenade about every 1-1.5 seconds. If you have Grenaider level 2, you can grab some Packed AV nades for like 4000 per life? If you drop a nanohive, that gives the tank (depending on type) anywhere from 2-7 seconds to kill you before he dies. If you have others helping, it'l die faster C: Precision Strikes can take out most tanks, which is a one-hit-no-chance-of-escape death strike D: A militia swarm hits me usually from 800-1200 me being a shield tank, so it hits armor tanks for about 1300-1900 depending on their stats. Most armor tanks run 6000 armor 1000 shield, without any buffs a militia swarm would kill it in about 5 shots. And no duh, a good tank shouldn't be killed by a militia swarm. But 2-3 militia swarm guys can take out a tank pretty quick if the tank is not prepared for it. You don't know how easy it is to die in a tank. If you are not always aware of what is happening, you can die in under 4 seconds. My record is one dude hitting me for 3100 shield and all of my armor (1100) with one forge gun shot. His forge gun charges up in 2 seconds. So that's 4 seconds. 4 seconds to lose 750k some ISK. So obviously it's hard to take out tanks, because you put alot of SP and ISK into them.
LeCuch SVER True Blood Unclaimed. 3	Posted - 2013.03.18 14:00:00 - [2] - Quote Zekain Kade wrote: An advanced assault forge gun can tear through a sagaris in 2 clips. Thats around 8-10 shots i think. If you arer placed in a good position. You would be able to kill that tank in about a minute. And that's just soloing it. If you have a partner, that tank will die extremely fast. Everyone whines that tanks are OP because no one will bother to spec into the higher leveled Av weaponry. It takes 2 shots to kill s Sica with an AVD assault forge gun. It takes around 4 shots to kill a Sica with a Milita Forge gun. Well it all depends. Advanced Assault forge guns run like 1200 damage i think, with a 2.5 second charge time? Forge gun hitting shield tanks give it an instant 30% damage boost (same with swarms hitting armor) so thats 1560 damage every 2.5 seconds, that is not including A: the +% damage from Weaponry and if you have it Forge Gun Prof. plus any damage mods you have. If we go off the base stats, a shield tank with around 40% resistance will take still 1400 damage or so (again some tanks run no resistance some tanks use active of 75% so 40 is in the middle) and that would take (most good shield tanks are 5500 shield 1000 armor, or so) you about 4-5 shots depending on the other damage buffs you have. That's 10-12.5 seconds. If you have a buddy, the time cuts in half. For amor tanks obiously you run up and chuck AV Nades at a 130% damage bonus. Forge guns don't do much against armor, i suggest AV nades because Armor is slow you can get off 3-5 before he can get out of range. And then swarm him while he's running.