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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 189 post(s) |
Booker DaFooker
Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS.
69
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Posted - 2013.03.15 16:16:00 -
[1] - Quote
well, fantastic stuff, it's the start of what I have been waiting for since start of closed beta. It's taken me all day to read throught he thread and I have a couple of Q's
As a defender or holder of a district can you move clones out of your district to another that you own and leave less than 100 clones in the original district?
As I understand it, a corp that does not own a district buys a pack to fight for a district they want. This may take several days of clone attrition to achieve. The attacking side has it's surviving clones sold back at half price after the battle. In order to continue they will have to buy another pack to continue the attack the next day and so on until success. Is it viable to expect that small corps will be able to afford up to a potential 100 mil ISK expense to take a district?
If true this may spark some interesting tactics, such as the attacking side preventing the hacking of null cannons to prevent MCC destruction on either side while attempting to kill as many enemy clones as possible. Mind you, the defending side may exploit this by retreating and making the battle last over an hour so they could reinforce, an unlikely scenario but possible!
Defending side may also know that attacking corp is small so they remain in Mcc and sacrifice 100 clones knowing attackers cant afford to come back, assuming thay had plenty more in storage of course! lol |
Booker DaFooker
Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS.
73
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Posted - 2013.03.18 21:54:00 -
[2] - Quote
preferred to 100 ISK baseline clone price, we all like profit right? Makes the districts worth fighting for.
I do worry that smaller corps are being priced out of starting with the 40mil buy in. it's not a problem for me personally but new blood is always essential in any economy, it's like the housing market, it all grinds to a halt without first time buyers! |
Booker DaFooker
Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS.
74
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Posted - 2013.03.19 17:20:00 -
[3] - Quote
Sorry if this has been covered but just got in from work after thinking about this and wanted to get it down while on my mind
Surely there should be a mechanic in place to allow defenders to reinforce to at least their pre attack levels with some room to also increase numbers if they successfully defend their district. Otherwise there is a possibility that corps will just abandon districts if they know that a large corp/ alliance has targeted them and may even be coerced into doing so by prior arrangement.
A big alliance with big resources can basically guarantee victory through attrition even if they lose some battles. It doesn't seem right that a defender may win a hard fought victory but with significant clone losses which under the current system it can't replace in 24 hrs if a well stocked alliance continues its attack with a restocked clone attack force.
In this scenario the defenders could lose their district even though they win every battle!
A small corps that realizes this in a fully stocked district can abandon and receive either 30 mil or 45 mil for selling their clones which gets them a new clone pack. They are not in as great a position as they were but better than kicked from district with all clones destroyed and they now have the means to go and try and usurp someone they have a chance against with a clone pack.
Big corps that know this can sweeten the deal by prior arrangement with some extra isk and why would the little corps refuse? they can't win over time as a defender and its cheaper for a big corp to part fund an abandonment.
The 100 clone production rate would partly mitigates this and it is almost solved if on a PF but it seems that it will go down to 75 and 100 which would not be enough so I think this is a real issue.
Under current proposals, district defenders are 100% doomed to fail if up against well stocked rivals even if they win all their battles.
Thoughts? |
Booker DaFooker
Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS.
74
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Posted - 2013.03.19 17:38:00 -
[4] - Quote
true but the situation still stands, you could be small but pretty good, win all your defensive battles but still lose your district in a few days depending on your clone losses in battle. A well stocked corp/alliance may well choose to continue on the offensive even if they are not winning battles because they know that eventually they will get the district. If the defending district is restocked after winning then it is much less likely to be bullied off it's district by corps who are just bigger but not better
Of course, if you lose then you lose your clones and your new total is the new maximum you can be re-stocked to, but I'm also still inclined to allow a mechanic that allows some guaranteed increase in clone stocks if you keep winning consecutive attacks |
Booker DaFooker
Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS.
74
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Posted - 2013.03.19 19:16:00 -
[5] - Quote
Garrett Blacknova wrote:Booker DaFooker wrote:true but the situation still stands, you could be small but pretty good, win all your defensive battles but still lose your district in a few days depending on your clone losses in battle. A well stocked corp/alliance may well choose to continue on the offensive even if they are not winning battles because they know that eventually they will get the district. If the defending district is restocked after winning then it is much less likely to be bullied off it's district by corps who are just bigger but not better
Of course, if you lose then you lose your clones and your new total is the new maximum you can be re-stocked to, but I'm also still inclined to allow a mechanic that allows some guaranteed increase in clone stocks if you keep winning consecutive attacks If you're small and good, winning every battle, I've shown the numbers in a particularly bad situation where you're suffering 100 clone deaths per battle, and you're still only suffering a net loss of 25 clones - less if the attackers brought more than 150 clones per attack and you win by MCC destruction, or if you have the Production Facility SI. It would require a minimum of 4 districts to sustain attacks like for any length of time, and it would require more than a week of constant attacking to grind the target district down in this manner. 7 days x 3 million ISK = 21 million if you hold the required number of districts and can go for a week without ANY of your districts being attacked at the wrong moment, and assuming any attacks that do happen are repelled with minimal losses on your part. 7 days x 40 million ISK = 280 million ISK if you hold no districts and are really, REALLY serious about wanting that particular district and money is no object. Either way, the defenders spend a grand total of 0 ISK making you fight for it for over a week. Who's really getting the better deal here?
Your point is good and obviously we are talking about the big corps being very determined in it's task but 150 clones a day is the product of two districts or less which doesn't seem to me to be a big drain if you have many districts and the little guy has no ally's to lock reinforcing district.
This also brings me back to my previous point that small corps could be bought out of a no win situation for them and abandon to order at a preset time allowing big corps in hassle free for a price plus whatever the small corps gets for its clone sale |
Booker DaFooker
Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS.
74
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Posted - 2013.03.19 19:54:00 -
[6] - Quote
Django Quik wrote:Garrett Blacknova wrote:Booker DaFooker wrote:Your point is good and obviously we are talking about the big corps being very determined in it's task but 150 clones a day is the product of two districts or less which doesn't seem to me to be a big drain if you have many districts and the little guy has no ally's to lock reinforcing district.
This also brings me back to my previous point that small corps could be bought out of a no win situation for them and abandon to order at a preset time allowing big corps in hassle free for a price plus whatever the small corps gets for its clone sale While it's true that 150 clones a day can be produced by a single district, that's NOT how it works out when you're calculating an attack on an enemy district. EDIT: Also, if you get your corp paid off, what's to stop you from using that huge wad of cash to launch a war of attrition against the district you just sold and reclaim it? Because if you could negotiate the kind of payout that would support it, why not? I wouldn't ever take or offer a payout when one of the big corps is involved - because you can't guarantee either will happen, you're trusting that either the money will be paid when you hand over the district, or that the district will be handed over when you pay the money. There aren't any corps I'd trust that would hold me to ransom and then give me a good deal.
YUP!
As ever, welcome to new eden!
Well maybe it just adds to the meta game and should be left alone
Still feel that a successful defence should carry a reward rather than be barely compensated. 50+ clone winning margins are common place with blueberries in pubs but not so likely in PC IMHO. This leaves even good corps vulnerable to a no win situation even when they beat their opponents regularly and that just doesnt seem fair.
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Booker DaFooker
Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS.
74
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Posted - 2013.03.19 23:41:00 -
[7] - Quote
given that the act of moving your clones into a district is what either claims a district or sets up an attack, I think we can safely say that the movement of clones is instant |
Booker DaFooker
Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS.
74
|
Posted - 2013.03.19 23:54:00 -
[8] - Quote
Garrett Blacknova wrote:Laurent Cazaderon wrote:Garrett Blacknova wrote:Laurent Cazaderon wrote:Nope, it has been said clone movement is done instantly. So when setting the attack, your 150 clones would 'leave" your district and idle in the targetted one. Unless it works differently for fights.
The whole point of this post was to raise questions. This particular question - do the clones travel immediately on declaring the attack, or immediately on INITIATING it? - is an important one that I'm now surprised we didn't think to ask earlier. As for the scenario you're presenting though, the OPTION to attack is created just BEFORE the attacker goes into battle. They have one hour to accept that option, and if they take it, the attack is initiated based on the time the option was created - NOT the time it was accepted. This allows you to effectively declare an attack an hour later than you should be allowed to under normal circumstances. ok so the "dibs hour" gives you the possibility to not wait 24h+ before rematch. Makes sense and thanks for clearing the air. Let's hope Foxfour or Null can give us an answer regarding clone movement timing when setting an attack. TECHNICALLY, it "backdates" the attack order to a moment before the RT. 11:59:59 Attack option created for the target district of the attack that's about to happen. THIS is when an attack using the option is actually created, not the time that the option is claimed. 12:00:00 Attack begins. 12:00:01 - 12:59:59 At any point during this window, the attacker can claim their option to attack, and it activates as of the option's creation - thus allowing the attack to effectively have already been initiated before being confirmed. Another thing I'm curious about is whether or not this attack can be initiated before the battle ends. We already know it's possible - if unlikely - to draw a battle out for more than an hour. If it looks like that hour is about to run out, can you initiate the attack for the following day in spite of the battle still continuing? And more importantly, if you can, and you do, and after setting the follow-up attack, what happens if you win the battle and claim the district? does the attack turn into a normal clone move? Is it cancelled? Do you get to launch an attack on your own territory?
I seem to remember a dev post earlier here (i am not searching 50 odd pages for it! lol) that stated that the "dibs" hour happens for an hour after the battle has finished. |
Booker DaFooker
Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS.
74
|
Posted - 2013.03.19 23:56:00 -
[9] - Quote
Parson Atreides wrote:Booker DaFooker wrote:given that the act of moving your clones into a district is what either claims a district or sets up an attack, I think we can safely say that the movement of clones is instant I think of attacking an occupied district more as setting down a flag and saying "okay we're going to hit these guys, so you can't". It sounds a little strange, but it makes a lot more sense then "okay we've moved these 150 clones to this district and we're going to wait 24-47 hours for the defenders to get ready before we attack". Also, it makes more sense that moving them to one of your own districts or to an unoccupied district wouldn't take any time because there's no one to stop you from just walking in. With an enemy district, there is.
I hear what you say, nevertheless, currently an attack is instigated by the action of moving your clones to an occupied district |
Booker DaFooker
Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS.
74
|
Posted - 2013.03.20 00:08:00 -
[10] - Quote
Parson Atreides wrote:Booker DaFooker wrote:given that the act of moving your clones into a district is what either claims a district or sets up an attack, I think we can safely say that the movement of clones is instant I think of attacking an occupied district more as setting down a flag and saying "okay we're going to hit these guys, so you can't". It sounds a little strange, but it makes a lot more sense then "okay we've moved these 150 clones to this district and we're going to wait 24-47 hours for the defenders to get ready before we attack". Also, it makes more sense that moving them to one of your own districts or to an unoccupied district wouldn't take any time because there's no one to stop you from just walking in. With an enemy district, there is.
I think you have to suspend lore a little bit here regarding the 24 hour delay, your district is invaded by the arrival of enemy forces, but the delay is forced on us because of real world considerations to allow players from all over the world to play this game without descending into timezone chaos. Clearly, within new eden a defence would be immediately mounted |
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Booker DaFooker
Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS.
74
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Posted - 2013.03.20 18:38:00 -
[11] - Quote
Laurent Cazaderon wrote:Garrett Blacknova wrote:After thinking about this a lot while I slept all day (because asleep is when I do my best thinking, apparently), I've realised that sending the attackers instantly is a GOOD thing for the game.
Why?
Because it forces the attackers to balance out the delays in attacking and the delay in their own reinforcements replacing the attacking clones. And because it gives the attackers some chance to attack while also having at least a chance at defending themselves against someone else - or a retaliatory attack from another district under the same (or allied/hired) ownership.
Lets say the attacker has their RT set to 06:00 and the defender has 12:00. If the attacker declares their attack at 11:30 to minimise the amount of warning their target is given, that means they're waiting for almost 18 hours with a 150 clone hole in their defenses. If they instead launch their attack at 5:30 to better line up with their reinforcements, then they give the enemy Corp an extra 6 hours' notice about the attack, which could potentially mean the difference between having your best player (or a high-tier squad from a friendly/mercenary Corp) and not getting to them in time. Good thinking. Though the insta travel of attacking clones also has a downside that advantages the attacker. It allows him to replenish clones even before the attack. Say RT at 6:00 for the attacking district. Fully stocked with clones (300 default district) Attack is set at 5:30 => 150 clone insta move out => 150 clones remaining. At 6:00 => Generates clones => 225 clones remaining. 250 with a PF. I dont see any attacker pass on this refill of clones just to shorten the warning given to its opponent tbh. Also, that's a huge incentive to attack if you have a good amount of money and dont care much about selling excess clones. With that and the fact that the defensive district has no option to send in reinforcement as soon as it's under attack + the no-generating clones when losing MCC and you have many downside in defending. Also, i saw my last remark was unnoticed so displaying it again: When a district is "under attack", you cannot move clones to it. OK. When the fight actually happens, attacker gets "dibs hour". OK When can the attacker decide to use that dibs hour to attack again the next day ? After battle ? Before ? both ? Garret raised that question before and it deserves an answer. Point is to determine if the defensive corp can get a time during which its district goes back to "online" between the beginning of the RT and the battle and before the decision of the attacker to keep on attacking is made. Having the status of its district to go back to "online" would thus mean being able to move clones in or out. Example: District A attacks District B RT is 12-13 => District B is locked. No movement of clones allowed. Next day, RT starts at 12h00. => What is the status of District B ? Online again ? Still locked until battle happens and is over ? => If it goes back to online, nothing stops the defender to move clones in or out. => If it stays locked for the entire RT (which would make sense) then nothing changes compared to our previous simulation. => Other option would be to have district B go back to "online" status and give the option to the attacker to send a second attack notice even before the first fight happens. That could create a very tensed time during which both defender and attacker would have to anticipate their next move. Do i back up that district and risk that this attack is just a decoy for me to drop guard on another one ? Should i block that district reinforcement by re-attacking it without knowing if that first fight will be successfull ? What do you guys think is best ? Should a defender be able to reinforce its district with clones from another district between two attacks from the same assailant ?
Attacker can only use the dibs hour after battle, it is activated by the ending of the battle for an hour
I think there should be a mechanic to allow a winning defending team to reinforce or to get a production bonus so that they can replenish to the level of clones they were at before battle start |
Booker DaFooker
Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS.
74
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Posted - 2013.03.20 21:16:00 -
[12] - Quote
Django Quik wrote:Booker DaFooker wrote:Laurent Cazaderon wrote: What do you guys think is best ? Should a defender be able to reinforce its district with clones from another district between two attacks from the same assailant ?
Attacker can only use the dibs hour after battle, it is activated by the ending of the battle for an hour I think there should be a mechanic to allow a winning defending team to reinforce or to get a production bonus so that they can replenish to the level of clones they were at before battle start I like the idea of being able to reinforce your district if you win a defense. Effectively an attacker gets to reinforce whether they win or lose - maybe there should be some sort of mechanic that prevents a losing attacker from reinforcing?
Don't reckon there's any need to change the attacker's outcome Win or lose, just buff a winning defence so that people have to beat you because they're better than you not just bigger |
Booker DaFooker
Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS.
74
|
Posted - 2013.03.21 07:48:00 -
[13] - Quote
Absolute Idiom II wrote:Let's imagine a corp with 3 districts. If only one district is under attack they will never be at risk of losing the district no matter the quality of their attackers since they can easily reinforce with 150 clones per day. This principle expands out to corps with larger numbers of districts. A corp will only suffer a net loss of clones if more than 1 third of it's districts are under attack.
At this stage, it's not possible to accurately predict how many districts will be attacked each day and so calls for REQUIRED reinforcements are premature. I'd like to see the current system in action before we start theory crafting that reinforcements are REQUIRED to be allowed.
You are using old numbers, current proposals are 75 or 100 with PF. Even if they went ahead with the 100 and 150 option (which I personally much prefer as it makes districts more valuable) then the 150 will still only apply to a lucky third of districts |
Booker DaFooker
Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS.
74
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Posted - 2013.03.21 07:55:00 -
[14] - Quote
trollsroyce wrote:I would like the defenders to start with all installations and NULL cannons blue. This would make sense lorewise and give a much needed advantage to defense.
After this kind of boost, if attackers win they deserve the spoils and if defenders lose they deserve the clone loss and lockdown.
I agree that this so obvious it should have been an automatic consideration! Come on GDP what we're you thinking?
I think you may have a point then that if the defenders can't keep clone loss to a minimum in this situation then they can be rightfully ground down by attrition. Hmmm, not sure, interesting to think on though |
Booker DaFooker
Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS.
74
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Posted - 2013.03.21 14:19:00 -
[15] - Quote
letting succussful defending districts to reinforce from another district is not a great answer I think, pretty pointless if you're the little guy on one district.
I'm thinking a mechanic that allows a production bonus on victorious defence. ie. your poulation is motivated by the win and the desperation to keep their district to make a superhuman effort to produce more clones for their valiant protectors!! |
Booker DaFooker
Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS.
77
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Posted - 2013.03.27 12:38:00 -
[16] - Quote
Laurent Cazaderon wrote:Parson Atreides wrote:Looks good, though I think on this point: Quote: About the status of the targeted district on battle day, what state is it in when: -RT begins and before the battle starts -During the battle -During "Dibs Hour" and until attacker decides its next move You might want to ask directly if it's possible for a defender to send reinforcement clones from another district in the few minutes after an attack ends and before the enemy decides to attack again or not. The point here is to detect if there is a loop hole allowing for reinforcements being sent as i dont think it would be intended in any way. If status is "online" at any point, then you can send in reinforcement. Guess i could add something like that though. About the status of the targeted district on battle day, what state is it in when: -RT begins and before the battle starts -During the battle -During "Dibs Hour" and until attacker decides its next move If the district is online at any of those moment, then nothing can stop defenders from sending clones to it from another district ?
Although online that only effects clone production which will only go offline if a defense is lost. The district will remain locked (un-reinforceable) until battle starts, will remain locked during battle and still further remain locked throughout "dibs hour".
If your attacker does not attack again then you will have an opportunity to reinforce from another district between the end of dibs hour and before any one else gives notice of an attack which will lock you again.
Dibs hour starts directly after battle has finished. If attacker does not utilize dibs hour, any attack by another corps made after dibs hour will of course have to wait almost 48 hours for that battle to commence so defenders will get a chance to reinforce or produce more clones in time for it
............I think........ |
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