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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 189 post(s) |
Beren Hurin
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Posted - 2013.03.14 18:29:00 -
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Are we able to start looking at how many districts are on a planet yet? Where will the whole list of information be stored? Will that be a kind of surveying thing? |
Beren Hurin
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Posted - 2013.03.14 18:54:00 -
[2] - Quote
Is there a max amount of clones an attacker can move? And does the amount of clones moved affect the cost of transportation or is it just distance? |
Beren Hurin
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Posted - 2013.03.14 19:13:00 -
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So right now, a maxed out district with a production facility will net 60 clones per reinforcement time that they will then sell to genolution for 100k each or 6mill isk. Otherwise a district will make 4 million isk each day.
So from clone profit alone it will take 25 days to pay off a normal infrastructure investment. It would take 17 days to pay off investments with a production facility.
Either way, it seems that district profits alone will not be able to sustain thinly stretched war mongerers this doesn't even include logistics costs.
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Beren Hurin
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Posted - 2013.03.14 19:20:00 -
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CCP FoxFour wrote: All districts will also start with an SI.
I assume that this is a default infrastructure that does not give bonuses? |
Beren Hurin
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Posted - 2013.03.14 19:25:00 -
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CCP FoxFour wrote:Beren Hurin wrote:CCP FoxFour wrote: All districts will also start with an SI.
I assume that this is a default infrastructure that does not give bonuses? Nope, the defaults will be randomized when we launch.
So seeded SI are destructable, but player built aren't removable? |
Beren Hurin
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Posted - 2013.03.14 19:32:00 -
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CCP FoxFour wrote:Beren Hurin wrote:Is there a max amount of clones an attacker can move? And does the amount of clones moved affect the cost of transportation or is it just distance? The maximum clones that can be moved is equal to the maximum of the district they are being moved from. The default is 300, but this can be made 450. And no, but see this table for complete details: http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Planetary_Conquest#Distance_And_Its_Effect_On_Moves
So to be clear here. 'Clone cost' is the total amount of clones you are left with after the move?
1) So a clone cost of 20% means that if you attacked with 100 clones you would arrive on planet with 20? 2) Can multiple districts from the same corp attack the same district? 100 from A and 150 from B attacks C? 3) Can you cancel an attack. I.e. if you do an 'all in' move with all your clones from your district, and someone attacks that sending district, are you basically then screwed? |
Beren Hurin
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Posted - 2013.03.14 19:38:00 -
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jackbubu wrote:CCP FoxFour wrote:jackbubu wrote:Seeing how you do not continue travel costs above 7 jumps am i correct to guess that the initial launch will be limited to 1 low sec region ? (would also fit the 250 districts) Correct. its gotta be Heimatar honour duel amamake Planet 1 Belt 1 || planet 1 district 1 B)
Well planets will have between 4-25 districts. Lets say the median planet has 9. That means that there will probably be 25-35 planets available for battle. I think there are less than 20 temperate planets in Heimatar available as lowsec systems with temperae planets. I haven't looked where genolution is yet... |
Beren Hurin
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Posted - 2013.03.14 19:49:00 -
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Will a corp's standing with genolution affect the cost of clone purchases from it? |
Beren Hurin
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Posted - 2013.03.14 20:05:00 -
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Quick pivot reveals the following systems with the conditions (not FW system, in lowsec, has temperate planet, has Genolution Station):
Aridia (Naga, Sakht, Tisot) Genesis (Toon, Zarer) Lonetrek (Iitanmadan, Nannaras) Metropolis (Gebuladi) Placid (Grispire) Tash-Murkon (Keshirou, Ordat, Rethan) The Forge (Otsela)
Some systems have 2 planets. But, if these are the right conditions for seeded districts, most of these regions will be secluded from others (outside of 5 jumps away). So we may see 'continental domination-possibly, but unlikely universe wide since once you have a district you can't 'attack from nowhere'. Your initial location will have to be your beginning point...I assume?
Interestingly, Genolution stations were seeded in lowsec constellations near each other. There are quite a few in highsec as well. |
Beren Hurin
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Posted - 2013.03.14 20:08:00 -
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CCP FoxFour wrote:
I should clarify 3. No you cannot cancel the attack. Think carefully about how many clones you want to attack with.
You can however move clones from district A (which you own) to district X (which someone else owns) and then move clones from district B (which you also own) to district A. Once another district attacks district A though you cannot move more clones to it.
This is alot like the rules of Diplomacy. Which kind of begs the question of reinforcements...How will allies factor in to all this? |
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Beren Hurin
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Posted - 2013.03.14 20:21:00 -
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CCP Nullarbor wrote:Beren Hurin wrote:CCP FoxFour wrote:
I should clarify 3. No you cannot cancel the attack. Think carefully about how many clones you want to attack with.
You can however move clones from district A (which you own) to district X (which someone else owns) and then move clones from district B (which you also own) to district A. Once another district attacks district A though you cannot move more clones to it.
This is alot like the rules of Diplomacy. Which kind of begs the question of reinforcements...How will allies factor in to all this? I love diplomacy. It has been a big inspiration for this design.
Based off this then, may I suggest an alteration to the 'one attacker' design, which would be "The first attacker or the next attacker in that reinforcement period with the highest number of arriving clones by a 10% margin (or something)" becomes the preeminent attacker.
This could enable allied supporting actions effectively.
Defender has district X. Attacker A attacks with 450 clones but is 2 districts away so they arrive in system with 270 clones. Ally B in same system as district X sees attacker and sends 273 clones from its lab upgraded district.
This action 'blocks' Attacker A, who then returns home with his 270 clones. But the risk is that ally B was forced to be vulnerable for that period. |
Beren Hurin
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Posted - 2013.03.14 20:37:00 -
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Skihids wrote:So the defender is limited to the clone count at the start of the timer, but what of the attacker?
As I read it, they can keep calling in follow on attacks from different districts until they whittle the defenders down to nothing. That means an attacker can almost be assured of a victory if they are willing to commit enough resources and a small corp can always be kicked back into space, correct?
As I read this you aren't exactly correct. If they destroy the enemy MCC they get 20% of the clones left in the MCC. So if the attackers are conservative with their clones, then the defenders could possibly end up with a net gain in clones while the attacker lost some in 'attrition' from the attack. In addition, the defender will get the attacker's loot, and also the attacker still paid to get there.
So if you are mounting a very strong defense continually, it's possible to be making isk. |
Beren Hurin
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Posted - 2013.03.14 21:00:00 -
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Success will be just as much about efficiency as it will be skill. Right now, current income levels means that if you are REALLY good you could make 1 million isk each hour you play. BUT if you are that good you really should be out in district fights. So lets say you can make 600kisk/ hour after losses. Thats about 6 clones in losses (opportunity cost of selling clone).
To sustain losses of 300 clone fights where you consistently lose you would be effectively paying 75 million isk+ per battle after other losses. Not to mention, the defender gets loot and isk from biomass. Then also, when you lose, that district that sent clones now has fewer clones so it must be considered for defensive purposes.
Sustained battles lasting weeks would be incredibly expensive and I doubt that any corp has the funds to cover something like it quite yet. |
Beren Hurin
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Posted - 2013.03.14 22:03:00 -
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Belzeebub Santana wrote:Gunner Nightingale wrote:I know others have shot down the dummy corp idea for holding a district indefinitely given the isk cost but once EVE isk can come into play that can easily be overcome at current isk rates.
So again there needs to be some safeguard beyond ISK to prevent dummycorp to attack valuable districts, if done properly keep the dummy corps to hold no districts, buy 100 clones attack most lucrative districts and keep them perputally engaged in combat 20million isk is nothing to make that happen. Ya a big corp collecting taxes from the members that just run pub matches can support a dummy corp. pretty well. But I guess this is a legitimate tactic and can see how this can be abused. Whats stopping you having multi dummy corp. since you cant own space to buy mercs, one simply makes a dozen corps and launders money into them to have them hold hi value places?
You can't transfer money from corp to corp yet. How would this happen. As soon as people move they have an employment history you can see in eve. You will be able to see the shell network system pretty quickly. |
Beren Hurin
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Posted - 2013.03.14 22:36:00 -
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trollsroyce wrote:WARNING AND DOOMSAY:
The described mechanic favors exponential growth! As the ISK making through clones is not dependant on resource rarity and consumption, this can be cracked down to "attack spam 10000 districs, snowball effect and insert rapton of ISK in New Eden".
This is purely a numbers game by spam attacking, setting tedious timezones as defense and just using all manhours in district flipping.
Nullsec sov passive ISK is relying on the moon minerals as industry materials, and by bottlenecks favors defending precious ones. As explained in blog, the system is cracked and won by exponential attack growth and hence by numbers.
NOOOOoooo!
The more districts you own the more places you will be able to be attacked from. The way they describe it, you will be able to be attacked at 100% efficiency from all districts in your system each day, the at decent efficiency from what will probably be like 25-30% of remaining districts. Just because you have lots of money it doesn't give you a win button. If you own 10 districts that is 10 man-hours x 16 members you will be vulnerable. You will be responsible for 160 man hours of defense time FOR DEFENSE ONLY. If you want to increase your attacking logarithmically you have to also find enough attacking teams good enough to make that pace of advance worth it. |
Beren Hurin
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Posted - 2013.03.14 22:44:00 -
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R F Gyro wrote:Average Joe81 wrote:What of Eve's current planetary installation system?
And also besides that, at the end of the blog it says corps will have to form armies and navies so does that mean that we are going to get boats or will we just be swimming around in a big ocean? lol - I get through 14.8 pages with no-one asking the question I was thinking, and then you pop up 2 posts from the end of the last page! I too would like to know whether the planets we'll be fighting for will also have Eve PI happening on them. I'm guessing there'd be no interaction between them anyway, but it is still interesting to think about. Maybe there could be some indication in the Eve PI interface that the planet has battles raging on it?
There is no reason they won't have PI on them. What has been said before and looks like is suggested on the wiki is that PI occurring in our districts will get bonuses from our installations. Causing the owners to maybe want to support us, but if they get their bonus regardless of owner then they won't care. What we need to know is what we get out of it. This is probably news for eve players at fanfest.
As far as a navy. Your EvE pilots are the navy doof! |
Beren Hurin
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Posted - 2013.03.14 22:49:00 -
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Also this doesn't say what the rewards will be in FW merc battles. Just SP? |
Beren Hurin
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Posted - 2013.03.15 12:04:00 -
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Are you guys ready to make any guarantees to corps about losses based on bugs? I.E. What happens if I attack, something is totally glitched and all of a sudden I land on planet with 50% of the clones I know I sent.? I imagine you don't want people to be too reserved at the beginning. |
Beren Hurin
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Posted - 2013.03.15 12:17:00 -
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trollsroyce wrote:CCP FoxFour wrote: We are currently thinking PI bonuses, POS fuel reduction, POS manufacturing bonus, and more but only for corporation and alliance members on the planet or the moons of that planet. Would love to hear more suggestions though.
Sweet! Now we're lookign at interesting things here.
- PI bonus: scales with nullsec PI scaling, making low truesec planets coveted. This is the best proposed bonus, as it scales with truesec.
- POS fuel reduction: if linked with the clone reserve mod, makes otherwise worthless frontier systems easier to defend on dust side while making them easier to fuel on EVE side.
- POS manufacturing bonus: absolutely lovely link to EVE. This could be related to specific reactions by planet, in order to make some planets coveted reaction POS planets. E.g. the POS manufacturing bonus for a specific reaction could be 500% so, that it makes sense to control that particular planet in order to make that particular reaction.
- Moon mineral yield increaser could be added. This would scale with the moons, becoming very valuable. The percentage should be minimal though, prehaps 5%. This mechanic would also allow for more vivid moon mineral market, as the valuable ones would be pumped with yield increasing planets first, and the next bottleneck would follow afterwards.
What about local faction standings increases for the owners and actions performed in that system. It could make it easier for players to improve their market effieciency and spin off side benefits. |
Beren Hurin
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Posted - 2013.03.15 14:02:00 -
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One bonus that planetary ownership could do is increase alchemy rates of moon materials, to the point where local moons become amazingly productive. |
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Beren Hurin
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Posted - 2013.03.15 14:13:00 -
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If anyone still reading is not an Eve player...
One thing that DUST players may not know about eve is that the linkage between planets and space goes through POCOs. So even if a DUST corp manages to control a few systems worth of districts, someone will also have to protect these fairly weak (has no guns) structures.
What does this mean?
Well, POCOs are basically shipping stations that set tax rates on goods shipped from the surface of a planet, and if they aren't on the planet, producers on the surface can only export in very small and expensive amounts that are fairly easy to steal. So say you have 4-5 different groups battling on a planet, and 3-4 big investors harvesting off of that planet. The Customs Office has just one owner. He is setting the tax rates of anything coming off that planet. Too high, and people won't make money, if its too low, he could be missing out on profits, but will likely draw many more producers.
The more productive a planet gets from Eve PI, the more attractive it gets to attack the POCO and its users. And it becomes THE place that the industrialists will be going to to pick up their goods. So what we will be looking at likely, is escorts for industrial ships picking up PI materials at these POCOs, since pilots will know where they will be and that their cargo could be very valuable (100s of millions in isk in fairly weak ships).
So as stacked advantages on the EVE side of Planetary Infrastructure happens, unless they have some sort of defensive impact on POCOs, you will need a group of pilots to match the strength and ability of your ground force if you want to fully reap the benefits of your ground dominance.
So to me this means it may be just as advantageous to spread yourself out a bit if you have the ability so that you can be diversified in terms of POCO owners and not beholden to the politics of a single planetary tax.
So I haven't seen much talk in Eve about this, but I'm guessing that once this really starts to trickle in, and the Region is announced all temperate POCOs in those systems will be targets. |
Beren Hurin
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Posted - 2013.03.15 14:39:00 -
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ChromeBreaker wrote:Beren Hurin wrote:If anyone still reading is not an Eve player... One thing that DUST players may not know about eve is that the linkage between planets and space goes through POCOs. So even if a DUST corp manages to control a few systems worth of districts, someone will also have to protect these fairly weak (has no guns) structures. What does this mean? Well, POCOs are basically shipping stations that set tax rates on goods shipped from the surface of a planet, and if they aren't on the planet, producers on the surface can only export in very small and expensive amounts that are fairly easy to steal. So say you have 4-5 different groups battling on a planet, and 3-4 big investors harvesting off of that planet. The Customs Office has just one owner. He is setting the tax rates of anything coming off that planet. Too high, and people won't make money, if its too low, he could be missing out on profits, but will likely draw many more producers. The more productive a planet gets from Eve PI, the more attractive it gets to attack the POCO and its users. And it becomes THE place that the industrialists will be going to to pick up their goods. So what we will be looking at likely, is escorts for industrial ships picking up PI materials at these POCOs, since pilots will know where they will be and that their cargo could be very valuable (100s of millions in isk in fairly weak ships). So as stacked advantages on the EVE side of Planetary Infrastructure happens, unless they have some sort of defensive impact on POCOs, you will need a group of pilots to match the strength and ability of your ground force if you want to fully reap the benefits of your ground dominance. So to me this means it may be just as advantageous to spread yourself out a bit if you have the ability so that you can be diversified in terms of POCO owners and not beholden to the politics of a single planetary tax. So I haven't seen much talk in Eve about this, but I'm guessing that once this really starts to trickle in, and the Region is announced all temperate POCOs in those systems will be targets. So far there hasn't been any confirmation on what or when the eve dust economic transfers will be or will happen... no point worrying about it till then edit: that's awful English sorry, but you get the idea...
You must not be an eve player...But I'm glad you are still interested in these details. My post has nothing to do with transfers. If you read the wiki it talks about bonuses that our SI will have on Eve PI. When this becomes known, hopefully it will be attractive enough to make people want to work together with us near our districts, maybe Eve players in our corps, maybe friendlies, maybe just nuetral investors. Everyone though will ship stuff through POCOs and thus there will be multiple parties interested in the happenings of who owns what districts on a planet because it will affect their bottom line.
What I'm saying is that when planets could be making billions of isk in products each week after the stacked multipliers, and they are making hundreds of millions in POCO taxes, people in the air will want to continue to see those stacked multipliers. But more people will want to end that profit as well. the average FPSer could just forget about all this and remain stupidly ignorant, but I'm just saying all this so that hopefully some of you guys will start to figure out who to be talking to and make friends with. |
Beren Hurin
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Posted - 2013.03.15 14:54:00 -
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CCP FoxFour wrote:ChromeBreaker wrote:trollsroyce wrote:Contest this thought, please: GÇó ringers are allowed GÇó you don't need to flip districts for mother corp GÇó mother corp just means the ringer community for split corps
GÇó results in that splitting corp ONLY expands possibilities, gives more attack chances, and speeds clone production to attack. why flip them for one corp? make a swam of corps, its even thief and disband proof.
You cant transfer clones between corps so each would be even until one produces more. 1 corp with 1 district (no upgrades) can attack once every 3 days (40Cl a day, 100Cl needed). 1 corp with 3 districts can attack everyday with spare. Its economically and tactically better to have more districts as you can attack, and enforce your own districts, more effectively. But you need to have more districts which is how this convo started It is only an advantage on day one where you can buy lots of starter packs and try and take a bunch of unowned districts. Once things get past that initial flash point it will be far better to be in one corporation and having the ability to transfer clones between districts.
Wait how many starter packs can a single corp buy on day one then? I thought it was just one...? |
Beren Hurin
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Posted - 2013.03.15 15:06:00 -
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ChromeBreaker wrote:
Link?
Im a long time eve player, but until this goes global (universal?) ie not a single region, my point stands that its not worth worrying about until specifics and dates are released.
Pi is profitable as it is, suddenly pumping more materials out will crash the economy and not make it worth it.
My assumption was that these temperate planets would be the best place to start making P4 goods hopefully for the stacking. It could be faster, it could take less energy so that you can make more with a single character. And if a lot of the bonuses had to do with infrastructure efficiency, P3s may also be attractive to make here. For that reason, if lowsec planets became primarily important for production efficiency and not harvesting efficiency, they would still be advantageous for the marketplace even if there was no net increase on demand for P3s and P4s.
However I can speculate that P3s and P4s increase in importance as a lot of P3s sound like materials that Dusters would use, and POSs may now become more ubiquitous in lowsec as a result of planetary colonization because of the bonuses that these temperate planets would provide.
There could be a temperate planet with only 3 districts, but 25 moons, which means that the per capita effect on production from those districts could be so much more powerful than planets with many districts with contant fights and only a few moons. There will be a lot more to do in lowsec now. |
Beren Hurin
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Posted - 2013.03.15 15:09:00 -
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ChromeBreaker wrote:
1 pack/ corp/ day... multiple sister corps
Okay cool, I can see the other people's points though, that the stacking properties on the eve side would be better if districts were united under 1 corp.
But i've been thinking about a valid strategy with sister groups where you have a shell group take a planet, fill up their clones, and then sell them all right before parent attacks them. Not sure how mechanics affect this...does it become locked after you sell? |
Beren Hurin
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Posted - 2013.03.15 15:11:00 -
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CCP FoxFour wrote:The whole team will be around for some time answering questions in this thread. We are really looking forward to getting your feedback on this and discussing it with you. What you are getting now is very nuts and bolts type information. We will have more information to give you between now and Fanfest, and more at Fanfest. We wanted to get this out ASAP to get your feedback though.
I think you edited out your link to the wiki page here for some reason? |
Beren Hurin
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Posted - 2013.03.15 15:21:00 -
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CCP FoxFour wrote:Beren Hurin wrote:ChromeBreaker wrote:
1 pack/ corp/ day... multiple sister corps
Okay cool, I can see the other people's points though, that the stacking properties on the eve side would be better if districts were united under 1 corp. But i've been thinking about a valid strategy with sister groups where you have a shell group take a planet, fill up their clones, and then sell them all right before parent attacks them. Not sure how mechanics affect this...does it become locked after you sell? Selling does not lock the district, but a locked district can still be attacked, I'm confused...The wiki says "The specific action of selling clones will cause the source district to be locked. " but also the table says that the ending state of selling clones' source district is still online. Maybe the table should read "locked, online" for source district new state, then? |
Beren Hurin
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Posted - 2013.03.15 15:29:00 -
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CCP FoxFour wrote: ...I'm cool and I recognize when I've made a small mistake and I fix it quickly...
...Not too much of a mixup. I was hoping that was how it was anyway because I wanted to be the first to coin this term (or something like it):
Biomasscade (B-scade)- Biomass + cascade. When a spy or disturbed director sells all of the clones in all of a corporation's districts causing complete vulnerability to be taken over, and then runs away with the profits. It's bound to happen...
For those who don't know a 'failscade' in Eve is when an alliance loses ownership of all of or much of their soveriegnty because of the maintenance bills that they do not, can not, or forget to pay out of wallets that often are stolen from. |
Beren Hurin
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Posted - 2013.03.15 15:37:00 -
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When you want to start letting players trade clones one infrastructure could be a 'clone trade port' Allows transfer and trade of this cargo to and from up to 5 systems away. Users have to pay a transportation tax which partially then also goes to the owners. |
Beren Hurin
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Posted - 2013.03.15 15:56:00 -
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CCP FoxFour wrote:LXicon wrote:Could you make a single page version of this thread with only the Dev posts? Or, could you compile a Q&A thread that has all the questions asked and answers given?
The Devs tend to quote the question they are currently answering and having a single page with all the Dev posts would make it much easier to search for an answer that might have been on page 5 or 17 or 22.
Thanks.
This will take a lot of effort but I shall poke some people and see if we can maybe look at updating the FAQ on the first page. We did reserve a second post for that purpose.
Can't you just go through the Dev-posts forum tab...? |
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Beren Hurin
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Posted - 2013.03.15 16:07:00 -
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Maximus Stryker wrote:This all sound very exciting, a big thank you for Fox Four for a 28 page (and counting) Q&A!
A) Do the defenders have an MCC as well or only the attackers (aka original skirmish/skirmish 1.0)? B) Is there a match timer (what if no one did anything during a match, what would happen)?
Is the following scenario accurate? Defenders have 200 clones in a district. Attackers land 250. Monday's battle: defenders lose 100 clones and attackers lose 100 clones Tuesday's battle: defenders lose 100 clones and attackers lose 100 clones Attackers have 50 remaining clones on the district so it becomes their's Wednesday, the former attackers and now district owners have 90 clones on the district
Also that scenario would work differently in that the third attack would not be possible because the attacker needs at least 100 clones. However, if the defending district did not reinforce after the first attack and did lose their last 100 clones, and the attacker won, but lost all 100 clones due to minimum clone loss, I'm not sure who wins or the state of the district...Is it reabandoned?
This might have been answered before... |
Beren Hurin
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Posted - 2013.03.15 16:09:00 -
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CCP FoxFour wrote:Beren Hurin wrote:CCP FoxFour wrote:LXicon wrote:Could you make a single page version of this thread with only the Dev posts? Or, could you compile a Q&A thread that has all the questions asked and answers given?
The Devs tend to quote the question they are currently answering and having a single page with all the Dev posts would make it much easier to search for an answer that might have been on page 5 or 17 or 22.
Thanks.
This will take a lot of effort but I shall poke some people and see if we can maybe look at updating the FAQ on the first page. We did reserve a second post for that purpose. Can't you just go through the Dev-posts forum tab...?Not the prettiest, but you can subscribe to it. It's a search query so it will give you all dev responses. Someone could spend a couple hours summarizing everything that has been said, but there is still a lot between the lines that we will need to reason out. I really need to stop having quotes the first thing said in my posts. The dev post thing does not show what is a quote and what is not. :(
The RSS Feed (my link) does show it, but in an HTML sort of raw format, so quick editing of it could yield you helpful results. |
Beren Hurin
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Posted - 2013.03.15 16:12:00 -
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Khalid Iunnrais wrote:Question: In a large clone-count battle, is there any disadvantage to having your MCC destroyed after you've already lost 100 clones?
For example, defender has 500 clones, fights until they lose 100 clones, then sits behind the redline, allowing the attacker to end the match, forcing them to retry tomorrow.
Anything to discourage that, and to encourage actually duking it out further? Because it sounds to me like once the 100 clone mark is hit, the defender has no incentive to fight more if they want to stall.
Well in a way it would sort of be imposed clone loss of 40 for the defender, because if the attacker kills the MCC, then clone production stops. |
Beren Hurin
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Posted - 2013.03.15 16:20:00 -
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ChromeBreaker wrote:Can you buy/sell single clones? or will they be in batches of 10-100-200?
Buy in batches of 100. Sell what you choose, and whatever is over the amount your district can hold.
It should be noted that this is how the market is being created, eventually players will somehow completely control clone generation, and then you'll probably be able to buy one at a time. That's why I suggested a Clone Shipping/Trade Hub as infrastructure. It'd basically be a marketplace for buying/selling clones and delivering them a limited distance. |
Beren Hurin
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Posted - 2013.03.15 16:36:00 -
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Booker DaFooker wrote:If true this may spark some interesting tactics, such as the attacking side preventing the hacking of null cannons to prevent MCC destruction on either side while attempting to kill as many enemy clones as possible. Mind you, the defending side may exploit this by retreating and making the battle last over an hour so they could reinforce, an unlikely scenario but possible! quote]
Also I've done the math on MCC/null cannon damage mechanics, and unless they start to tweak them it is not possible for matches to last that long, UNLESS we can have the single objective map and the mechanics work different on them (I haven't actually tested them).
MCC missiles and null cannons do ~500 damage per second to somebody and MCCs have ~2.3 million HP. That means if you have JUST the enemy MCC on you and ONE Null cannon half of the time (750 HP/s note: it would be splitting its damage with the other MCC) then it would take about 51 minutes for your or your enemies MCC to go down.
So there is no way to stall and reinforce as far as I know. |
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Posted - 2013.03.15 16:49:00 -
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CCP FoxFour wrote: The MCC's shoot each other as well yea?
They do. MCC HP starts to go down as soon as you start a battle.
I edited for MCC only damage (76 minutes total time). But you can really mitigate for a stall fast.
But It looks possible to go over an hour now that he brought that up and coders probably should figure out what that will do. |
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Posted - 2013.03.15 16:51:00 -
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Garrett Blacknova wrote:My point there was that if the attackers control the battle so well they can keep the defenders away from the NULL Cannons and not have to cap any themselves, they could drag out the battle WAY past an hour...
If they tried to use that strategy, that's 5-6 people they'd probably have at each objective, and is pretty easy to over power. Like I said, all you would need to do is have 8-9 minutes worth of time any objective is hacked for the game to be under an hour with MCC damage. But your instincts were correct that it looks POSSIBLE to make it last a bit over an hour. |
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Posted - 2013.03.15 17:04:00 -
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CCP FoxFour wrote:Garrett Blacknova wrote:My point there was that if the attackers control the battle so well they can keep the defenders away from the NULL Cannons and not have to cap any themselves, they could drag out the battle WAY past an hour... I guess if they wanted to. If they are controlling it that well though the defenders are probably going to stop fighting at the 100 lost clone count. I kind of expect some of the really good corporations baiting the defenders into fighting so they lose more than 100 clones.
I was thinking about though, and if as an attacker you knew you were going to lose, you could still 'win' with extremely cheap militia fits, and doing as much damage as you could especially if the other team brought out plenty of proto gear and vehicles. You COULD essentially force a pyhhric victory as their loot would hopefully not be worth next to anything, and the damage you inflict on them could be equal to what you lost.
This would still be very difficult as every kill the defender (winner) gets nets them 50k at least, and every loss you get is basically -100k+. IOW you'd have to do more than one of the following:
1) Die an optimal amount of times preventing them from collecting your biomass and clones. 2) Kill more defender material in isk than the clone worth of the attackers. 3) Attack in such a way that you are preventing them from another more crucial supporting manuever of another district. |
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Posted - 2013.03.15 17:26:00 -
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Garrett Blacknova wrote:Assuming that 100 clones is enough to defend might also be a liability with teams frequently being cloned out in Skirmish right now - and we have more than 100 clones per side in the current iteration of the mode.
If someone attacks with 200 or more clones, your 100 will turn into a TDM where you're outnumbered 2:1. Good luck?
Well the liability with having less than 100 clones as a defender is that the attacker has 2 ways of winning (clones or MCC). If you have more than 100 clones, as soon as you lose your 100th, if it looks close, it'd be better to hide than lose everything. Then you get one more round, can be supported by friendly clones, and maybe have allies counter attack a hostile/aggresor district. That would only apply though if you have a way of sending more clones to the district and/or you know what kind of follow-up attack you could face.
I really encourage people to read the rules/strategy of the game diplomacy as a lot of supporting/blocking/defending/attacking sorts of strategies will be similar.
One example would be that you could organize a chain of more efficient attacks so that your enemy 5 jumps away, could be degraded by an ally who is in his system. But in order for that player to be confident in his attack, you attack his most likely threat that is 2 jumps from you and 3 jumps from him. |
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Posted - 2013.03.15 17:36:00 -
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Garrett Blacknova wrote: If you get down to those last clones and hide, the enemy victory by MCC will clone you out, because you only had 100 clones, and a territory that's dropped to 0 clones reverts to unclaimed or falls into the attacker's hands when they win.
I meant if you had 105 clones as defender, they killed 100, then you have 5 left. Those 5 hide. |
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Posted - 2013.03.15 18:05:00 -
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Will you buy clones from
A) a disembodied genolution contact and not have to transport them, but just 'claim' a district with them on day one?
Or
B) will there be seeded stations you buy clones from, that then suffer movement penalties for getting clones to target districts? |
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Posted - 2013.03.15 18:13:00 -
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Telcontar Dunedain wrote:I'm concerned that the economics won't back the amount of warfare I want, Beers has a good thread going on some of those bits. https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=63845&find=unreadOne of the tunables is the Looting which comes from the battlefield. I think this is what should be tuned upwards first and foremost. Looting gear directly from the field as an income stream has all kind of secondary benefits and would help the game a lot.
I was enveloping the economics here, and wont disclose what I've figured out so far, but what it sounds like is that much of the profit will be split between eve and dust with maximal profit coming from people who can tie both together the best.
But basically the lowsec Dust economy will only grow IF both A) more money is being brought in than destroyed, which is especially more easy if B) more clones are being produced from planets than are being lost to death and bought from Genolution.
IOW : Genolution purchases are isk sinks. MCC clone losses are unrecoverable resource sinks. Player kills by winning teams are a conservative resource loss, but isk fountain. Planetary clone production are resource fountains. Genolution clone sales are resource sinks, but isk fountains. |
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Posted - 2013.03.15 18:55:00 -
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trollsroyce wrote:CCP FoxFour wrote:ChromeBreaker wrote:trollsroyce wrote:Contest this thought, please: GÇó ringers are allowed GÇó you don't need to flip districts for mother corp GÇó mother corp just means the ringer community for split corps
GÇó results in that splitting corp ONLY expands possibilities, gives more attack chances, and speeds clone production to attack. why flip them for one corp? make a swam of corps, its even thief and disband proof.
You cant transfer clones between corps so each would be even until one produces more. 1 corp with 1 district (no upgrades) can attack once every 3 days (40Cl a day, 100Cl needed). 1 corp with 3 districts can attack everyday with spare. Its economically and tactically better to have more districts as you can attack, and enforce your own districts, more effectively. But you need to have more districts which is how this convo started It is only an advantage on day one where you can buy lots of starter packs and try and take a bunch of unowned districts. Once things get past that initial flash point it will be far better to be in one corporation and having the ability to transfer clones between districts. How about a big corp that makes a lot of 1 person corps and uses them to generate more ringer fights? Consider this carefully, because creating ton of corps to use as boost (not detaching anything from main) seems pretty powerful to me, especially since all of those corps are just extra clones for the main corp use. Sure, on another corp, but extra clones still.
If you are talking 'ringer' fights based on clones purchased from genolution, the clones themselves will effectively cost 2x those that come produced from districts. So (depending on the cost of your total attack) Genolution based attacks will be more expensive than district based attacks. |
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Posted - 2013.03.17 23:20:00 -
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I think a big part of the balance will be how much salvage returns back to you. If two teams lost the same amount in clones (100 per side) and in salvage 2 million each, then the winning team would have lost 5 million in clones. They would have to get back in salvage 10 million even. In other words each clone they lost/killed would have to be wearing 100k+ isk suits in addition they could also lose some vehicles if they killed some. |
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