DUST Search - What causes the blue shield, and what is the reccommended network bandwidth.

Orenji Jiji wrote:

Great post, Garret, only one nitpick.

Garrett Blacknova wrote:

If you fire, and on your screen, you have a clear shot, but before the server received your notification that you pulled the trigger, the enemy's movement data is transmitted telling the server that they're already around the corner. Because the server sees you shooting at nothing instead of the enemy, your shots won't connect.

I had this happen with a camper, who did not move at all -- sitting in a corner, scoped in. I lined up for the execution, went into ADS on my SMG and let it rip. I've spat full SMG mag locally and then *had to reload*, the game was running smoothly and I monitored the connection -- no breakups, the ping was always below 40ms. I had no stops, moonwalking, glitching, tearing -- nothing -- everything looked fine on my end. My squad member confirmed location and lack of movement of my prey.

Then no damage registered, I've raged over comms and had my squad tell me that I am not firing at all! I pondered this while I reloaded. Five seconds later my red was already aware of us and I shot him dead, just as he turned back to me and damage started registering again. My squad mates did not have this problem at and one of them was on the same connection. Reiterating: they were getting and dealing damage throughout that weird scene, but from/to other targets. This includes the person sharing my connection. It looked like the server just dropped my actions for a small amount of time, while it informed me about everything around me no problem.

Yeah, I know that UDP and routing is complicated, I know you will always blame local WiFi first, but it's moot. The server is buggy. CCP should probably get external parties with experience to investigate, if they haven't already.

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Don Von Hulio UnReaL. 129	Posted - 2013.03.13 10:05:00 - [1] - Quote What causes the blue shield glitch. Is it my network? Their network? The server? So many times have i shot at someone with an AR and pelt the crap out of them to only deal a very small, minute amount of damage or none at all... while they strip me of 500 health in half a second. Most of the time i will be shooting at someone and their health wont budge until about the 20th round if i land all of them. Then at 25-30 it will jump from 75%-100% to 0 and they die... Other times i can empty a whole clip on a person and think i missed every shot and then they die as im reloading? Then there are times when im facing off with another Assault suit user and they are moving uber fast back an forth side to side and even though im getting hit markers nothing happens to their health whatsoever. Again, is this my network causing the enemies to appear to be micro teleporting/jittering across my screen, or is it their network? I notice this to when people are running adjacent to me and they appear to be rubber banding. I have broadband. I dont know what my ping is to the servers, i wish i could tell. My DL is 2.3mb, and upload is .5mb. If this isnt sufficient enough to reliably play this game, i would like to know now so i can stop putting time into it and move on to another game thats stable with what i have. There are times where it seems to be going smoothly and working as intended. But most of the time i have to deal with this crap, and the feeling of being cheated every time i suffer a death. This type of stuff is actually what made me quit BF3. Its funny killing enemies around corners, or getting a kill a whole 10 seconds later when someone takes cover... when you are the one doing the killing.
Invading Oren Mannar Focused Warfare Gallente Federation 12	Posted - 2013.03.13 10:15:00 - [2] - Quote It's even worse when facing scouts in close range especially when they're wielding a shotgun. Every bullet counts there so a 1-2 sec inv really ruins it. Good thing is it doesn't happen very often but it's still there.
DJINN Marauder Hellstorm Inc League of Infamy 312	Posted - 2013.03.13 10:34:00 - [3] - Quote Have you tried reinstalling?
dabest2evadoit7 Cyberdyne Systems and Technology The Revenant Order 47	Posted - 2013.03.13 10:38:00 - [4] - Quote I have experienced this too. Not sure how to fix though.
Sir Petersen Valhalla Nord 113	Posted - 2013.03.13 10:41:00 - [5] - Quote This has bin happening a lot for me in the past days. Pretty annoying..
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 2008	Posted - 2013.03.13 10:52:00 - [6] - Quote Don Von Hulio wrote: What causes the blue shield glitch. Is it my network? Their network? The server? The simple answer to this is... Is it your network? Yes. Is it theirs? No. Is it the server? Yes. The best guess so far is that the game runs server-side hit detection. This means that when you shoot, your facing and the relevant weapon data is transmitted to the server, and it calculates whether or not you hit anything based on the locations of targets ACCORDING TO THE SERVER. If you fire, and on your screen, you have a clear shot, but before the server received your notification that you pulled the trigger, the enemy's movement data is transmitted telling the server that they're already around the corner. Because the server sees you shooting at nothing instead of the enemy, your shots won't connect. MOST of the considerations are based around your connection to the server. As long as your download is above 1.5Mbps, and upload is at least 0.5Mpbs, you're USUALLY fine for those considerations. Higher is better, but not a major concern. The biggest thing you need to look at is PING. And that varies significantly based on the system you're connecting to. THEIR connection, and their location in the world compared with your own, make more difference than how good your connection to a local server is. If you have something like a 20ms ping to your ISP, that's pretty good. But if you're in America (whether USa or anywhere else in the two continents), and you're connecting to a server in Europe, your ping will leap to anything upwards of 300 in some cases. With a ping of 500ms, that means you have a half-second delay on your actions being sent to the server, processed, and the results coming back to you. If you see someone and shoot in such a scenario, and they duck back into cover fast enough, your shot will hit nothing but air. Because people NEED immediate feedback, the game displays the shot as soon as you pull the trigger, but that isn't when the results of that shot are calculated. The blue flash is a visual display of your shots hitting a target based on what's on YOUR screen at the time you're pulling the trigger, and NOT on the server verifying that damage. If an enemy is lagging, however, this SHOULDN'T affect your shots. If you're running with a 20ms ping to the game server, you have a 0.02s delay. You're not going to be able to see/measure/complain about that. No matter what the other guy's ping is, the server will be telling you "this is where I think the target is" immediately, and if you shoot in that location, the server will still be saying that you're right, and the target will be in your sights server-side as well. You can get a good estimate of the delay you're going to be experiencing by pulling the trigger on your weapon and watching your ammo count - that's also tracked server-side (this safeguards the game with hacks). When you shoot, the delay between pulling the trigger and seeing the ammo count drop should help you to gauge how far you'll have to lead your shots.
Beld Errmon UnReaL. 521	Posted - 2013.03.13 11:26:00 - [7] - Quote Garrett Blacknova wrote: Don Von Hulio wrote: What causes the blue shield glitch. Is it my network? Their network? The server? If you have something like a 20ms ping to your ISP, that's pretty good. But if you're in America (whether USa or anywhere else in the two continents), and you're connecting to a server in Europe, your ping will leap to anything upwards of 300 in some cases. That would be true only if he is playing on an EU server, there are multiple battleservers around the world.
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 2008	Posted - 2013.03.13 11:41:00 - [8] - Quote Beld Errmon wrote: Garrett Blacknova wrote: Don Von Hulio wrote: What causes the blue shield glitch. Is it my network? Their network? The server? If you have something like a 20ms ping to your ISP, that's pretty good. But if you're in America (whether USa or anywhere else in the two continents), and you're connecting to a server in Europe, your ping will leap to anything upwards of 300 in some cases. That would be true only if he is playing on an EU server, there are multiple battleservers around the world. My point was that no matter where in the world you are, there's a chance that you'll end up on a server that DOESN'T give you a great ping, even though you have a good internet connection. Hence why it's as much about the server as it is about your connection. Getting connected to a server you have a bad connection to negates the fact that you have an awesome connection, and having a bad connection will mean you still have a bad connection even if the server is just up the road from you.
J Lav Lost-Legion 32	Posted - 2013.03.13 11:56:00 - [9] - Quote Invading Oren wrote: Good thing is it doesn't happen very often but it's still there. Umm, every game is not very often? The above, looooong explanation is a fancy way of saying lag. However you can lag-shoot to compensate for that. In this case, lag-shooting does nothing, and the interface is giving hit markers. One possible explanation is that you are using your weapon at the furthest extent of its range, in which case it deals very little to no damage. Are your AR operation and sharpshooter skills levelled up?
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 2010	Posted - 2013.03.13 12:12:00 - [10] - Quote J Lav wrote: Invading Oren wrote: Good thing is it doesn't happen very often but it's still there. Umm, every game is not very often? The above, looooong explanation is a fancy way of saying lag. However you can lag-shoot to compensate for that. In this case, lag-shooting does nothing, and the interface is giving hit markers. One possible explanation is that you are using your weapon at the furthest extent of its range, in which case it deals very little to no damage. Are your AR operation and sharpshooter skills levelled up? If it happens every game, then I'm sorry tobe the bringer of bad news, but the problem is probably at your end.

Himiko Kuronaga SyNergy Gaming 23	Posted - 2013.03.13 12:16:00 - [11] - Quote There are some major redundancies in the hit detection that make it seem unplayably bad at times. Lets use an early FPS multiplayer example most people are familiar with.... counter-strike. Hit detection was done server side, and character movement was handled by the client. By default, your weapon would fire on the client side and you wouldn't feel any lag, but you could actually activate a console command to turn off that illusion and see when your weapon was actually firing according to the server. Server side hit detection with a client side firing illusion, combined with client side character movement compensation which respected the "true" shots when the console command to dispel the illusion was activated, ended up making one of the best netcodes for any FPS out there. You see, server side hit detection isn't the problem. It's the incompatible formula. Right now in Dust, you have (GLITCHY) server side hit detection on all weapons. You don't have client-side character movement compensation though, so characters are constantly jinking and janking around. Weapons that spray, like the AR or HMG, fire off on the client side and use the "illusion" of instantaneous fire. Weapons that don't, such as the Burst HMG, Mass Driver, Forge Gun, etc do things more on the server side. The redundancy comes in when, with a Burst HMG, for example, you hit the fire button, there is a delay, then you fire, and if the game is lagging there is yet another delay (!?), and then the ammo counter goes down to signify when the shot actually took place. There is absolutely no reasonable explaination for why two delays is necessary. You are either showing the weapon firing on the server ONCE, or you're showing the client firing instantly. If you were firing the AR it would look more like you just fired, and if it was lagging there would be a delay and then the ammo counter would go down. So certain weapons are, by nature, infinitely more difficult to use in a laggy environment because they have literally twice the lag attached to them. The AR, ironically, is not one of them. It makes no sense and it's just bad code. Why are weapons using inconsistent netcode to begin with? All that does is confuse the player as to how he is supposed to compensate for lag unless he has spent a ridiculous amount of time wrapping his head around every weapon in the game at different stages of lag. It also messes up balance because no matter what someone with a faultily coded weapon does, his trigger finger will always be twice as slow as someone with an automatic due to that redundancy.
Orenji Jiji Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS. 13	Posted - 2013.03.13 12:36:00 - [12] - Quote Great post, Garret, only one nitpick. Garrett Blacknova wrote: If you fire, and on your screen, you have a clear shot, but before the server received your notification that you pulled the trigger, the enemy's movement data is transmitted telling the server that they're already around the corner. Because the server sees you shooting at nothing instead of the enemy, your shots won't connect. I had this happen with a camper, who did not move at all -- sitting in a corner, scoped in. I lined up for the execution, went into ADS on my SMG and let it rip. I've spat full SMG mag locally and then had to reload, the game was running smoothly and I monitored the connection -- no breakups, the ping was always below 40ms. I had no stops, moonwalking, glitching, tearing -- nothing -- everything looked fine on my end. My squad member confirmed location and lack of movement of my prey. Then no damage registered, I've raged over comms and had my squad tell me that I am not firing at all! I pondered this while I reloaded. Five seconds later my red was already aware of us and I shot him dead, just as he turned back to me and damage started registering again. My squad mates did not have this problem at and one of them was on the same connection. Reiterating: they were getting and dealing damage throughout that weird scene, but from/to other targets. This includes the person sharing my connection. It looked like the server just dropped my actions for a small amount of time, while it informed me about everything around me no problem. Yeah, I know that UDP and routing is complicated, I know you will always blame local WiFi first, but it's moot. The server is buggy. CCP should probably get external parties with experience to investigate, if they haven't already.
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 2011	Posted - 2013.03.13 12:44:00 - [13] - Quote Orenji Jiji wrote: Great post, Garret, only one nitpick. Garrett Blacknova wrote: If you fire, and on your screen, you have a clear shot, but before the server received your notification that you pulled the trigger, the enemy's movement data is transmitted telling the server that they're already around the corner. Because the server sees you shooting at nothing instead of the enemy, your shots won't connect. I had this happen with a camper, who did not move at all -- sitting in a corner, scoped in. I lined up for the execution, went into ADS on my SMG and let it rip. I've spat full SMG mag locally and then had to reload, the game was running smoothly and I monitored the connection -- no breakups, the ping was always below 40ms. I had no stops, moonwalking, glitching, tearing -- nothing -- everything looked fine on my end. My squad member confirmed location and lack of movement of my prey. Then no damage registered, I've raged over comms and had my squad tell me that I am not firing at all! I pondered this while I reloaded. Five seconds later my red was already aware of us and I shot him dead, just as he turned back to me and damage started registering again. My squad mates did not have this problem at and one of them was on the same connection. Reiterating: they were getting and dealing damage throughout that weird scene, but from/to other targets. This includes the person sharing my connection. It looked like the server just dropped my actions for a small amount of time, while it informed me about everything around me no problem. Yeah, I know that UDP and routing is complicated, I know you will always blame local WiFi first, but it's moot. The server is buggy. CCP should probably get external parties with experience to investigate, if they haven't already. There are legitimate hit detection issues where people will be registered (for no apparent reason) as being in a location other than where other players see them for hit detection purposes. Usually this results in both you and the other player being unable to hit one another until the glitched player moves. No idea what causes it, but in the majority of cases, it works both ways. And while I don't know for sure if this is the problem, I know some games have trouble when receiving data from multiple devices on a single connection if they share the same IP address (which they usually do). EDIT: I agree that there are bugs that CCP might need help to fix, but they've hired ex-DICE staff for exactly that reason already.
Invading Oren Mannar Focused Warfare Gallente Federation 12	Posted - 2013.03.13 13:02:00 - [14] - Quote J Lav wrote: Invading Oren wrote: Good thing is it doesn't happen very often but it's still there. Umm, every game is not very often? The above, looooong explanation is a fancy way of saying lag. However you can lag-shoot to compensate for that. In this case, lag-shooting does nothing, and the interface is giving hit markers. One possible explanation is that you are using your weapon at the furthest extent of its range, in which case it deals very little to no damage. Are your AR operation and sharpshooter skills levelled up? I was talking about close range combat when facing shotgun users. Basically the first bullets have some kind of delay or never register.
Shaszbot Angels of Anarchy AL3XAND3R. 20	Posted - 2013.03.13 13:22:00 - [15] - Quote Himiko Kuronaga wrote: The redundancy comes in when, with a Burst HMG, for example, you hit the fire button, there is a delay, then you fire, and if the game is lagging there is yet another delay (!?), and then the ammo counter goes down to signify when the shot actually took place. There is absolutely no reasonable explaination for why two delays is necessary. You are either showing the weapon firing on the server ONCE, or you're showing the client firing instantly. Don't the HMGs all have a spool-up time before they spew bullets? I think that is your double-redundancy.
Don Von Hulio UnReaL. 129	Posted - 2013.03.13 20:25:00 - [16] - Quote Ah, i will definitely test my ammo count at the start of every game. I didnt know that was tracked server side as well. Would be nice to if i could check my ping to the server with my PC. Anyone know of a way?


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