DUST Search - Thoughts on War points

Hagintora wrote:

Tiluvo wrote:

I agree, to a point, that assaults and other roles that focus on killing enemies could use a WP boost. I can make double or triple what the heavy in my squad makes shooting guys by healing him while he's shooting guys. However, I don't think basing WP on type of enemy killed is the way to go. Dust is a team game at heart, and the rewards should reflect that. Like I suggested above with a bonus for killing enemies that've damaged your teammates, other ideas include:

a bonus for killing enemies who are hacking your team's installations
a bonus for killing AV-equipped enemies within a certain radius of friendly tanks
a bonus for killing enemies within a certain radius of teammates who are hacking
a bonus for killing enemies within a certain distance of teammates who are using repair tools
bonuses for counter-hacking should definitely be implemented, as well as bonuses for repairing vehicles and installations, especially now that tankers seem to target them almost exclusively.

The idea is that the bonuses will encourage people to stay near their comrades and work together to destroy the enemy. I've seen plenty of tankers complain, with good reason, about missing infantry support. But if you get the bonus I suggested above, wouldn't you want to stick around and help?

I agree with all of this, except for the part highlighted above. The initial idea presented was based off of enemy type, but somewhere along the way we switched to Meta Level. Namely your Meta Level versus the enemies. If their Meta Level is higher than yours, then you are taking more of a risk when going up against them. The higher the risk, the higher the reward.

More things giving more points making it more likely that your team mates will stick around and do what they're supposed to because they want the points.

Also this idea could help with the Pub-Stomping issue. Not that anything will ever get rid of it completely. If you're running around in PRO gear, and the enemy is running Starter Fits, you get less points for killing them because they just aren't that much of a challenge. So you can lower your Meta Level by choosing lower ranking fits, and earn more in the way of rewards. Or, keep on as you are and wipe the floor with who ever happens to be unlucky enough to cross your path, but take a hit to your ISK and SP gain.


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Your Absolut End SVER True Blood Unclaimed. 15	Posted - 2013.03.11 20:29:00 - [1] - Quote So lately I'm thinking a lot about how to make the WP more balanced and I would really like to hear different opinins on that. First of all as I understand this game there is a ranking from strong to weak like this going on on this game right now: Heavy>Logi>Assault>Scout, So if so why don't we get special reward for killing different enemy types? I thought maybe about a ranking like this: Heavy=100WP Logi=75WP Assault=50WP Scout=25 WP But I really don't feel a big difference between Logis and Assault, so we could also make it like: Heavy=75WP Logi/Assault=50WP Scout=25WP I think the first variant works great if you think about a Logi/Heavy Team supporting each other, it's much harder to kill the heavy then, just like the Logi, so it should be better rewarder. I'm not quiet sure if such a system could be implemented in the game. With vehicles I think its much harder to rate. I also think there should be higher rewards for destroying a tank, I personally just got support points for a tank, which is I think like 70 or 75 WP so you might get a reward of 150WP for a destroyed tank? I think when it comes to vehicles we have a ranking like this: Dropship>HAV>LAV but I'm not quiet sure, so I'm happy to hear other opinions on the WP reward for destroying enemy vehicles. Personally I would say something like this Dropship:300WP HAV:200WP LAV:150-100WP I think we also need a change in the Kill/Kill-Support stuff. I think there should be a system which defines which player made the most damage to the enemy Infantry/Vehicle and this player should get the kill, but this player has to be alive. If he is dead he just gets the support. It's irritating leaving a heavy with just a little bit armor left to reload when a blueberry rushes in and steals your kill. Especially now in the new ambush mode I think this is a major problem. I would like also to introduce another variation of this system: The enemys armour and shield together equals 100% of the WP. So, the WP-reward for the enemy clone gets split in 2 halfs: 50% shield, 50 %armour, so if Player A and Player B attack 1 heavy, rated like the first introduced system: Player A hits the enemy and Destroys the shield of the tank, aswell as 50% of his armour, he reloads, Player B rushes in, finishes him. Player A gets a reward of 75 WP (100% of shield= 50WP, 50% of armour = 25WP) but won't get the kill for his statistics. Player B receives the kill for destroying the enemy but just gets the rest of the WP so 25 WP. Personally I like the second rating system more than the first, because it looks more balanced for me. We should also get a reward for for rehacking, or protecting our conquered Null-Cannons, as it takes nearly the doubled time to hack a hacked Null-Cannon the reward should be also raised. Because you are defensless for a longer time. I think a fair reward would be 50 Points more, so 170 WP for rehack. Now to enemy equipment: In my opinion its like this: Drop-Uplinks>Nanohives I think so because Drop-Uplinks are a major threat to your team while a nano-hive is not. So destroying a Drop-Uplink should also give you a reward like 40WP and destryoing a Nano-Hive should give you something like 5-10WP. I know this is still a little raw. But I'm open for discussions. My thoughts on the WP-Reward-System are not done to discriminate any kind of player, specification or vehicle, I just tried to rate it like I understand this game right now. I'm really curious on your thoughts to this.
Your Absolut End SVER True Blood Unclaimed. 15	Posted - 2013.03.11 21:13:00 - [2] - Quote Hagintora wrote: It might work in the points you acquired were based on the suit you were wearing at the time of the kill. Scouts are paper thin, so going up against a heavy and winning and could yeild more points (let's say in the way of bonus points) as you technically risked more during that fight. It could also be based on your current weapon loadout as well, so that weapons like sniper rifles would (which do large amounts of damage) would be taken into account. This would prevent people from just running with a Scout Suit and SR and trying to rack up large WP rewards. Additionally, you could have it also based on the overall level of equipment being used by the opponent. So if someone is running around in PRO gear, and gets gunned down by someone using MLT gear, the MLT user could recieve bonus points for taking down the more dangerous opponent. While I don't think the OP's suggestion is neccessarily the right way to go, I do think that WP's awarded for kills should have more things taken into account. Having Risk Versus Reward as a game defining mechanic is great, and i think applying that mentallity to combat could be a very interesting dynamic. If a character is running around the field in ** fits, but still handing his opponents their ***, I don't see a problem in the gaming giving a little extra reward for the extra risk that he takes. This is exactly the main idea behind my thougts, you have different risks in this game, I see it mostly from the assault site, for I am playing this the most. So a scout is normally no really threat so it should not be as good rewarded than fighting a heavy for example, I tried to get all this gamemechanics in a quiet simple way to a fair balance of WP rewards. I like to keep things simple.
Your Absolut End SVER True Blood Unclaimed. 15	Posted - 2013.03.11 21:35:00 - [3] - Quote Hagintora wrote: Your Absolut End wrote: This is exactly the main idea behind my thougts, you have different risks in this game, I see it mostly from the assault site, for I am playing this the most. So a scout is normally no really threat so it should not be as good rewarded than fighting a heavy for example, I tried to get all this gamemechanics in a quiet simple way to a fair balance of WP rewards. I like to keep things simple. Unfortunately, a system like this can't really be simple. Or, more accurately, it can be detrimental if it is too simple. As I pointed out, just basing the WP's earned off suit types would mean that Snipers running Scout suits would be the highest earners of WP's in game, and while I usually do play snipers and Shotty-Scouts, I can see how this would unbalance the game. Starting simple is great, but I think it would be benefitial to come up with as many scenarios as possible to see how that would affect the WP's earned. So off the top of my head (and based on what we've already mentioned), you could have a system that would these things into account: Suit Type: In terms of Bonus Points-Scout>Assault>Logi>Heavy Weapon Type: Not sure on this one but maybe something like-Lower Base DPS of Weapon>Higher Base DPS of Weapon Tier Level: Lvl 1>Lvl 2>Lvl 3>Lvl 4>Lvl 5 Or perhaps have the entire thing based on the average Meta Level of your fitting versus the average Meta Level of the opponent. If the Opponent has a higher overall Meta Level you get more points, if it's lower then you get less points. Right, I think the meta level might be the easiest way to find out how a player is fitted. On the other hand what do you think about the skills? You know, there are skills which boost you weapon damage 10% and others which boost your armour and shield 25% which might be nice to include to the whole WP-reward-system aswell.
Your Absolut End SVER True Blood Unclaimed. 15	Posted - 2013.03.11 22:13:00 - [4] - Quote Hagintora wrote: Your Absolut End wrote: Right, I think the meta level might be the easiest way to find out how a player is fitted. On the other hand what do you think about the skills? You know, there are skills which boost you weapon damage 10% and others which boost your armour and shield 25% which might be nice to include to the whole WP-reward-system aswell. Skills absolutely need to be taken into account, you are right about that. Even running Starter Fits for an entire match, the guy with 5 mil SP's is at much higher level that guy who just started a character. I'm thinking that skill levels would add to your overall Meta Level, maybe have each skill level (1-5) add a .1 or .2 to you Meta Level. So if you have 15 total skills and they're all at Level 3 you would add 4.5 to 9 to you Meta Level. I'm leaning more towards the .1 right now. So even running Starter Fits you would at a Meta Level of 5.5, instead of Metal Level 1. I still think weapon type, or at least DPS should be factored in somehow as well. Again I'm going to use the Sniper as an example (although you could also use heavies as example here, but I haven't played as a heavy yet, so I'll stick with what I know); A Meta Level 1 Sniper can still take down a much higher Meta Level [insert fit here] due to its high damage. The system does need to be balanced in order to accomodate the different playstyles, so that no single fit type can really be considered the "best". damned snipers, ruining everything again :D But you are right. The idea with skills raising the meta level is pretty nice, this can make things much easier. On the sniperrifles: thats a pretty tough one, because meta level don't really matters for them like you said. One option would be absolute no special reward for snipers, which would be queit unfair, on the other hand they have a quiet unrisky life which could be a reason for no extra WP for higher tier enemies. I really have no idea how to handle them.
Your Absolut End SVER True Blood Unclaimed. 16	Posted - 2013.03.11 22:56:00 - [5] - Quote Hagintora wrote: Your Absolut End wrote: damned snipers, ruining everything again :D But you are right. The idea with skills raising the meta level is pretty nice, this can make things much easier. On the sniperrifles: thats a pretty tough one, because meta level don't really matters for them like you said. One option would be absolute no special reward for snipers, which would be queit unfair, on the other hand they have a quiet unrisky life which could be a reason for no extra WP for higher tier enemies. I really have no idea how to handle them. Thinking about it, I'm leaning towards DPS/100 then adding the result to your Metal Level. So taking the Sniper Rifle example if you have a SR that does 199.5 damage with a 50 RPM (I can't remember the name of the specific SR that does this, but it's in there) then the DPS would be 239.4. So 239.4/100 would be 2.39 (rounding to the second ecimal place). Then you would add 2.39 to the Meta Level. So you would have the average Meta Level of the equipment, plus .1 per skill level, plus DPS/100 would equal the total Metal Level of the fit being used. Now the only thing to decide is how many bonus points a Merc would recieve based on relative Meta Levels. I think the base WP for a kill should stay at 50 WP, so if I have a Meta level of 5 and kill a enemy merc of the same meta level the reward should be 50 WP, 1 Meta Level should stand for at least 10 WP, but if I am at Meta Level 5 killing a Merc with Meta Level 1 I should get less WP than for an equal kill, but we should not go under 20 WP for a kill, what do you think about this?
Your Absolut End SVER True Blood Unclaimed. 25	Posted - 2013.03.12 20:33:00 - [6] - Quote So 1. I am not complaining about the WP System because I don't get enough SP, I hit the SP Cap 2 days ago. 2. Nothing in this topic was meant as an offense against anyone. All I am trying to do is getting a nice discussion together about the War-Point-System. I think for sure there are great players with us which also right now get huge amont of WP, but I'm talking here about the problems I see for casual gamers, because I think the WP right now really don't mark who actually did a great job, right now you can be farming an amount x of noobs and get your huge war points, nice job, please come again. But the WP is one of the major things which make Dust what it is/should be, so I think the WP System right now is broken because it don't really shows who did a great job, it just shows who did the most. Which don't have to be the same. If person X is attacking the enemy team but doesn't get the finishing bullet on several enemys he will not get the reward he deserves, while person Y, aiming just for the guys with low health gets the doubled amount of WP as person X who recently did the major job. So person X gets a lot less WP than person Y which in no way shows of who did a great game. And this is just one example. Why shouldn't I be extra rewarded for killing someone with Militia Gear who rolls in Protos? Why souldn't I be rewarded for destroying Uplinks?Nano-Hives? So this system is broken IMO and we as Beta-Testers have to show of flaws like that. Just remember, this is about fairness, not about what works for you. And yes, this is a problem I often face in matches, so I am personaly insulted. But I am not crying about this, I just show of "look CCP, here is a problem" which I think is my job as a beta tester. If I am wrong with that explain it to me please.
Your Absolut End SVER True Blood Unclaimed. 27	Posted - 2013.03.12 22:03:00 - [7] - Quote Hagintora wrote: Tiluvo wrote: I agree, to a point, that assaults and other roles that focus on killing enemies could use a WP boost. I can make double or triple what the heavy in my squad makes shooting guys by healing him while he's shooting guys. However, I don't think basing WP on type of enemy killed is the way to go. Dust is a team game at heart, and the rewards should reflect that. Like I suggested above with a bonus for killing enemies that've damaged your teammates, other ideas include: a bonus for killing enemies who are hacking your team's installations a bonus for killing AV-equipped enemies within a certain radius of friendly tanks a bonus for killing enemies within a certain radius of teammates who are hacking a bonus for killing enemies within a certain distance of teammates who are using repair tools bonuses for counter-hacking should definitely be implemented, as well as bonuses for repairing vehicles and installations, especially now that tankers seem to target them almost exclusively. The idea is that the bonuses will encourage people to stay near their comrades and work together to destroy the enemy. I've seen plenty of tankers complain, with good reason, about missing infantry support. But if you get the bonus I suggested above, wouldn't you want to stick around and help? I agree with all of this, except for the part highlighted above. The initial idea presented was based off of enemy type, but somewhere along the way we switched to Meta Level. Namely your Meta Level versus the enemies. If their Meta Level is higher than yours, then you are taking more of a risk when going up against them. The higher the risk, the higher the reward. More things giving more points making it more likely that your team mates will stick around and do what they're supposed to because they want the points. Also this idea could help with the Pub-Stomping issue. Not that anything will ever get rid of it completely. If you're running around in PRO gear, and the enemy is running Starter Fits, you get less points for killing them because they just aren't that much of a challenge. So you can lower your Meta Level by choosing lower ranking fits, and earn more in the way of rewards. Or, keep on as you are and wipe the floor with who ever happens to be unlucky enough to cross your path, but take a hit to your ISK and SP gain. Yep, your ideas about this Meta-Levels is very awesome. Maybe once this could be included in the game, and the player base spreads MEta-Level could also be a nice wy to fit better chalenging teams together, so the point you mentioned about the pub-stomps will happen even less. I think we are on a pretty good way with this topic right now, I would love to see some DEV feedback here.