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Hagintora Chatelain Rapid Response Gallente Federation 111	Posted - 2013.03.11 21:01:00 - [1] - Quote It might work in the points you acquired were based on the suit you were wearing at the time of the kill. Scouts are paper thin, so going up against a heavy and winning and could yeild more points (let's say in the way of bonus points) as you technically risked more during that fight. It could also be based on your current weapon loadout as well, so that weapons like sniper rifles would (which do large amounts of damage) would be taken into account. This would prevent people from just running with a Scout Suit and SR and trying to rack up large WP rewards. Additionally, you could have it also based on the overall level of equipment being used by the opponent. So if someone is running around in PRO gear, and gets gunned down by someone using MLT gear, the MLT user could recieve bonus points for taking down the more dangerous opponent. While I don't think the OP's suggestion is neccessarily the right way to go, I do think that WP's awarded for kills should have more things taken into account. Having Risk Versus Reward as a game defining mechanic is great, and i think applying that mentallity to combat could be a very interesting dynamic. If a character is running around the field in ** fits, but still handing his opponents their ***, I don't see a problem in the gaming giving a little extra reward for the extra risk that he takes.
Hagintora Chatelain Rapid Response Gallente Federation 111	Posted - 2013.03.11 21:30:00 - [2] - Quote Your Absolut End wrote: This is exactly the main idea behind my thougts, you have different risks in this game, I see it mostly from the assault site, for I am playing this the most. So a scout is normally no really threat so it should not be as good rewarded than fighting a heavy for example, I tried to get all this gamemechanics in a quiet simple way to a fair balance of WP rewards. I like to keep things simple. Unfortunately, a system like this can't really be simple. Or, more accurately, it can be detrimental if it is too simple. As I pointed out, just basing the WP's earned off suit types would mean that Snipers running Scout suits would be the highest earners of WP's in game, and while I usually do play snipers and Shotty-Scouts, I can see how this would unbalance the game. Starting simple is great, but I think it would be benefitial to come up with as many scenarios as possible to see how that would affect the WP's earned. So off the top of my head (and based on what we've already mentioned), you could have a system that would these things into account: Suit Type: In terms of Bonus Points-Scout>Assault>Logi>Heavy Weapon Type: Not sure on this one but maybe something like-Lower Base DPS of Weapon>Higher Base DPS of Weapon Tier Level: Lvl 1>Lvl 2>Lvl 3>Lvl 4>Lvl 5 Or perhaps have the entire thing based on the average Meta Level of your fitting versus the average Meta Level of the opponent. If the Opponent has a higher overall Meta Level you get more points, if it's lower then you get less points.
Hagintora Chatelain Rapid Response Gallente Federation 111	Posted - 2013.03.11 21:53:00 - [3] - Quote Your Absolut End wrote: Right, I think the meta level might be the easiest way to find out how a player is fitted. On the other hand what do you think about the skills? You know, there are skills which boost you weapon damage 10% and others which boost your armour and shield 25% which might be nice to include to the whole WP-reward-system aswell. Skills absolutely need to be taken into account, you are right about that. Even running Starter Fits for an entire match, the guy with 5 mil SP's is at much higher level that guy who just started a character. I'm thinking that skill levels would add to your overall Meta Level, maybe have each skill level (1-5) add a .1 or .2 to you Meta Level. So if you have 15 total skills and they're all at Level 3 you would add 4.5 to 9 to you Meta Level. I'm leaning more towards the .1 right now. So even running Starter Fits you would at a Meta Level of 5.5, instead of Metal Level 1. I still think weapon type, or at least DPS should be factored in somehow as well. Again I'm going to use the Sniper as an example (although you could also use heavies as example here, but I haven't played as a heavy yet, so I'll stick with what I know); A Meta Level 1 Sniper can still take down a much higher Meta Level [insert fit here] due to its high damage. The system does need to be balanced in order to accomodate the different playstyles, so that no single fit type can really be considered the "best".
Hagintora Chatelain Rapid Response Gallente Federation 111	Posted - 2013.03.11 22:32:00 - [4] - Quote Your Absolut End wrote: damned snipers, ruining everything again :D But you are right. The idea with skills raising the meta level is pretty nice, this can make things much easier. On the sniperrifles: thats a pretty tough one, because meta level don't really matters for them like you said. One option would be absolute no special reward for snipers, which would be queit unfair, on the other hand they have a quiet unrisky life which could be a reason for no extra WP for higher tier enemies. I really have no idea how to handle them. Thinking about it, I'm leaning towards DPS/100 then adding the result to your Metal Level. So taking the Sniper Rifle example if you have a SR that does 199.5 damage with a 50 RPM (I can't remember the name of the specific SR that does this, but it's in there) then the DPS would be 239.4. So 239.4/100 would be 2.39 (rounding to the second ecimal place). Then you would add 2.39 to the Meta Level. So you would have the average Meta Level of the equipment, plus .1 per skill level, plus DPS/100 would equal the total Metal Level of the fit being used. Now the only thing to decide is how many bonus points a Merc would recieve based on relative Meta Levels.
Hagintora Chatelain Rapid Response Gallente Federation 112	Posted - 2013.03.12 00:08:00 - [5] - Quote Your Absolut End wrote: I think the base WP for a kill should stay at 50 WP, so if I have a Meta level of 5 and kill a enemy merc of the same meta level the reward should be 50 WP, 1 Meta Level should stand for at least 10 WP, but if I am at Meta Level 5 killing a Merc with Meta Level 1 I should get less WP than for an equal kill, but we should not go under 20 WP for a kill, what do you think about this? I would keep the minimum at 25 for a kill, so it would effectively cut the reward in half. But remember that the Meta Level can be higher than 5 using this system; There are weapons and equipment that can have a Meta Level of 9 (or higher), as well as the fact that we're adding in DPS and skills to the mix. That being said, I don't think that there should be a hard cap on high the bonus can be, as the greater the risk you take the greater your reward should be. For vehicles I was thinking something like this: LAV (Ground or Aerial): Base Meta Level1.5 MAV (Ground or Aerial): Base Meta Level2 HAV (Ground or Aerial): Base Meta Level*2.5 Again add in skills (though this time just vehicle relevant skills, still at 0.1 per skill level). With the base WP's per kill still being 50, that would put LAV at a base of 75 WP's, and HAV's at a base of 125 WP's. So a Meta Level 5 Tank would earn 625 WP's plus however many WP's for the Merc's inside when it was destroyed. So the math would be (5 (for the Meta Level)X2.5 (Multiplier for HAV)) X50 (base per kill)=625. CCP might ahve to adjust the WP cost for orbital's using this system, but I really don't see a problem with taking out 4 or 5 high Meta Level tanks earning you an OB.
Hagintora Chatelain Rapid Response Gallente Federation 112	Posted - 2013.03.12 02:10:00 - [6] - Quote Django Quik wrote: WP is fine, don't touch that. The reward you get for taking down harder and more expensive enemies is more isk and as you level up and SP becomes less important (and thus WP also, as they are directly tied), the isk earned from harder kills will become more important. As for your WP per damage done idea - the problem here is that players can regen some shield and/or armour and then how would this calculation be worked out? more than 100% kill WP? What if 5 people are shooting the same guy at the same time? Do they all average 20% kill WP? Well it was my understanding that SP and ISK are tied directly to WP's, so the higher WP's you recieve in a match the higher SP and ISK rewarded after the match. If this is not the case then WP's kind of lose all meaning. If it is the case then there wouldn't really be a change as you would still be rewarded ISK long after you stopped caring about SP's. As for the WP per damage idea, I'd have be based off of percentage on a one for one basis. So every 1% of damage dealt to an enemy would be equal to 1% of total WP's earned when that enemy dies. If the enemy regens at all (through Shield Recharge, or Armor Repping) then you would lose however many points the enemy regained. So let's take the Scout for instance, it has 100hp in Shields and 90hp in Armor. If you do enough damage to wipe out its shields, then someone else takes the kill shot, then you would recieve about 52% of the total WP's that the Scout would be worth to you (based on Meta Level). If, however, the Scout ran away and its shields recharged to 50hp and then someone got the kill shot, you would only recieve about 26% of total WP's. Since WP's would be earned based on % of damage done, and WP's gained would be based on the opponents Meta Level relevent to yours, it's entirely possible that two different Mercs shooting at the same target could recieve the same amount of WP's.
Hagintora Chatelain Rapid Response Gallente Federation 113	Posted - 2013.03.12 15:30:00 - [7] - Quote KalOfTheRathi wrote: You would be better served by getting WP and not wishing you got more by playing some other FPS. Not to mention the act of writing the entire thing down proves your concept of balance is anything but balanced. Leave it alone CCP. There is nothing to see here. I think you might be confusing the word "balance" for "simplicity", at least in regards to that sentence. If not, by all means explain further. If you don't like this idea simply because you don't like it, I will accept that, as I believe a man is entitled to his opinion. If you think this idea is truly imbalanced, or indeed, game breaking, then please share your thoughts on the matter. An idea can't get any better if no one points out where it is flawed. WP's right now seem kind of useless. If WP's are tied only to SP, then why not have the SP earned for each kill appear on the screen instead. If WP's have no bearing on ISK earned, then you can't really judge a players participation in a match by his WP score, which what I thought that WP's were supposed to do. If this is not the case, please let me know. The current WP system implies that the Starter Fit wearing Merc is just as much of a threat as the PRO gear wearing Merc. It also suggests that the Militia Tank is just as much of a threat as the PRO Tank (it's my understainding that PRO Tanks don't actually exist yet, but you get my point). It's my opinion that there should be some kind of visual clue (either on the HUD during a game, or on the reward screen after), that let's you know that you WHY you're getting rewarded they you are. It's a little wierd for me when I know I've played crap in a match, and gotten an embarrassing amount of WP's, that I reach the reward screen and see that I've earned over 200K ISK (which has happened to me before). It feels like the NPC Corp that I'm working for just felt bad for me (even though I lost the match and probably cost them millions, if not billions, in ISK) and decided to tussle my hair and give me a little bonus to keep my self esteem up. Which is a strange feeling to get when I'm playing a game set in a universe as angsty and back-stabby as New Eden
Hagintora Chatelain Rapid Response Gallente Federation 113	Posted - 2013.03.12 17:45:00 - [8] - Quote Django Quik wrote: 200k isk seems to be pretty much the base contract amount for playing a full game - you only get less if you're in for less than a whole match. If you kill a lot of really expensive gear, you can get 400k or more (though that much is pretty rare even when I'm out tank hunting). WPs are only linked to SP. That is all. The points that appear on the screen are exactly equal to the SP you gain, so everytime you get 50 points for a kill, that is 50 SP. As I previously stated, more isk is rewarded for killing proto and advanced gear. SP is awarded for killing the merc, not destroying the suit he's in. Well I generally suck at FPS games (this one included) so I usually get about 150K-175K. If I hit 200K it's because the gaming gods decided to smile upon me and temporarily grant me the power of Thor. But that's beside the point. WP's can't possibly be linked to SP's on a one for one basis, as you've suggested here. I average about 4500-5000 SP's per match and usually earn less than 1000 WP's. Win or lose it doesn't seem to change. I would like to point out that I rarely hit the weekly cap, and that I don't use Passive or Active Boosters. Now, you might be getting 1000 WP's and 1000 SP's per match, I grant you, but that's probably because you've hit the cap so early in the week in you've forgotten that's it's there. And again, I ask why they don't just replace WP score with SP scores if what you say is actually true? Since WP's would appear to do bugger-all as a an actual game stat or mechanic.
Hagintora Chatelain Rapid Response Gallente Federation 113	Posted - 2013.03.12 20:35:00 - [9] - Quote Django Quik wrote: Ah yeh, sorry, thought I'd already pointed out that part about how SP is earned. And FYI - I've still not hit the cap this week, so don't go making bad assumptions. I guess, technically, that was a bad assumption on my part. I apologize, I didn't mean to insinuate that you were a better player than I am, but if you ever get a chance to play a few matches with me, you'll see just how easy it is for me to make that assumption. But thank you for explaining exactly how the whole SP mechanic works, and in the process pointing out why we have AFK Farmers, and why the current mechanic was ultimately a bad idea. I don't mind having a Passive SP gain while out of combat; something that helps out when you start a character, but becomes less useful as you increase skills. That's fine. But having a Passive Sp gain while in combat just doesn't make any sense. I'd prefer having a system that rewards SP and ISK based on WP's earned, maybe not on a one for one basis, but still. It just doesn't make sense that someone would continue to pay you, or that you would magically get better at everything, by Paddy-Cake with yourself while sitting in a corner. It's part of the reason why I'm an advocate for having more things give WP's based on your contibution to that specific fight, and the match as a whole. Which I guess is something meant for another thread entirely. But besides my lack of knowledge on the whole SP gain thing (thanks, again, for explaining that), is there anything wrong or game breaking with the idea that's been outlined on this thread? I don't really care if it gets used (ok, that's a lie, I will care but this is CCP's game and if they don't want to use it, I'll just have to find a way to live with it). But besides having to adjust how many WP's it'll take to get a OB (which they'll probably change anyway when they introduce the 24v24 matches),
Hagintora Chatelain Rapid Response Gallente Federation 113	Posted - 2013.03.12 21:52:00 - [10] - Quote Tiluvo wrote: I agree, to a point, that assaults and other roles that focus on killing enemies could use a WP boost. I can make double or triple what the heavy in my squad makes shooting guys by healing him while he's shooting guys. However, I don't think basing WP on type of enemy killed is the way to go. Dust is a team game at heart, and the rewards should reflect that. Like I suggested above with a bonus for killing enemies that've damaged your teammates, other ideas include: a bonus for killing enemies who are hacking your team's installations a bonus for killing AV-equipped enemies within a certain radius of friendly tanks a bonus for killing enemies within a certain radius of teammates who are hacking a bonus for killing enemies within a certain distance of teammates who are using repair tools bonuses for counter-hacking should definitely be implemented, as well as bonuses for repairing vehicles and installations, especially now that tankers seem to target them almost exclusively. The idea is that the bonuses will encourage people to stay near their comrades and work together to destroy the enemy. I've seen plenty of tankers complain, with good reason, about missing infantry support. But if you get the bonus I suggested above, wouldn't you want to stick around and help? I agree with all of this, except for the part highlighted above. The initial idea presented was based off of enemy type, but somewhere along the way we switched to Meta Level. Namely your Meta Level versus the enemies. If their Meta Level is higher than yours, then you are taking more of a risk when going up against them. The higher the risk, the higher the reward. More things giving more points making it more likely that your team mates will stick around and do what they're supposed to because they want the points. Also this idea could help with the Pub-Stomping issue. Not that anything will ever get rid of it completely. If you're running around in PRO gear, and the enemy is running Starter Fits, you get less points for killing them because they just aren't that much of a challenge. So you can lower your Meta Level by choosing lower ranking fits, and earn more in the way of rewards. Or, keep on as you are and wipe the floor with who ever happens to be unlucky enough to cross your path, but take a hit to your ISK and SP gain.

Hagintora Chatelain Rapid Response Gallente Federation 113	Posted - 2013.03.12 22:20:00 - [11] - Quote Tiluvo wrote: Ah, I seem to have missed that. It doesn't sound terrible, but I think better matchmaking could help with that. I think that Meta Level could help with matchmaking. Basing matchmaking on say, SP's, doesn't really help because some people (like me) have a whole bunch of SP's that they haven't assigned to anything effectively making them the same challenge from week to week until they do. Basing it on Skill Levels is better, but it doesn't take into account how much ISK you've spent on your currently available fits. But since we can choose our "Favorite" fit (which is curently being used to decide how you appear to other players while in the Warbarge), the system could take the Meta Level of your fit, combine it with your skill levels (as outlined in an earlier post), and come up with a Meta Level range that it would then use to match you with other players. If you feel that the matches it puts you in are unchallenging (or too much of a challenge), then you can simply pick a different fit as your "Favorite" and see where that puts you. It's a system that players can manipulate until they get the challenge level that they want. I'd have this apply only to Instant Battles, leaving Corp Matches and FW to their own devices.
Hagintora Chatelain Rapid Response Gallente Federation 113	Posted - 2013.03.13 09:39:00 - [12] - Quote Django Quik wrote: Okay, so the crux of the issue is starting to emerge here and it essentially comes down to pubstomps and poor matchmaking. With that in mind, it should be remembered that what we are currently playing will be a very small part of the eventual game and in the next 6 months (release is slated for summer 2013) everything will change massively. When we have full EvE integration, there will be 3 security zones in which to play - hi-sec, low-sec and null-sec. The current version of pub games will likely be quite similar to hi-sec. High level experienced players will not be playing here much because the rewards will likely be quite limited. They will all be in low and null-sec fighting over territory against other high level players and corps. As stated, I really don't think there needs to be any change because the isk rewards adequately take care of the meta level differences but to just make one point about what has now been suggested - if there is a difference in reward between meta levels (or gear types), would you only apply this to the suits? the weapons? the modules used? Do you see what I'm getting at here? It's not just about the suit. Well, no, pubstomping and matchmaking were just two situations that I saw this idea immediately affecting. The crux of the idea is to tie the WP's directly into SP's and ISK in a way that is easy to understand at a glance. Meaning that you don't have to go into the fine details when you're trying to explain to new players how the reward system works, all you have to do is say "Higher WP's Higher rewards, now go shoot something," and they'll know that everytime the WP's pop up on their screen that they've just earned more SP's and ISK. The higher the WP number, the more SP and ISK earned. Which can help make new players less afraid of tanks because tanks can be worth a lot of WP's. And the Meta Level isn't derived from just suits, but entire fits. That's Suits, Weapons, Equipment, and Modules all averaged out, then you add in your skill levels and DPS (as outlined in earlier posts), to get the Meta Level of the Fit in question.
Hagintora Chatelain Rapid Response Gallente Federation 113	Posted - 2013.03.13 10:13:00 - [13] - Quote Thrillhouse Van Houten wrote: Only problem here...what do you do when people are in squads outside of an individual game? The Meta/SP level system is great for determining rewards and I like it, but how would it place a squad of different leveled people? For example, I am a squad leader with proto gear and huge amounts of SP but all three of my mates are newbs with starter fits. Does matchmaking set us up in a proto instant battle or a starter instant battle? Also, anyone could set their fav fit to a starter fit, get thrown into a lower Meta level match and then hit up a supply depot and switch to a proto fit. Granted, switching to a proto fit would still effect their SP/ISK rewards. Also, I am aware that part of the algorithm involves total SP in addition to fit meta level. Theoretically, a guy with 5mil SP and a starter fit still won't be playing against newbies since his Meta/SP level would be too high. It's not total SP but Skill Levels that is taken into account. You can have 5 mil SP, but if you haven't spent it on anything it isn't going to do you any good. I currently have about 300K SP that I haven't spent on anything, how does this unspent SP make me any more of a challenge? But to your question; If you are joining a game on your own, then the matchmaking would just use your own Meta Level, but if you are joining a game as a premade squad, then it would take the average Meta Level of the group and place you accordingly. So let's say that I have a four man Squad that consists of four different Meta Levels: 2, 3, 4, and 5. The Average Meta Level of the group is 3.5, so that's where it would put us. It's a little more challenging for the ML2 guy, but he has a Squad of riends that he can lean on for support; And it's a little less challenging for the ML5 guy, but while he might earn less per kill he can probably make up for that by killing more than he normally would. Thrillhouse Van Houten wrote: Balancing this system correctly would be an absolute beast, fyi. Think about it. Okay, so one of the ideas here is to stop rewarding proto guys for going 31/1 in public games, right? To balance this so that actually happens you need to make the SP/ISK rewards SOOOO small for running a proto fit against starter fits that going 10/5 against other proto guys is better than going 31/1 against newbs. Not only that, you have to balance it so that going 31/1 in starter fits with 6mil SP is STILL worse than going 10/5 against other proto guys. You have to make it so that the hit you suffer for going proto against guys with 4 mil SP when you have 4 mil SP isn't ridiculous, since they should also be able to run proto at that skill level. It sounds like an absolute boondoggle to balance, is all I'm suggesting... At the end of the day, I think a Meta/SP level WP system would do wonders to curtail (if not prevent) SOME pub-stomping since the big-wigs wouldn't get jack for contract rewards for owning newbies, but balancing a system like this seems like an arduous battle for the developers at best. Ok, as stated in a previous post, no kill will be worth less than 25 WP's. The base number for any kill is 50 WP's, and he WP's are reduced (or increased) by 10 per Level. So if you're ML5 and you shoot someone who is ML3 you would earn 30 WP's. if you killed a guy who is ML1 or 2 you would earn 25 WP's. While the ML1 guy would earn 90 WP's for being able to take out the ML5 opponent. A score that reflects the challenge that opponent presented as well as the SP and ISK rewarded for defeating him. The idea really isn't to stop pubstomping completely (which I would be against anyway), but just to make it a little less lucrative. And Balancing shouldn't be an issue, you're just matching Meta Level with Meta Level (not total SP's) which could look something like this: Meta Level: 0.0-.99 1.0-1.99 2.0-2.99 3.0-3.99 etc., etc......
Hagintora Chatelain Rapid Response Gallente Federation 113	Posted - 2013.03.13 10:35:00 - [14] - Quote Django Quik wrote: Ok people still don't seem to be grasping the fact that isk takes care of rewarding your for killing higher level geared players. WP does not need to do this too. As for the matchmaking system - it doesn't work on just SP count, or even SP spend or meta-level. It's a pretty complex algorithm that produces a 'skill level'. There was a dev post recently explaining it better - I'll try to find the post to link for it. I understand that you get ISK for killing higher geared players, but until you exlpained it I thought that WP's equaled SP and ISK in some wierd algorithm that I didn't need to undertand, I just thought More WP's=More ISK. I thought this because there is NOTHING in the game that says otherwise, and WP's are the only thing that pop up on my screen when I do anything. I'm not saying that WP's should also reward you with ISK, I'm saying that I should know at a glance that I've earned a higher than normal ISK reward if I kill someone wearing higher level gear. I don't always have time to check what gear people are wearing in a fire fight, so having a higher WP score flash across my screen is a great way of letting me know. I know that there is a system in place already, I just think that it could be better, and this is my idea how. And yes, link please, I would love to read it.
Hagintora Chatelain Rapid Response Gallente Federation 113	Posted - 2013.03.13 12:20:00 - [15] - Quote Django Quik wrote: Why do you instantly need to know whether you've killed a proto guy or a militia scrub? Why does not finding out at the end of the battle how much you've contributed satisfy? It's for the same reason that they show WP's for kills and hacks, it's just a psychological "carrot" that helps pull people along the game. It's what makes you want to hack that objective, or drop that Uplink or Nanohive. It's a constant reminder that your actions have worth and consequences. It let's people know, in an almost immediate positive feedback loop, that you've done a good thing. Under the current system, and of course using the logic you've described above, WP's don't need to be shown because you can check how much you've contributed to the match at the reward screen. With other FPS's (as much as I hate to bring them up), the score you earn is directly tied into your contribution in an intuitive way. So when I see a score pop up, I know how much that action contributed to the win by how high the number is. Passive contibutions, like Nanohives and Drop Uplinks earn a lower score, while hacking objectives and enemy kills earn a higher score. You have to remember that most people coming into this game have probably never played EVE, I know that I never have (this isn't meant as an assumption that you have played EVE before, but I'm pretty sure I saw somewhere that you said you've been here since before Open Beta, which would make you more familiar with the universe as a whole than people like me). Players need something they can understand, intuitively, without the need for flowcharts and spreadsheets. The idea I've proposed would allow for that intuitiveness (i.e., higher WP's=Higher Rewards) while still keeping the complexity of how that is achieved for players that want to go into those deeper levels. Django Quik wrote: I couldn't find the dev post but I've linked the wiki page for the system that is used. Ummm.....no? No link. EDIT: Nevermind, I saw where you put it. Thanks for linking it!

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