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Caeli SineDeo Imperfects Negative-Feedback 306	Posted - 2013.03.09 23:41:00 - [1] - Quote This is going to be a multi step set up here. This is my feed back on rails from testing we did. I am also posting a couple threads for feedback about what will happen between shield tanks and armor if all this is fixed. So CCP will see the statistical imbalance they are going to create if fixed wrong. Related Thread https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=62956&find=unread I would like to thank: PFBHz Members: Pranekt Tyrvoth, Jaiden Longshot, Lazulian Sol, and slap26 IMPPP Members: GoD-NoVa and Alldin Kan These guys all made the testing process possible. And RIP to that red lined Sagaris and those cheap Sica's of Alldin's Rail Testing Rail used=Compressed Proto Rail No Skills Damage=NSD Number of Damage Mods = NDM Proficiency 4 All Other Skills Maxed=P4AOS NSD \| NDM \| P4AOS 1798 zero 3357 2176 one 4062 2571 two 4809 2890 three 5379 3037 four 5670 Percentage increase for each These are going at a compounding increase. Also the average of the two which are pretty close to each other. This shows that the stacking penalty is in place. But instead of the 10% the damage mods are suppose to give they are putting out a 21%. 21% difference between 0 and 1 damage mod-first damage mod 18.3% difference between 1 and 2 damage mods 85.6% less then first mod-second damage mod 12.2% difference between 2 and 3 damage mods 58% less then first mod-third damage mod 5.3% difference between 3 and 4 damage mods 25.2% less then first mod-fourth damage mod Eve Stacking Penalties 1-100% 2-87% 3-57% 4-28% It is not right on but that is because rounding throughout some of these things. This does show it right in line with eve stacking penalties though So now what does the turret skills do for a tanker. Hybrid Operations gives 3% per lvl Hybrid Proficiency gives 2% per lvl Turret Operations gives 2% per lvl Our driver had HO, TO maxed out, and HP lvl 4 so that means he should have a 33% increase to his damage Base damage 1798 33% more= 2391 He is hitting 3357 Which is 86.7%
Caeli SineDeo Imperfects Negative-Feedback 306	Posted - 2013.03.09 23:41:00 - [2] - Quote reserved
Mavado V Noriega SyNergy Gaming 2381	Posted - 2013.03.10 00:10:00 - [3] - Quote so passive skills are actually broken and the dmg mods just output 21% instead of 10% but stacks correctly im fine with that seems passive skilling is broken then kudos Caeli
Caeli SineDeo Imperfects Negative-Feedback 308	Posted - 2013.03.10 00:13:00 - [4] - Quote I have talked about passive skills being broken a long time ago. And instead of banging my head on a wall and saying Damage mods are okay even though there broken by giving a extra percentage it is what allows shield tanks have a advantage over armor with out that high of percentage shield would never win a rail.. The other testers and I decided to show that damage mods are okay. It is the passive skills that are the only thing need to fixed. And I hope CCP can see these threads I build and really look into fixing things the correct way.
Mavado V Noriega SyNergy Gaming 2381	Posted - 2013.03.10 00:16:00 - [5] - Quote Caeli SineDeo wrote: I have talked about passive skills being broken a long time ago. And instead of banging my head on a wall and saying Damage mods are okay even though there broken by giving a extra percentage it is what allows shield tanks have a advantage over armor with out that high of percentage shield would never win a rail.. The other testers and I decided to show that damage mods are okay. It is the passive skills that are the only thing need to fixed. And I hope CCP can see these threads I build and really look into fixing things the correct way. agreed tbh had a suspicion skills were broken too and that would explain why the numbers werent adding up to the dmg outputted kinda ****** that something as simple as passive skill dmg would be broken tho, you'd think the more complicated calculation would be the one **** lol
Caeli SineDeo Imperfects Negative-Feedback 308	Posted - 2013.03.10 00:19:00 - [6] - Quote Mavado V Noriega wrote: Caeli SineDeo wrote: I have talked about passive skills being broken a long time ago. And instead of banging my head on a wall and saying Damage mods are okay even though there broken by giving a extra percentage it is what allows shield tanks have a advantage over armor with out that high of percentage shield would never win a rail.. The other testers and I decided to show that damage mods are okay. It is the passive skills that are the only thing need to fixed. And I hope CCP can see these threads I build and really look into fixing things the correct way. agreed tbh had a suspicion skills were broken too and that would explain why the numbers werent adding up to the dmg outputted kinda ****** that something as simple as passive skill dmg would be broken tho, you'd think the more complicated calculation would be the one **** lol I personally think there coders are not thinking simple when they code some of these things causing to much math to be involved allowing for mistakes to happen as there code puts it all together. And because I was nice mav you can look in the bug section and see what I found wrong with armor resist and DCU combined and armor resist by themselves. it effects shields also though.
slap26 Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz RISE of LEGION 492	Posted - 2013.03.10 00:30:00 - [7] - Quote I'm waiting on Laz to post his crazy math now
ZiwZih Sinq Laison Gendarmes Gallente Federation 65	Posted - 2013.03.10 00:33:00 - [8] - Quote Just note that different passives are compounded while skill levels stack. Quote: Hybrid Operations gives 3% per lvl Hybrid Proficiency gives 2% per lvl Turret Operations gives 2% per lvl Our driver had HO, TO maxed out, and HP lvl 4 so that means he should have a 33% increase to his damage (1+(0.035)) (1+(0.025)) (1+(0.02*4)) =1.3662 So base 1798 dmg with 1.3662 multiplier should give 2456 dmg. Which is a bit more than 33% but not 86%... :) In detail: http://dustsearch.com/thread/57922/page/1#15
2-Ton Twenty-One Imperfects Negative-Feedback 265	Posted - 2013.03.10 01:04:00 - [9] - Quote well done
RINON114 B.S.A.A. 32	Posted - 2013.03.10 03:48:00 - [10] - Quote Let's not forget about armour repair, that doesn't work at all.

Mavado V Noriega SyNergy Gaming 2382	Posted - 2013.03.10 04:32:00 - [11] - Quote ZiwZih wrote: Just note that different passives are compounded while skill levels stack. Quote: Hybrid Operations gives 3% per lvl Hybrid Proficiency gives 2% per lvl Turret Operations gives 2% per lvl Our driver had HO, TO maxed out, and HP lvl 4 so that means he should have a 33% increase to his damage (1+(0.035)) (1+(0.025)) (1+(0.02*4)) =1.3662 So base 1798 dmg with 1.3662 multiplier should give 2456 dmg. Which is a bit more than 33% but not 86%... :) In detail: http://dustsearch.com/thread/57922/page/1#15 thats what is SUPPOSE to be but as u can see its giving out MORE than that and dmg mods appear to stack fine so its the SKILLS that give out incorrect bonuses
ZiwZih Sinq Laison Gendarmes Gallente Federation 67	Posted - 2013.03.10 04:39:00 - [12] - Quote Mavado V Noriega wrote: ZiwZih wrote: Just note that different passives are compounded while skill levels stack. Quote: Hybrid Operations gives 3% per lvl Hybrid Proficiency gives 2% per lvl Turret Operations gives 2% per lvl Our driver had HO, TO maxed out, and HP lvl 4 so that means he should have a 33% increase to his damage (1+(0.035)) (1+(0.025)) (1+(0.02*4)) =1.3662 So base 1798 dmg with 1.3662 multiplier should give 2456 dmg. Which is a bit more than 33% but not 86%... :) In detail: http://dustsearch.com/thread/57922/page/1#15 thats what is SUPPOSE to be but as u can see its giving out MORE than that and dmg mods appear to stack fine so its the SKILLS that give out incorrect bonuses Yes, of course, it is obvious. I didn't have intent to nitpick but by pointing that multiplier isn't 1.33 but rather 1.366 I just wanted to share that link -- it's useful info.
Free Beers Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 1177	Posted - 2013.03.10 04:45:00 - [13] - Quote I know we talked tanks since the summer but I still think damage mods need to be rethought. Having them in High slots gives shields tanks bonus to alpha damage but weak cqc infantry/tanks. I think both armor and shield need to be viable to run every turret and mod. Though each tank fit can and should have different degrees of effectiveness. The EvE nerd in me hates that x can only be good at y idea. It's horrible to start of dust this way.
Rachoi HavoK Core 30	Posted - 2013.03.10 10:21:00 - [14] - Quote hooray for solid number, i have to sayi' like this. m rather glad to see something like this come about, and that it sounds as right as it can. so the skills themselves make everyhting powerful? always figured it was the mods, yet the skill bonuses dont appear in the suit loadout screen, or vehicle one, we should get that fixed by CCP
The dark cloud Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS. 1102	Posted - 2013.03.10 10:43:00 - [15] - Quote Did you tried testing if the same railgun does the same damage when mounted on a gunnlogi-madrugar? I assume you got that data from sagaris-surya. Somehow i have a feeling that the marauders still have their hidden 50% damage bonus from the E3 build. Cause when i got my sagaris i had a massive damage increase.
slap26 Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz RISE of LEGION 492	Posted - 2013.03.10 18:54:00 - [16] - Quote The dark cloud wrote: Did you tried testing if the same railgun does the same damage when mounted on a gunnlogi-madrugar? I assume you got that data from sagaris-surya. Somehow i have a feeling that the marauders still have their hidden 50% damage bonus from the E3 build. Cause when i got my sagaris i had a massive damage increase. Everything was tested on Soma hulls and I do the exact same damage with a Sagaris. (We had a person with no turrets skills, along with myself testing shots)
0 Try Harder Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz RISE of LEGION 138	Posted - 2013.03.10 20:16:00 - [17] - Quote Free Beers wrote: Having them in High slots gives shields tanks bonus to alpha damage but weaka cqc infantry/tanks. I think both armor and shield need to be viable to run every turret and mod. Though each tank fit can and should have different degrees of effectiveness. Shield tanks are currently terrible at CQC, and armor tanks are good at CQC. Do you mean the other way around? :P Switching damage mods to high slots gives a HUGE bonus to armor tanks, and is a HUGE nerf to shield tanks. Right now, armor tanks are excellent in CQC, and good at longer range railgun fights. Shield tanks can and have been destroyed by the railgun on an armor tank. And no, the shield tanker does not have to be terrible at tanking. As Caeli pointed out, it is the skill points that are broken and not the damage mods. The damage armor tanks put out is still high. If a shield tank cannot kill an armor tank in ten seconds and takes damage, the shield tank is out of commission for a long time or dead. Armor tanks can survive long fights, but a shield tank's regen is low, and the boosters are terrible. The shield hardeners have a long cooldown and are only active for ten seconds. Shield tanks are excellent in long range battles, and mediocre to terrible in CQC. One of the biggest downsides to a shield tank is that they have low PG when compared to an armor tank. Shield tanks also take extra damage from flux grenades, and take a reduced amount of damage from AV, but that damage is still high. Armor only takes damage from AV grenades. That, coupled with a mediocre shield booster and only ten seconds of shield hardener with a thirty second CD (armor is sixty seconds on and ten seconds of cooldown) means that a shield tank has to spend a lot of time waiting for its cooldowns to finish, and can only be taking damage for ten seconds. It is usually easier to avoid taking damage when fighting from a distance. Blaster turrets are significantly better than railguns in CQC too. Blaster turrets are PG heavy, which places further strain on the shield tank's already low PG. But, if CCP decides to kill shield tanks, then I support putting dmg mods in the high slots. Idc if a useless tank is made even more useless. I would be sad, but at that point it would be similar to doing something like doubling the PG and CPU cost of missile turrets. No one would care because no one uses them anymore. oh, since this is a math thread, I'm going to search for the info showing the stat differences between the two first :P. If there is not a thread, I'll post some data, and try to figure out how to do it without giving my build away (lol). Just some quick reference points: Shield regen w/5 shield boost systems: 27.6 Sagaris (w/5 in each skill that gives a bonus): Shield: 3900 Armor: 1250 EHP: 5150 Passive shield regen: 27.6 HP/S CPU: 456 PG: 2299 (I know, don't ask me, ask CCP) High slots: 5 Low slots: 3 Surya (w/5 in each skill that gives a bonus): Shield: 1125 Armor: 4350 EHP: 5475 Passive shield regen: 10 HP/S CPU: 293 PG: 3425 High slots: 3 Low slots: 5 Modules (CPU/PG) with 5 skill points in CPU reduction skills (there are no PG skills): Shield Booster: 57/608 Armor Rep: 19/1064 Shield Hardener: 34/5 Armor Hardener: 19/5 btw, HP per CPU and HP per PG is (hp/cpu and hp/pg): Heavy Azeotropic Shield Extender: 54/646 Shield: 2185 HP HP per CPU: 40.46 HP per PG: 3.38 Sagaris PG (2299) multiplied by HP per PG (3.38): 7770.62 Sagaris CPU (456) multiplied by HP per CPU (40.46): 18449.76 180mm Polycrystalline (armor) Plate: 18/1102 Armor: 3128 HP HP per CPU: 173.78 HP per PG: 2.84 Surya PG (3425) multiplied by HP per PG (2.84): 9727 Surya CPU (293) multiplied by HP per CPU (173.78): 50917.54 And the final calculation (for now): Sagaris EHP (5150) plus HP given from PG for Heavy Azeo Shield Extender (7770.62): 12920.62 possible Surya EHP (5475) plus HP given from PG for 180mm Polyc Plate (9727): 15202 possible It continues on like that. I can do the rest later or whatever (I think it's a good way to avoid giving away my fit while showing how much each mod changes HP values xD) PG is the limiting factor for HP for both a Sagaris and a Surya. A Surya has a higher base HP than a Sagaris. Armor plates have a higher PG cost for each point of HP, but since the Surya has higher base PG than that of the Sagaris, the Surya gets more HP anyways. If I finish the mods (or someone else does) you'll see that the Surya is stronger than the Sagaris. Keep in mind that the Sagaris's hardeners are only active for ten seconds each with a thirty second cooldown, and the Surya's hardeners are active for sixty seconds with a ten second cooldown. Shield hardeners are a 30% damage reduction, and the armor hardeners are 25%, so the Sagaris does get more of a benefit from hardeners, but only for ten seconds. Anyways, I am not asking for a nerf to armor tanks (which are significantly better at CQC) or a nerf to shield tanks (which are better at long range.) I am actually somewhat happy with the current balance. Of course I'd like a better tank or weaker AV lol, but not enough to QQ on forums about it xD.
0 Try Harder Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz RISE of LEGION 138	Posted - 2013.03.10 20:17:00 - [18] - Quote The Sagaris makes up for its bad HP and bad Repair with high damage. It's a glass cannon. The Surya is able to do slightly less damage at long range, but can tank and tear everything up at close (kind of like a fat suit with a logi -___-). current balance: Shield tank > Armor tank Armor tank > Infantry Infantry > Shield tank so each has a weakness and a counter- one thing is slightly better at something and slightly worse at something else. if damage is reduced to a point where the rail damage is the same for shield and armor: Shield tank = armor tank Armor tank > Infantry Infantry > Shield tank So shield is weak to something, the same as something else, and better than nothing. Armor is now better because its one weakness is gone. CCP seems to like to overkill on the nerfs, the planned nerf/fix is set up to work like this, so the most likely scenario is: Armor tank > Shield tank Armor tank > Infantry Infantry > Shield tank So the shield tank will suck against everything, and be better than nothing. To correct this balance and make things equal or change the shield tank > armor tank, CCP will need to do a LOT of work, and spend TONS of time reworking the stats of pretty much everything. I do not see an easy fix to make shield tanks useful at anything if their damage advantage is removed.
Gusk Hevv Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic 5	Posted - 2013.03.11 00:08:00 - [19] - Quote Just a quick reminder; the best armor hardener is only as good as the worst shield hardener. Stats : Meta1 SH Meta1 AH 30% 25% Meta2 SH Meta2 AH 35% 28% Meta3 SH Meta3 AH 40% 30%
Aeryn Orpaul Forty-Nine Fedayeen Minmatar Republic 0	Posted - 2013.03.11 00:37:00 - [20] - Quote yea this is interesting Id like to run the same thing on more weapons and see if this is commonplace. and even if you compound every skill level you only end up with 38.54398311924387088355887616% increase in damage.

0 Try Harder Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz RISE of LEGION 140	Posted - 2013.03.11 01:11:00 - [21] - Quote Gusk Hevv wrote: Just a quick reminder; the best armor hardener is only as good as the worst shield hardener. edit: if you'd like to see the full comparasion, you should look at Caeli's other post here. It'll give you a full explanation with math about everything (more than just pointing out that the shield hardener is 30% for 10 seconds with a 30 second cooldown, and the armor is 25% for 60 seconds with a 10 second cooldown.)
slap26 Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz RISE of LEGION 494	Posted - 2013.03.11 04:34:00 - [22] - Quote Aeryn Orpaul wrote: yea this is interesting Id like to run the same thing on more weapons and see if this is commonplace. and even if you compound every skill level you only end up with 38.54398311924387088355887616% increase in damage. We are planning on testing AR's next. Forges and Swarms are also in the works
Alldin Kan Imperfects Negative-Feedback 171	Posted - 2013.03.11 17:35:00 - [23] - Quote bump
Cross Atu Conspiratus Immortalis 792	Posted - 2013.03.11 18:57:00 - [24] - Quote Thank you Caeli SineDeo for providing detailed testing results. +1 for doing beta testing Cheers, Cross
Caeli SineDeo Imperfects Negative-Feedback 331	Posted - 2013.03.12 06:01:00 - [25] - Quote Going to re-bump this for the DEVs.
trollsroyce Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS. 201	Posted - 2013.03.12 10:47:00 - [26] - Quote What stuff did you shoot with it? Might also be broken damage split issue, e.g. All thermal, which could be gun specific.

CCP Phantom C C P C C P Alliance 2	Posted - 2013.03.12 13:39:00 - [27] - Quote Caeli SineDeo wrote: Going to re-bump this for the DEVs. Thank you! We are reading all our forums and the good feedback from you. All the feedback from our players are incredible valuable, especially when it comes to balancing and actual gameplay features. The collected feedback then is brought to attention to our developers. Be assured that your feedback matters and will taken into account, even though we do not always post follow-up reports on the forum.

slap26 Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz RISE of LEGION 494	Posted - 2013.03.13 21:30:00 - [28] - Quote Another Bump
Caeli SineDeo Imperfects Negative-Feedback 431	Posted - 2013.05.05 19:41:00 - [29] - Quote Bumping this for ccp to take a look at going into uprising no idea if we will be able to test things like this easily in the new build but hope we are able to do this somehow.
slap26 Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 674	Posted - 2013.06.01 06:15:00 - [30] - Quote the numbers might have been broken, but I think tanking was more fun in chromosome



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