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Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz
RISE of LEGION
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Posted - 2013.03.10 20:16:00 -
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Free Beers wrote:Having them in High slots gives shields tanks bonus to alpha damage but weaka cqc infantry/tanks. I think both armor and shield need to be viable to run every turret and mod. Though each tank fit can and should have different degrees of effectiveness.
Shield tanks are currently terrible at CQC, and armor tanks are good at CQC. Do you mean the other way around? :P Switching damage mods to high slots gives a HUGE bonus to armor tanks, and is a HUGE nerf to shield tanks.
Right now, armor tanks are excellent in CQC, and good at longer range railgun fights. Shield tanks can and have been destroyed by the railgun on an armor tank. And no, the shield tanker does not have to be terrible at tanking. As Caeli pointed out, it is the skill points that are broken and not the damage mods. The damage armor tanks put out is still high. If a shield tank cannot kill an armor tank in ten seconds and takes damage, the shield tank is out of commission for a long time or dead. Armor tanks can survive long fights, but a shield tank's regen is low, and the boosters are terrible. The shield hardeners have a long cooldown and are only active for ten seconds.
Shield tanks are excellent in long range battles, and mediocre to terrible in CQC. One of the biggest downsides to a shield tank is that they have low PG when compared to an armor tank. Shield tanks also take extra damage from flux grenades, and take a reduced amount of damage from AV, but that damage is still high. Armor only takes damage from AV grenades. That, coupled with a mediocre shield booster and only ten seconds of shield hardener with a thirty second CD (armor is sixty seconds on and ten seconds of cooldown) means that a shield tank has to spend a lot of time waiting for its cooldowns to finish, and can only be taking damage for ten seconds. It is usually easier to avoid taking damage when fighting from a distance. Blaster turrets are significantly better than railguns in CQC too. Blaster turrets are PG heavy, which places further strain on the shield tank's already low PG.
But, if CCP decides to kill shield tanks, then I support putting dmg mods in the high slots. Idc if a useless tank is made even more useless. I would be sad, but at that point it would be similar to doing something like doubling the PG and CPU cost of missile turrets. No one would care because no one uses them anymore.
oh, since this is a math thread, I'm going to search for the info showing the stat differences between the two first :P. If there is not a thread, I'll post some data, and try to figure out how to do it without giving my build away (lol).
Just some quick reference points:
Shield regen w/5 shield boost systems: 27.6
Sagaris (w/5 in each skill that gives a bonus):
Shield: 3900
Armor: 1250
EHP: 5150
Passive shield regen: 27.6 HP/S
CPU: 456
PG: 2299 (I know, don't ask me, ask CCP)
High slots: 5
Low slots: 3
Surya (w/5 in each skill that gives a bonus):
Shield: 1125
Armor: 4350
EHP: 5475
Passive shield regen: 10 HP/S
CPU: 293
PG: 3425
High slots: 3
Low slots: 5
Modules (CPU/PG) with 5 skill points in CPU reduction skills (there are no PG skills):
Shield Booster: 57/608
Armor Rep: 19/1064
Shield Hardener: 34/5
Armor Hardener: 19/5
btw, HP per CPU and HP per PG is (hp/cpu and hp/pg):
Heavy Azeotropic Shield Extender: 54/646
Shield: 2185 HP
HP per CPU: 40.46
HP per PG: 3.38
Sagaris PG (2299) multiplied by HP per PG (3.38): 7770.62
Sagaris CPU (456) multiplied by HP per CPU (40.46): 18449.76
180mm Polycrystalline (armor) Plate: 18/1102
Armor: 3128 HP
HP per CPU: 173.78
HP per PG: 2.84
Surya PG (3425) multiplied by HP per PG (2.84): 9727
Surya CPU (293) multiplied by HP per CPU (173.78): 50917.54
And the final calculation (for now):
Sagaris EHP (5150) plus HP given from PG for Heavy Azeo Shield Extender (7770.62): 12920.62 possible
Surya EHP (5475) plus HP given from PG for 180mm Polyc Plate (9727): 15202 possible
It continues on like that. I can do the rest later or whatever (I think it's a good way to avoid giving away my fit while showing how much each mod changes HP values xD) PG is the limiting factor for HP for both a Sagaris and a Surya. A Surya has a higher base HP than a Sagaris. Armor plates have a higher PG cost for each point of HP, but since the Surya has higher base PG than that of the Sagaris, the Surya gets more HP anyways.
If I finish the mods (or someone else does) you'll see that the Surya is stronger than the Sagaris. Keep in mind that the Sagaris's hardeners are only active for ten seconds each with a thirty second cooldown, and the Surya's hardeners are active for sixty seconds with a ten second cooldown. Shield hardeners are a 30% damage reduction, and the armor hardeners are 25%, so the Sagaris does get more of a benefit from hardeners, but only for ten seconds.
Anyways, I am not asking for a nerf to armor tanks (which are significantly better at CQC) or a nerf to shield tanks (which are better at long range.) I am actually somewhat happy with the current balance. Of course I'd like a better tank or weaker AV lol, but not enough to QQ on forums about it xD. |
0 Try Harder
Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz
RISE of LEGION
138
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Posted - 2013.03.10 20:17:00 -
[2] - Quote
The Sagaris makes up for its bad HP and bad Repair with high damage. It's a glass cannon. The Surya is able to do slightly less damage at long range, but can tank and tear everything up at close (kind of like a fat suit with a logi -___-).
current balance:
Shield tank > Armor tank
Armor tank > Infantry
Infantry > Shield tank
so each has a weakness and a counter- one thing is slightly better at something and slightly worse at something else.
if damage is reduced to a point where the rail damage is the same for shield and armor:
Shield tank = armor tank
Armor tank > Infantry
Infantry > Shield tank
So shield is weak to something, the same as something else, and better than nothing. Armor is now better because its one weakness is gone.
CCP seems to like to overkill on the nerfs, the planned nerf/fix is set up to work like this, so the most likely scenario is:
Armor tank > Shield tank
Armor tank > Infantry
Infantry > Shield tank
So the shield tank will suck against everything, and be better than nothing.
To correct this balance and make things equal or change the shield tank > armor tank, CCP will need to do a LOT of work, and spend TONS of time reworking the stats of pretty much everything. I do not see an easy fix to make shield tanks useful at anything if their damage advantage is removed. |