DUST Search - Scout suit is underestimated.

ZiwZih wrote:

Garrett Blacknova wrote:

ZiwZih wrote:

Also, Garrett: Cmdr Wand announced that they will look at disparity between KBM and Sixaxis. When you go max DPI which PS3 allows, you definitely turn a bit faster. Now, as a Scout setting that high DPI means you cannot hit anything, but Heavy may come close to top speed and manage his aim.

I've actually seen that since I posted earlier. it's interesting.

Quote:

The dev team will compare turn speeds with kbm and controllers for both infantry and vehicles to see if there are inconsistancies.

That doesn't say they'll look at the disparity, which assumes that there is a disparity to look at. It says they'll look to see if there is a disparity or not, which is completely different. With how they've worded that, it's clear that there SHOULDN'T be a difference in max turning speeds between control schemes, and if there is, it's a bug and will be fixed.

I haven't personally seen evidence of this, and I haven't seen confirmation from CCP that they consider it any more than a concern to be investigated, so while it's possible it's true, I'm still viewing it as a rumour until I see evidence of it for myself. If and when that happens, cool, but at the moment, I'm happy that CCP are investigating it as a possible problem while people are reporting it as such.

If you haven't seen, that means you tested? If not, try this: set your DPI on mouse to 3200 DPI (that will be set to 2000 by PS3 if the limit exist at all) and and set mouse sensitivity to highest. Then set your Seixaxis sensitivity to X-Y highest.

A Scout using a mouse with this settings is almost impossible to be aimed/played with. Sixaxis is fast but more manageable. There most certainly is disparity.


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Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 1909	Posted - 2013.03.09 08:08:00 - [1] - Quote Sleepy Zan wrote: N1ck Comeau wrote: Sleepy Zan wrote: N1ck Comeau wrote: We can all agree that the scout suit is a extremely hard to use suit but if used properly the benefits out way the disadvantages I thought we just went over this... well obviously some people don't understand. I have already proved benefits do not out weigh disadvantages by comparing them to another suit that can do everything a scout suit can do but better. Which suit has better scanning stats (both profile AND PRECISION)? Which suit has a higher strafe speed? Which suit has better shield regen? Which suit has ALL those things as well as straight-line speed and HP to outmatch the Scout? Pro-tip: The correct answer is "Sorry, I was wrong"
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 1909	Posted - 2013.03.09 08:58:00 - [2] - Quote Volgair wrote: It moves only slightly faster then the assault with 1/3 the survival time under consistent fire. The signature is only slightly smaller then that of an assault. The point that really hammers it home, If you are a good scout, you can be a great assault for all the same reasons. Lets try this again... Garrett Blacknova wrote: Which suit has better scanning stats (both profile AND PRECISION)? Which suit has a higher strafe speed? Which suit has better shield regen? Which suit has ALL those things as well as straight-line speed and HP to outmatch the Scout? Assault Strafe speed? MUCH lower than Scout. Assault scan profile? Only slightly lower, but that's why I asked for profile AND PRECISION. Assault shield regen? Also significantly lower than the Scout. Straight-line speed? Scout is ahead - not by a huge amount, but still ahead. And that's before I bring up the stamina advantage. Scouts have more stamina and faster regen than other suits, allowing for much more CONSISTENT mobility - which is important in buildings and areas with a good amount of cover... IF you're good at playing to those strengths.
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 1909	Posted - 2013.03.09 09:45:00 - [3] - Quote WyrmHero1945 wrote: ^Higher shields, module slots and CPU/PG > everything you said above. Is speed really that significant at the cost of lower number of modulr slots and HP??? Speed alone? No. But as my post VERY CLEARLY explained, speed ISN'T the only advantage. And yes, speed, stealth, scanning, agility and mobility (the latter 2 are different from speed) are worth the HP sacrifice in the right hands. But ONLY in the right hands.
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 1910	Posted - 2013.03.09 10:39:00 - [4] - Quote WyrmHero1945 wrote: That means scouts are great for "lone wolf" infiltration tactics? Sometimes I like getting through the back and kill a group of snipers, sneaking up a heavy or just killing without being noticed while the group's attention is at my whole team. Scouts aren't so great when unsupported. When the enemy is busy firing at the Heavy or tanked Assault, the Scout is the guy who appears behind those enemies who were too distracted to pay attention to a flicker of movement on the edge of their screen, after all, it didn't have a red marker... Scouts are also great for providing a forward spawn up in a difficult-to-climb hillside or in an unexpected flanking position near an objective, or in a well-defended part of an Ambush map that it would take any other suit twice as long to reach.
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 1910	Posted - 2013.03.09 10:51:00 - [5] - Quote WyrmHero1945 wrote: I think this is an important question. Does firing your weapon makes you appear on your enemy's radar???? Been wanting to try out those Nova Knives for the lulz. Most weapons increase your profile when fired. You don't automatically appear, but you will if it bumps your profile high enough in relation to an enemy close enough, or one with line of sight on you.
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 1927	Posted - 2013.03.10 16:21:00 - [6] - Quote Sleepy Zan wrote: That is a wonderful example of a selective and close minded view point on this, thank you.You fail to acknowledge any of the assault suit's advantages and how they may or may not cancel out the scout's advantages. Both suits can negate one another's advantages in various ways. I'm not denying that. I'm focusing on where the Scouts DO have the advantage because THAT'S WHAT OTHERS ARE ARGUING AGAINST. When people claim the Scout has NO advantages, that's flat-out WRONG. There are advantages, and when you play to those advantages, you can CONSISTENTLY beat Assaults. Just like a good Assault player can consistently beat a Scout when playing to the Assault's advantages. Quote: First off, profile and precision are only at a 5 point(10%) difference from the assault suit, yes you can still call that an advantage but you shouldn't get carried away just because you want to aimlessly defend the scout suit. Really? I can see the difference of 5 points between 45 and 50 on Profile, but are you SURE that going from 45 to 55 on Precision is the same amount? You should probably take another look at those stats. Scan Precision is the larger advantage, which is why I emphasised it over and above the Profile reduction. Also, Scan range. Scout has 25m, Assault has only15m. I'd say that's more than just a slight advantage. Quote: Strafe speed may be significantly higher then the assault type-I variations but not a big difference over the assault type-IIs, yes you do feel a difference when you play the suit, and I have to admit the scout does feel nicer, but from your enemy's view point (where it matters) there is hardly a difference at all when tracking it. It's enough that you can feel it - both when using the suit AND trying to track it. You can still stay on target with many weapons, but there are some that struggle to hit a strafing Scout. If you're assuming a head-on AR duel, then yeah, Scouts aren't built for that, so they're going to lose. But while situational, that's still an advantage. Quote: Now for the regen. True it is significantly higher and it does actually pay off in some situations but in my experience playing in both suits, the hp advantage the assault suit has pays off in more situations then the scouts lower hp but higher recovery. You can keep the scout suit in spots where it has the advantage but ultimately the play style required to exploit the fast regen can easily anchor you down in a match. In Ambush, there is NO map where the combination of Stamina and Shield Regen advantages can't be played as a heavy advantage throughout 90% of the map. In Skirmish, there's only Manus Peak, where all the objectives are good areas for Scouts, but the wide open spaces between them can be difficult at times. Quote: The most significant advantage I have found the scout suit to have is it's larger pool of stamina which allows you to sprint to objectives and move around the map faster on foot, but free LAVs Free LAV + enemy with Swarm Launcher vs. Scout + enemy with Swarm Launcher. Which option is more likely to get you killed?
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 1927	Posted - 2013.03.10 16:21:00 - [7] - Quote Quote: The assault suit has more slots and more cpu which allows it to be a far better asset then the scout can ever hope to be atm. If you'd like you can even put those slots to use and turn it into a scout suit with the right mods and still be more effective. The way scout suits are right now makes them more of a liability then an advantage and even if you do well in them it most likely just means your not playing to your full potential do to the suit's limitations, it makes me sad btw this is the part where you say "sorry, I was wrong" So which Assault suit has 2 High Slots and 7 Low Slots? Because that's the minimum amount you need to match the baseline stats of a Scout suit in all the areas where there's actually a module you can use to try and match the Scout. Even with that, we're assuming you have PG and CPU to burn, and ignoring the walk and strafe speed advantages the Scout still has, and a couple of the stats are falling slightly short of the Scout in spite of using SEVEN LOW POWER SLOTS to try and reproduce the suit's capabilities on a different suit.
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 1927	Posted - 2013.03.10 16:33:00 - [8] - Quote ZiwZih wrote: Cope higher DPI mouse with a HMG and a Scout is as good as standing still. There's a mouse that lets you break the turn speed cap? That's news to me as well.In CQC, a good Scout can stay out of that HMG's line of fire by moving faster than the Heavy can turn. And the speed advantage over Assaults gives Scouts a (slightly) larger window in which it's possible, allowing for more of a margin for error than in the closest Assault suit to matching their speed.
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 1935	Posted - 2013.03.11 04:03:00 - [9] - Quote ZiwZih wrote: Garrett Blacknova wrote: ZiwZih wrote: Cope higher DPI mouse with a HMG and a Scout is as good as standing still. There's a mouse that lets you break the turn speed cap? That's news to me as well.In CQC, a good Scout can stay out of that HMG's line of fire by moving faster than the Heavy can turn. And the speed advantage over Assaults gives Scouts a (slightly) larger window in which it's possible, allowing for more of a margin for error than in the closest Assault suit to matching their speed. Yes Garrett. 2000 DPI is apparently the limit when it comes to PS3 and a mouse. Maxed DPI does feel notably faster than fastest (most sensitive) set on Sixaxis -- in Rail and Blaster instalation. Will give it a proper test this evening. Turn speed cap is still a hard cap that prevents you from turning faster than a fixed limit. It may be that you get SMOOTHER turning, but if you're turning definitively FASTER, that shouldn't be happening. And I'm still yet to (even against a friend with a very expensive gaming KB+M setup) find anyone whose HMG turns as fast in CQC as my Scout moves.
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 1940	Posted - 2013.03.11 11:54:00 - [10] - Quote Beren Hurin wrote: I can't believe shield recharge rate was mentioned only once. To me that is the biggest difference between scout and assault. As a result, scout can take more 'sustained' damage over time than assault. While the Assault is better at the low IQ standing in the open point your gun at the guy and hold the trigger conflicts. Scout will win every time when it is a matter of glancing grenade battles, hopping in, out, and around cover, taking spray from various angles etc. I see two people who mentioned the shield regen, one of whom (me) has brought that up several times as a part of the advantage the Scout has.

Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 1942	Posted - 2013.03.11 13:44:00 - [11] - Quote Sleepy Zan wrote: Garrett Blacknova wrote: Sleepy Zan wrote: That is a wonderful example of a selective and close minded view point on this, thank you.You fail to acknowledge any of the assault suit's advantages and how they may or may not cancel out the scout's advantages. Both suits can negate one another's advantages in various ways. I'm not denying that. I'm focusing on where the Scouts DO have the advantage because THAT'S WHAT OTHERS ARE ARGUING AGAINST. When people claim the Scout has NO advantages, that's flat-out WRONG. There are advantages, and when you play to those advantages, you can CONSISTENTLY beat Assaults. Just like a good Assault player can consistently beat a Scout when playing to the Assault's advantages. I'll make a longer post later since most of your response translates to, "no your wrong." I will say my bad on the scan precision stats I'm glad they must have changed them since last I was on, or I made a mistake when thinking back on them. I will just say I have played both suits extensively and the way this game is, scouts are not even needed here at all the same way assaults, logis, and heavies are. At there highest potential in matches they are just a throw away suit to quickly get an uplink down without using a free LAV. Prove me wrong. CQC-fitted Scouts are better than CQC-fitted Assaults for countering HMGs, Snipers, Laser Rifles and long-range AV infantry on most maps. While not necessarily more effective, Scout Snipers provide support differently and are harder to track down than Assault Snipers. Actually using the Scout AS A SCOUT can provide benefits to the team that an extra set of shields and a gun on the front line will never provide, and the Scout does it better than any other suit. Well-fitted AR Scouts can chip away at most enemies with very little risk to themselves, and will force the enemy to retreat (at which point, they can outrun most enemies trying to run from them).
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 1942	Posted - 2013.03.11 14:49:00 - [12] - Quote Sleepy Zan wrote: The being better at countering HMGs is out right wrong, and for the CQC-fitted suit going after the long range is just an ineffective method entirely. You use long range weapons to most effectively take out enemies at long range. Proof of why I'm wrong on the HMG? I've explained my reasons. It's easier - for a variety of reasons - to locate a Heavy with a Scout than an Assault, confirm their position, facing and heading, and get yourself into position to ambush them from behind, than to do the same with an Assault. Going head-on against HMG Heavies is likely to get you killed with either suit, so hitting from behind in close quarters is a better option. You CAN use all your Low Slots and most of your fitting capacity to (almost) match the reasons a Scout is better at this than an Assault, but the Scout can use all their fittings slots to dual-tank and basically have the same statlines for everything once you're both done. And without going overboard on tanking your Scout, if you can get close to the heavy, the Scout's mobility gives it an advantage in being a more difficult target that makes more difference in that situation than the extra HP would. As for long-range weapons, countering them with your own is a fail tactic when the enemy is in a secure position and you're not. CQC fittings are built to negate the advantages of long-range weapons. Scouts are particularly good at doing so. Assaults only moderately so. Quote: Scout snipers are in no way harder to track, this I know for a fact as I've tracked down hundreds of either suit. Obviously not used to dealing with good Scout Snipers. A Scout Sniper playing the role correctly is a rare event, but if and when you see it, they're the ones most likely to run 20+/0 without Redlining themselves. Quote: Again wrong with a sniper rifle you can mark targets with the range of the sniper scope all the same, and even without that the fact that you see everything your squad sees there is no need for a suit designed for scouting. With communication we have never had the need for a scout suit. With a Sniper Rifle, you can mark ONE enemy at basically any range regardless of your suit, but you need line of sight to do so. With the right skills trained and the right modules on a Scout fitted as an ACTUAL Scout, you can get close to an area where enemy activity is suspected and light up MULTIPLE enemies, and you can do so WITHOUT EXPOSING YOURSELF TO RETURN FIRE. Quote: lol at this a logi or an assault suit with an AR can do this and kill the other opponent rather then forcing him to retreat. If your talking about a group of enemies then yes you can kite them, however in a logi or assault you can jump in and out of cover and stand your ground more. An Assault or Logi can go toe-to-toe with an enemy and survive while the enemy goes down, but has to be MUCH more cautious when outnumbered, and usually ends up having to retreat as soon as they take significant damage when trying to harass enemies. A Scout can attack from one position, fire a few shots, move into a new spot (or make the enemy think they're moving while staying in the same cover) then repeat the process, and consistently recover most (if not all) of their shields faster than the Assault. Unless you fill two High and one Low Slot to match the Scout's shield regen stats, and probably another Low Slot for a Stamina mod. Even then, you'll need a Profile Dampener to have as gooda chance as the Scout does of deceiving the enemy or making sure they don't know where you've gone. They can bait enemies into splitting up or spreading out, and they can force cautious players to TRY and run, then chase them down when they do. if an enemy tries to retreat from a Scout trying to do the same thing, there's a better chance of success. To match the Scout's ability to fight this way, you're giving up Slots the Scout will be using for Damage Mods. Quote: Sorry to say but you haven't proved anything at all. And yet it's still more than you've done.
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 1953	Posted - 2013.03.12 07:55:00 - [13] - Quote Sleepy Zan wrote: The fact is you don't need to run at it the same way you do as a scout. Do you understand how well you can tank an assault suit and still position yourself behind a heavy? Just because your not a scout doesn't mean you can't pick up other enemies. With the assault suit you can fit better gear and still ambush the heavy the same way you described a scout would. You don't have to run at it in either suit if you're competent, but you can see it without risk of giving your own position away easier and at longer range as a Scout than you can as an Assault. I'm not saying you CAN'T do it as an Assault, just that it's EASIER to do with a Scout. Quote: If they are in a secure position you have an even harder job to get close enough to them with CQC weapons. But Scouts have several advantages in getting close to them that's more useful against good long-range enemies than the Assault's extra HP. And once close, it's easier to tell what they're doing and whether they're aware and looking for you and plan around the target's actions as a Scout. Quote: I have gone up against some of the best snipers in this game, and from personal experience I can tell you have absolutely no idea what your talking about here. Sniping is what I do and I happen to run a scout suit and do you know what I found from my own results? A-series scout < type-I assault. So because YOU are better with the Assault, and play Sniper in the manner that best suits an Assault suit, the VERY DIFFERENT playstyle that makes a Scout Sniper viable doesn't exist? Sorry, but no. Quote: You don't need to light up enemies all you have to do is call out their position. Since everything your squad sees you see, there is no problem with lighting up red dots. Not even scouts can see everything and verbally pointing out enemies is all that is necessary. Finding enemies and calling them out: Your squad - and ONLY your squad - knows the number and approximate location of the enemies you can see. Others on your team will occasionally see one or two of the enemies marked for a moment on their HUD/minimap. Scouting with a properly-fitted scanning Scout: Your WHOLE TEAM gets exact data on the position and facing of almost every enemy near you, the only exception being an even-better-fitted stealth Scout. Quote: It seems obvious to me at this point you don't know how to play this game and your just spewing out utter bs. Why would you have an assault suit try to be a scout when it's advantages play out even better in a situation like this then a scout can hope to accomplish. It's pointless for me now to bother discussing this with you when your going to make up scenarios in your head where the scout comes out ahead and all other suits loose. I wish you weren't so biased. It seems obvious to me at this point that you're ignoring the value of the advantages Scout suits have because you aren't as good with the suit as you are with an Assault. Nothing wrong with you being better with another suit, but that doesn't negate the fact that I perform better with the Scout and can provide reasons why, all of which you're failing to actually provide any form of argument against. So about that "utter bs"? It's coming from who, exactly? And those situations I'm "making up in my head" are all - ALL - EVERY SINGLE ONE - situations I've found myself in during the game several times as both a Scout and an Assault, and the Scout handles those scenarios better than the Assault for me. I use every suit except a Heavy on a regular basis, and I have a handful of Heavies that I run occasionally as well (cheap ones on a couple of my more commonly-used characters, and an alt I rarely use that's a dedicated Heavy). Notice how I'm explaining that the Scout works better FOR ME, not claiming that it's a better suit. It isn't better than the Assault. It's better at certain things, but the Assault is also better at certain things than the Scout. Just like the Logi suit can kick the stuffing out of any other suit in the right situation. Just like the Heavy can destroy anything else if the situation favours it. There are situations in the game which make every suit the "best" for that particular moment. I frequently find myself in situations where the Scout is the "best" option at that time, and I'm good at putting myself into those situations on a regular basis.
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 1953	Posted - 2013.03.12 08:32:00 - [14] - Quote blue gt wrote: scouts need a speed buff thats what it really comes down to their speed advantage is just not significant enough. a small increase to movement(say 0.5) and a slightly larger increase to sprint(1.0 ish) and scouts would be fine. Realistically its a scaling problem, scouts were nerfed because they used to be better then just about any thing on the field in proto suits and in STD where almost good as an assault(and a lot more fun). They still scale really well but they start out really painful to play with. Its the opposite problems that heavies have, CCP is going to have to revisit how they treat suits to fix this and I have no clue how they will, heavies are easy, heavy modules, but scouts need something that becomes less important not more as you skill into them. As I KEEP saying, the speed advantage ISN'T THEIR PRIMARY ADVANTAGE. It's a minor little thing that helps along with the stamina, mobility, agility, shield regen, scanning and stealth advantages. Speed is only a VERY SMALL part of the equation. Use the OTHER advantages and you're using the Scout right.
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 1953	Posted - 2013.03.12 08:34:00 - [15] - Quote XeroTheBigBoss wrote: DUST Fiend wrote: I think there is a serious lack of appreciation for the scouts mobility, not necessarily its speed. The ability to quickly jump over hindering terrain to disappear is a godsend. Running two enhanced profile dampeners, I very often lose groups of enemies, only to sneak up around behind them to unleash terror on them. Assault Shotgun is definitely the way to go in a one on one fight, but I'm french, and a fair fight is one that I win, soooo...... Again it seems Scouts ONLY weapon of success is shotguns I shouldn't be stuck to only one gun to achieve success I should be able to use a AR just like any other suit. It's NOT just Shotguns though. Whichever weapon you fit on a Scout, you just need a different playstyle from what you have with other suits.
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 1975	Posted - 2013.03.12 17:07:00 - [16] - Quote ZiwZih wrote: Also, Garrett: Cmdr Wand announced that they will look at disparity between KBM and Sixaxis. When you go max DPI which PS3 allows, you definitely turn a bit faster. Now, as a Scout setting that high DPI means you cannot hit anything, but Heavy may come close to top speed and manage his aim. I've actually seen that since I posted earlier. it's interesting. Quote: The dev team will compare turn speeds with kbm and controllers for both infantry and vehicles to see if there are inconsistancies. That doesn't say they'll look at the disparity, which assumes that there is a disparity to look at. It says they'll look to see if there is a disparity or not, which is completely different. With how they've worded that, it's clear that there SHOULDN'T be a difference in max turning speeds between control schemes, and if there is, it's a bug and will be fixed. I haven't personally seen evidence of this, and I haven't seen confirmation from CCP that they consider it any more than a concern to be investigated, so while it's possible it's true, I'm still viewing it as a rumour until I see evidence of it for myself. If and when that happens, cool, but at the moment, I'm happy that CCP are investigating it as a possible problem while people are reporting it as such.
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 1985	Posted - 2013.03.12 19:43:00 - [17] - Quote ZiwZih wrote: Garrett Blacknova wrote: ZiwZih wrote: Also, Garrett: Cmdr Wand announced that they will look at disparity between KBM and Sixaxis. When you go max DPI which PS3 allows, you definitely turn a bit faster. Now, as a Scout setting that high DPI means you cannot hit anything, but Heavy may come close to top speed and manage his aim. I've actually seen that since I posted earlier. it's interesting. Quote: The dev team will compare turn speeds with kbm and controllers for both infantry and vehicles to see if there are inconsistancies. That doesn't say they'll look at the disparity, which assumes that there is a disparity to look at. It says they'll look to see if there is a disparity or not, which is completely different. With how they've worded that, it's clear that there SHOULDN'T be a difference in max turning speeds between control schemes, and if there is, it's a bug and will be fixed. I haven't personally seen evidence of this, and I haven't seen confirmation from CCP that they consider it any more than a concern to be investigated, so while it's possible it's true, I'm still viewing it as a rumour until I see evidence of it for myself. If and when that happens, cool, but at the moment, I'm happy that CCP are investigating it as a possible problem while people are reporting it as such. If you haven't seen, that means you tested? If not, try this: set your DPI on mouse to 3200 DPI (that will be set to 2000 by PS3 if the limit exist at all) and and set mouse sensitivity to highest. Then set your Seixaxis sensitivity to X-Y highest. A Scout using a mouse with this settings is almost impossible to be aimed/played with. Sixaxis is fast but more manageable. There most certainly is disparity. I have a cheap hand-me-down mouse that I use to play DUST. I don't have DPI settings. To try and test this myself, I've had to borrow a proper gaming mouse from a friend, and I didn't get much time to test the game with it. When I tried, there didn't seem to be a significant difference in turn speed as I adjusted the DPI settings, but higher DPI meant I got more fluid and precise control (much like I got while tweaking the PSMove deadzone settings to confirm that they affect the sixaxis controller). I have heard from a few people that this glitch doesn't work with all mice though, so it's not something I can say conclusively. It's entirely possible that I've only missed out on seeing this because it doesn't happen with the mice I've used. But I also haven't seen anyone who looked to be turning outside of the usual turn speeds the game caps you at, so while I MIGHT have had someone do this to me and not noticed, the fact that I haven't noticed means that I don't have any confirmation of it. I think that a faster turn speed is something I'd be likely to notice though, particularly since I've been looking out for it on purpose since hearing about the possibility.