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Garrett Blacknova
Codex Troopers
1892
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Posted - 2013.03.08 13:32:00 -
[1] - Quote
So, we've all been seeing evidence of a possible (probable) upcoming Caldari Heavy suit. There are screenshots of a Caldari AR. There are the old Scrambler Rifle screenshots. There's the "frame size" information that was presented in an interview with IGN.
What's the problem?
SKILLS.
If we have SPs invested in the current Gallente AR, and we're now going to be getting a new Caldari one, but the difference in handling makes it far better-suited to someone who's already spent all their SP on the current AR, what's going to happen?
And more importantly, how about someone who wants to RP as a Caldari, but had to run with an Amarr Heavy suit because it was the only one that could mount their Caldari Forge Gun?
When that Gallente Plasma Cannon shows up, how are Gallente AV players going to feel about all those "wasted" skill points they've had to pour into Caldari tech because they didn't have any AV weapons of their own before?
Will there be some form of SP reset? Or will the skills be re-worked to somehow cover people? Or will it be looked at on a case-by-case basis? Or will we all just be told to HTFU?
How about our Starter Fits? Will everyone be given their Racial suits for Starter Fits? Or will that only happen to new characters? Or will even the new players still have Caldari suits as standard issue for all siituations, and only the racial variant if they're lucky? |
Korvin Lomont
United Pwnage Service RISE of LEGION
8
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Posted - 2013.03.08 13:36:00 -
[2] - Quote
Good questions I have asked that myself countless times. Butt CCP hinted that they may refund your SP so you can respec.
Dev post |
Garrett Blacknova
Codex Troopers
1892
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Posted - 2013.03.08 13:38:00 -
[3] - Quote
Korvin Lomont wrote:Good questions I have asked that myself countless times. Butt CCP hinted that they may refund your SP so you can respec. Dev post That would be a good solution.
If they introduce enough new things (which I think they will), I hope this is what happens. Thanks for the link! |
Jack McReady
A.C.M.E Corp
75
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Posted - 2013.03.08 13:48:00 -
[4] - Quote
there is no reasoning for a refund, the old rifle was not changed in any way and you can still use it. |
Vaerana Myshtana
Bojo's School of the Trades
326
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Posted - 2013.03.08 13:49:00 -
[5] - Quote
It's also worth noting that in EVE, weapons skills are only specialized racially. While the ships are race specific, the skill "Small Hybrid Turret" is race-neutral. You can use Caldari Railguns and Gallente Blasters equally well.
I would not be surprised to see the "Assault Rifle" skill work for everyone, but then have "Assault Rifle Specialization" separate into "Gallente AR Specialiation", "Caldari AR Specialization", etc. |
Needless Sacermendor
Red Fox Brigade
215
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Posted - 2013.03.08 13:50:00 -
[6] - Quote
Yeah a skill point reallocation hasn't been ruled out if needs be, but they've said they won't wipe again.
Alternatively as I've suggested in previous posts they could allocate your current "Caldari Assault Rifle" points over to the new "Assault Rifle Operation" skill which would be the one that unlocks the different racial variants at different levels.
So the Caldari could be unlocked at level 1 and say the Amarr one at level 5 ... the new "Assault Rifle Proficiency" skill would apply bonuses to all Assault Rifles and the "Amarr Assault Rifle Proficiency" would give a bonus to just Amarr Rifles.
So your currently allocated points would give you unlocks to start training the better Factions version of the weapon or suit in question, we'd all then have to buy a skillbook and start training to use those weapons again, but we'd all be in the same boat and those heavily invested in a particular skill have the benefit of already unlocked the better set of that weapon/suit type.
Hope that makes enough sense ... it's just an alternative way they could implement the racial variants without needing a sp reallocation. |
Aeon Amadi
WarRavens
1055
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Posted - 2013.03.08 13:52:00 -
[7] - Quote
Vaerana Myshtana wrote:It's also worth noting that in EVE, weapons skills are only specialized racially. While the ships are race specific, the skill "Small Hybrid Turret" is race-neutral. You can use Caldari Railguns and Gallente Blasters equally well.
I would not be surprised to see the "Assault Rifle" skill work for everyone, but then have "Assault Rifle Specialization" separate into "Gallente AR Specialiation", "Caldari AR Specialization", etc.
This would be the best route and most true to Eve's style.
I don't like the idea of an SP Reset because it gets people into the habit of using it as a crutch. Whenever new content comes out in Eve Online, we don't get respecs - we have to grit our teeth and train up the skills anyway.
Think the same should work in Dust 514. |
Garrett Blacknova
Codex Troopers
1892
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Posted - 2013.03.08 13:55:00 -
[8] - Quote
Jack McReady wrote:there is no reasoning for a refund, the old rifle was not changed in any way and you can still use it. For RPing players, there's reason to question why they're forced to keep skills invested in what - at the time - was their ONLY option for their chosen playstyle if it clashes with their character's racial affiliation.
Particularly with Dropsuits, where people have literally invested MILLIONS of SP into something that will be worth nothing to them any more. |
Monty Mole Clone
Shiv M
11
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Posted - 2013.03.08 14:15:00 -
[9] - Quote
no one held a scrambler to there head, they should get **** all back. im waiting for the amarr scout suit, been at a dissadvantage since the start of the build because im not stupid enough to put points into stuff im not going to use. HTFU as people like to say |
Garrett Blacknova
Codex Troopers
1892
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Posted - 2013.03.08 14:22:00 -
[10] - Quote
I've got 2 characters who have been waiting on Caldari Scouts instead of Skilling into Gallente, and someone waiting on Amarr non-Heavy suits before skilling into any suits.
I'm asking to see what CCP say, and hear people's opinions, not because I feel like I'm going to be horribly disadvantaged by this.
I'm not big into the RP side of things, it just seemed like a question that needed to be asked.
That's why I'm asking "what's going to happen?" instead of crying for SP resets. It would be nice on at least a partial basis, or with an option for it at least, but I can work around whatever decision is made just fine. I just think it's a good idea to be prepared, and asking sooner rather than later makes "prepared" more likely to happen. |
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Iron Wolf Saber
BetaMax.
3032
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Posted - 2013.03.08 14:32:00 -
[11] - Quote
There will be a racial equivalent of every 'platform'
So every race will have an assault suit every race will have a HAV every race will have a MCC
It wont be that one race will get a Logistics suit if they do its not for very long.
Considering the point in time in development though there is much back log and everything still demanding its own variant to answer its call. Also the variants needs different stats, slots, visuals and the most distinctive of all suit bonuses.
There however wont be racial equivalents in weapon systems. For example there wont be a Minmatar Forge gun, but the Minmatar would answer that with a heavy Reconciles Rifle to nail vehicles with a heavy AV shot. This is also why none of the weapons have racial names on them either. |
Nirwanda Vaughns
Planetary Response Organisation Test Friends Please Ignore
0
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Posted - 2013.03.08 16:32:00 -
[12] - Quote
The general hint about SPs and any new items is that instead of a full char wipe come retail release (rumoured oct '13) then the SPs you have now (minus the 500k and skills u have from your starter fits) will be set to zero and your current SPs set as unallocated allowing you to setup your char with the full range of skills come retail.
As was mentioned by Eterne the beta is a testing area and so its unfair to ask you to spend sps testing everything and then leaving you stuck with swarm launcher 3 when you dont want it come retail.
tbh i would say thats a pretty fair move and would be most logical idea. also your starter skills may vary slightly dependant on race (as in eve) so u may start with minmatar scout or gallente heavy depending on race and starter 'type' |
Iron Wolf Saber
BetaMax.
3036
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Posted - 2013.03.08 16:36:00 -
[13] - Quote
Nirwanda Vaughns wrote:The general hint about SPs and any new items is that instead of a full char wipe come retail release (rumoured oct '13) then the SPs you have now (minus the 500k and skills u have from your starter fits) will be set to zero and your current SPs set as unallocated allowing you to setup your char with the full range of skills come retail.
As was mentioned by Eterne the beta is a testing area and so its unfair to ask you to spend sps testing everything and then leaving you stuck with swarm launcher 3 when you dont want it come retail.
tbh i would say thats a pretty fair move and would be most logical idea. also your starter skills may vary slightly dependant on race (as in eve) so u may start with minmatar scout or gallente heavy depending on race and starter 'type'
There is going to be no more skill resets of any sorts including full refunding. Every scenario from here on out will be on a case by case basis. |
Garrett Blacknova
Codex Troopers
1898
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 16:41:00 -
[14] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Nirwanda Vaughns wrote:The general hint about SPs and any new items is that instead of a full char wipe come retail release (rumoured oct '13) then the SPs you have now (minus the 500k and skills u have from your starter fits) will be set to zero and your current SPs set as unallocated allowing you to setup your char with the full range of skills come retail.
As was mentioned by Eterne the beta is a testing area and so its unfair to ask you to spend sps testing everything and then leaving you stuck with swarm launcher 3 when you dont want it come retail.
tbh i would say thats a pretty fair move and would be most logical idea. also your starter skills may vary slightly dependant on race (as in eve) so u may start with minmatar scout or gallente heavy depending on race and starter 'type' There is going to be no more skill resets of any sorts including full refunding. Every scenario from here on out will be on a case by case basis and the developers would decide what is fair. If you look to eve for example they deleted skills, and refunded the skill points they had. They also racialed out destroyers and battlecrusiers, a mistake that should have been done in the very beginning when there was a generic skill but racial ships. So now when they split that skill apart they're going ot issue skill points to allow previous flying to be allowed still. In our case if they add amarr assault, gallente assault and minmatar assault for example they're not going to give us the SP for prototype just because we had caldari assault V. Its likely they'll refund it and let you pick what race you wanted ultimately. Post #2 in this thread provided a source stating that CCP might consider refunding spent SPs. Got a source to counter that one? |
Your Absolut End
SVER True Blood Unclaimed.
14
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Posted - 2013.03.08 17:31:00 -
[15] - Quote
I think one of the Devs mentioned that.
He sayd something like "If there's no crucial error we will not have another Sp reset."
That's the reason why I am spending my SP right now on side skills like weapon stuff and dropsuit modules. I buy the protos by aurum, I'd rather loose some money than my SP, because this damn Protos just cost way to much SP. Anyways, it's a nice strategy from CCP to earn some money I think. |
Iron Wolf Saber
BetaMax.
3038
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Posted - 2013.03.08 17:34:00 -
[16] - Quote
Garrett Blacknova wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Nirwanda Vaughns wrote:The general hint about SPs and any new items is that instead of a full char wipe come retail release (rumoured oct '13) then the SPs you have now (minus the 500k and skills u have from your starter fits) will be set to zero and your current SPs set as unallocated allowing you to setup your char with the full range of skills come retail.
As was mentioned by Eterne the beta is a testing area and so its unfair to ask you to spend sps testing everything and then leaving you stuck with swarm launcher 3 when you dont want it come retail.
tbh i would say thats a pretty fair move and would be most logical idea. also your starter skills may vary slightly dependant on race (as in eve) so u may start with minmatar scout or gallente heavy depending on race and starter 'type' There is going to be no more skill resets of any sorts including full refunding. Every scenario from here on out will be on a case by case basis and the developers would decide what is fair. If you look to eve for example they deleted skills, and refunded the skill points they had. They also racialed out destroyers and battlecrusiers, a mistake that should have been done in the very beginning when there was a generic skill but racial ships. So now when they split that skill apart they're going ot issue skill points to allow previous flying to be allowed still. In our case if they add amarr assault, gallente assault and minmatar assault for example they're not going to give us the SP for prototype just because we had caldari assault V. Its likely they'll refund it and let you pick what race you wanted ultimately. Post #2 in this thread provided a source stating that CCP might consider refunding spent SPs. Got a source to counter that one?
I dont have my quick link posts but there wont be a full refund that is for sure. Partials maybe and it was talked about. |
Ten-Sidhe
Osmon Surveillance Caldari State
427
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 17:47:00 -
[17] - Quote
CCP didn't say they will, they said they reserve the option to do or not do it at their option. |
Nirwanda Vaughns
Planetary Response Organisation Test Friends Please Ignore
1
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Posted - 2013.03.08 17:52:00 -
[18] - Quote
There wont be any more full resets no but it was a post by Eterne stating that resetting just skills to zero and setting them all to unallocated so you can rebuild char was the favorable option.
CCP Eterne wrote:Exmaple Core wrote:no. there will be no SP resets what-so-ever Just a note, we've said we won't reset skill points to 0 (without a HUGE GIANT CURRENTLY-UNFATHOMABLE reason). There might still conceivably be a time where we reset skill point allocation. Edit: Edited to add in caveat. |
Iron Wolf Saber
BetaMax.
3039
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 17:53:00 -
[19] - Quote
Nirwanda Vaughns wrote:There wont be any more full resets no but it was a post by Eterne stating that resetting just skills to zero and setting them all to unallocated so you can rebuild char was the favorable option. CCP Eterne wrote:Exmaple Core wrote:no. there will be no SP resets what-so-ever Just a note, we've said we won't reset skill points to 0 (without a HUGE GIANT CURRENTLY-UNFATHOMABLE reason). There might still conceivably be a time where we reset skill point allocation. Edit: Edited to add in caveat.
While favorable they can still decide not to. In other words don't bet on it happening, its a very bad bet similar made by all those aurum blowers after the server move jan 10th. Now they're all SoL. |
Nstomper
Th3-ReSiStAnCe-SEC.0
206
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Posted - 2013.03.08 18:32:00 -
[20] - Quote
maybe they will have some sort of skill respecing that when they do release racial variants for all suits , weapons , you will get all your skills points back and then you will have to spec into your racial variants of things |
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iceyburnz
Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation
307
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Posted - 2013.03.08 18:46:00 -
[21] - Quote
Garrett Blacknova wrote:So, we've all been seeing evidence of a possible (probable) upcoming Caldari Heavy suit.
What evidence?
Could someone explain please?
|
crazy space 1
ZionTCD Legacy Rising
909
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 21:22:00 -
[22] - Quote
Jack McReady wrote:there is no reasoning for a refund, the old rifle was not changed in any way and you can still use it. If there were only missles in the eve online beta, and then 3 more weapon systems were introduced, I'm prety sure they would let you respec, or else you'd have to wait to use them becuase everyone would have missiles maxxed out.
Eve online has done sp resets on skills that change drastically. I still have 2 million so saved up for WiS, yeah yeah I know. |
crazy space 1
ZionTCD Legacy Rising
909
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 21:23:00 -
[23] - Quote
iceyburnz wrote:Garrett Blacknova wrote:So, we've all been seeing evidence of a possible (probable) upcoming Caldari Heavy suit.
What evidence? Could someone explain please? um the evidence would be ccp telling us that there will be a minmatar heavy, an ammar heavy, a caldari heavy, and a gallente heavy.
People really don't get what the beta tag is for, sigh. |
Zekain Kade
BetaMax.
955
|
Posted - 2013.03.08 21:25:00 -
[24] - Quote
This caldari AR looks more like an SMG to me. Its too slender to be an assault rifle. |
Garrett Blacknova
Codex Troopers
1909
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Posted - 2013.03.09 09:34:00 -
[25] - Quote
crazy space 1 wrote:iceyburnz wrote:Garrett Blacknova wrote:So, we've all been seeing evidence of a possible (probable) upcoming Caldari Heavy suit.
What evidence? Could someone explain please? um the evidence would be ccp telling us that there will be a minmatar heavy, an ammar heavy, a caldari heavy, and a gallente heavy. People really don't get what the beta tag is for, sigh. And the multiple videos showing gloves that look like the ones on an Assault suit (Caldari) holding a Forge Gun, and the video announcement (now on the CCP YouTube as well as IGN) that there will be racial variants of each "frame size" (Small = Scout and three unknowns, Medium = Assault/Logi and two unknowns, Large = Heavy and three unknowns). |
Aeon Amadi
WarRavens
1062
|
Posted - 2013.03.09 09:36:00 -
[26] - Quote
Garrett Blacknova wrote:crazy space 1 wrote:iceyburnz wrote:Garrett Blacknova wrote:So, we've all been seeing evidence of a possible (probable) upcoming Caldari Heavy suit.
What evidence? Could someone explain please? um the evidence would be ccp telling us that there will be a minmatar heavy, an ammar heavy, a caldari heavy, and a gallente heavy. People really don't get what the beta tag is for, sigh. And the multiple videos showing gloves that look like the ones on an Assault suit (Caldari) holding a Forge Gun, and the video announcement (now on the CCP YouTube as well as IGN) that there will be racial variants of each "frame size" (Small = Scout and three unknowns, Medium = Assault/Logi and two unknowns, Large = Heavy and three unknowns).
They'd better make a new model for it. If it's just the Assault Suit re-hashed stat-wise it's going to be really discouraging. I understand it takes a lot to develop a game but if you're going to do it, do it right. |
Garrett Blacknova
Codex Troopers
1909
|
Posted - 2013.03.09 09:48:00 -
[27] - Quote
Aeon Amadi wrote:Garrett Blacknova wrote:crazy space 1 wrote:iceyburnz wrote:Garrett Blacknova wrote:So, we've all been seeing evidence of a possible (probable) upcoming Caldari Heavy suit.
What evidence? Could someone explain please? um the evidence would be ccp telling us that there will be a minmatar heavy, an ammar heavy, a caldari heavy, and a gallente heavy. People really don't get what the beta tag is for, sigh. And the multiple videos showing gloves that look like the ones on an Assault suit (Caldari) holding a Forge Gun, and the video announcement (now on the CCP YouTube as well as IGN) that there will be racial variants of each "frame size" (Small = Scout and three unknowns, Medium = Assault/Logi and two unknowns, Large = Heavy and three unknowns). They'd better make a new model for it. If it's just the Assault Suit re-hashed stat-wise it's going to be really discouraging. I understand it takes a lot to develop a game but if you're going to do it, do it right. Given that they need a "small frame" Caldari suit as well, and have to do the same to Gallente, Minmatar and Amarr, I can't really see them re-using the Heavy model as a small frame. |
Aeon Amadi
WarRavens
1063
|
Posted - 2013.03.09 10:11:00 -
[28] - Quote
Garrett Blacknova wrote: Given that they need a "small frame" Caldari suit as well, and have to do the same to Gallente, Minmatar and Amarr, I can't really see them re-using the Heavy model as a small frame.
Think you have the same issue I do in that it's hard to convey what you're saying, lol.
At first I was like, "when the blue blazes did anyone mention 'small' size suit?"
Then I realized, "Oh, he's saying that it wouldn't make sense if the Caldari 'Heavy' frame was just a re-hash as it would look ridiculous for an Amarr 'Small' frame to have the same model as a heavy and be dashing about the field like Sonic The Hedgehog."
Sooooo, yes. I agree. Whole-heartedly. +1. |
iceyburnz
Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation
311
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Posted - 2013.03.09 11:24:00 -
[29] - Quote
crazy space 1 wrote:iceyburnz wrote:Garrett Blacknova wrote:So, we've all been seeing evidence of a possible (probable) upcoming Caldari Heavy suit.
What evidence? Could someone explain please? um the evidence would be ccp telling us that there will be a minmatar heavy, an ammar heavy, a caldari heavy, and a gallente heavy. People really don't get what the beta tag is for, sigh.
Actually what I asked had nothing to do with a beta tag.
I was asking for evidence of a Caldari Heavy. Really I was hoping for pictures I may have missed, because I enjoy CCP concept art. Perhaps I should just have asked for pictures.
It was a simple request, no need to passively aggressively imply stupidity on my part. Saying stuff like that is how flame wars start. Please restrain your inner troll. Cheers.
Im aware of all the evidence thats been mentioned so far. Dissappoint at lack of visual evidence
Oh and ccp are really proud of thier art department, design accumen and assets, given that CCP was founded by graphic designer, its part of thier game design ethods. There is 0 chance of using the same suits models for different frame sizes. |
Th3rdSun
L.O.T.I.S. Legacy Rising
324
|
Posted - 2013.03.09 16:13:00 -
[30] - Quote
As long as I can get a proper sight on my AR,I don't really care about anything else. |
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