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Garrett Blacknova
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1861
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Posted - 2013.03.06 06:45:00 -
[1] - Quote
fred orpaul wrote:Shutter Fly wrote:I've always seen the difference between shotgun and SMG to be reaction time/situational awareness vs. precision/target acquisition respectively.
I have an extremely fast reaction time and play very instinctively, but I couldn't reliably keep a target in my sights if my life depended on it. Me trying to play with an SMG is a flailing mess of fail, I'm much better at taking the one split second shot.
You won't ever see me using an AR or SMG, but I don't underestimate their effectiveness. The shotgun is extremely useful at low tiers and low skill levels, but it's effectiveness increases linearly at best. The SMG seems to start very low and increase exponentially as you reach higher weapon tiers and invest in proficiency skills. while this might be true the SMG is too little too late, you get less dps then any other gun and while its easier to apply said DPS, scouts kinda rely on getting in and out quickly and the SMG just does not provide. SMG Scouts are GREAT for harrassing enemies and racking up Assists while being a REALLY good distraction. And if you're good at getting in close, even a Standard SMG can get a couple of kills per reload. I sometimes get 3 kills with my Toxin when I'm running it. Usually as a backup to my Shotgun, except that by "backup" I mean "I run around with the SMG out and only pull the Shotgun when I can get in close to the target". |
Garrett Blacknova
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1861
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Posted - 2013.03.06 10:10:00 -
[2] - Quote
I just realised why all the good Scouts are disappearing. We didn't go anywhere. We just reduced our Scan Profile. |
Garrett Blacknova
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1862
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Posted - 2013.03.06 11:21:00 -
[3] - Quote
Jack McReady wrote:SMG has low range, low accuracy and lower dps than anything. you have to dump alot SP into it to make it decent and still anyone using it over AR should rethink it, AR offers more damage per clip, fires just as long before reload, reloads just as fast, offers more range, more dps and more flexilibility. SMG is also weaker against shields and type 2 assault (the most common suit on the field) has big shields. SMG is for people that cannot aim up close and want to spray because they lack skill btw specialist shotgun is way better then the SMG, minimal fitting requirements and you can still kill stuff faster than with the SMG up to 15 meters due to the fall off mechanics. SMG is terrible outside 10 meters due to the accuracy. the shotgun on the other hand will two shot anything at that range before the SMG goes through the shields. oh, not to mention that the breach SMG is the worst weapon ingame, 30% less dps than regular SMG, 50% less than an AR and it only gets a slight accuracy boost Toxin vs. GEK or Duvolle in CQC range.
If I'm using the Toxin (SMG Ops level 2 or 3, depending on which character I'm running), and I'm not going Scout vs. Heavy, then the Toxin wins at least 80% of the time. If I'm using the GEK or Duvolle, then the Toxin wins at least 70% of the time. If I'm watching a fight between players with Toxins and GEKs or Duvolles, the Toxin will win more often.
At the longer ends of SMG range, using the sights on the gun can provide a MASSIVE accuracy improvement, and in my experience, that accuracy buff combined with good aim on the move can tip the balance in my favour pretty consistently. In mid-range for SMGs, it practically doubles the damage output when aiming for a single target.
EDIT: There's also the fact that - as I've tried to argue in the past - lower precision can be an advantage in CQC. When you're in close, it's impossible to always anticipate a good player's movements and correct your aim, but having a weapon with spread like the SMG has gives you a wider margin for error when trying to follow an erratic target. Misreading your opponent when using a high-spread SMG only reduces your damage instead of cutting you off completely, and can usually be recovered from faster than missing with an AR as well. |
Garrett Blacknova
Codex Troopers
1862
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Posted - 2013.03.06 13:09:00 -
[4] - Quote
Jack McReady wrote:if you cant achieve atleast 30% hit rate with the AR up close then you are terrible by FPS standards. Yes, but you achieve that accuracy by NOT continuously firing, meaning you're still losing out on your DPS even if you're not losing as much in your damage per reload. The SMG with 30% accuracy will still be dealing more damage, faster, and will get the kill first in most cases, even when it's cheap Scout vs. expensive Assault.
Quote:you also mentioned SMG sights, I hope you are joking... SMG sights slow down turn speed massively, even a heavy can outrun it. In CQC, yeah. At the kind of range where the accuracy improvement is useful, Scouts have to sprint to beat your turning speed. I wasn't talking about using SMG sights in CQC, because I'm not an idiot. Sorry to disappoint.
Quote:note that I have alot more SP invested in SMG than you and the AR is still superior with zero SP investment. And you know this how? I've told you the SP investment I have into SMGs in the two characters I use who DON'T specialise in that weapon (one is a Shotgunner, the other a tank driver). Just because I'm using examples where I haven't invested NEARLY as much SP as my opponents NEEDED to have used to get their weapon of choice, doesn't mean I haven't skilled into SMGs properly.
Quote:I suggest you to test this out by yourself: put points into shotgun and into primary weapon sharpshooter skill (but I guess you already have it anyway). take the specialist shotgun which has better fitting requirements than SMG (yeah the specialist shotgun, a primary weapon, is easier to fit than the SMG). go to a heavy suit that is 15m away from you. Now try to kill him. do the same with assault SMG and you will see how fast the heavy drops against the shotgun compared to the SMG. the shotgun has like 30 meters falloff, that means, it still deals incredible damage at 20 meter range despite having only 9 meter optimal. the SMGs accuracy and weakness against shields is a massive letdown in a game were most fights happen at around 20 meter range and the most common suit is the caldari assault type 2 with massive shields. there is not point to use a "close combat" weapon like the SMG when you can simply take the specialist shotgun with even better fitting requirements. The Specialist Shotgun is nice. And you're TOTALLY right about the 24 CPU it requires being less than the 15 CPU required by the equivalent SMG, or the 18 CPU required by the Assault variant. It's also SUCH a big surprise that a primary CQC weapon is better for CQC than a Sidearm with a similar range profile. And please, tell me, exactly which suit are you using that allows you to pair that Shotgun with a Sniper Rifle or a Swarm Launcher? |
Garrett Blacknova
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1864
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Posted - 2013.03.06 15:50:00 -
[5] - Quote
Jack McReady wrote:Why would I fire in bursts close combat? The AR can hip fire continuously just fine. Obviously haven't played against someone with good CQC skills if you're hitting consistently with hipfire in close quarters.
Quote:At ~15 meters range, heavy outsprints SMG sights turn speed. Type 2 suits and scout can simply outrun it without sprinting. I am talking about forward speed movement, not sidestep movement but this illustrates how horrible the sights actually are. And that's why taking a comment about using the sights at EXTREME SMG RANGE out of context didn't help you at all. I never said a word about trying to use sights in close range. Or even mid-range for that matter.
Quote:When is CPU an issue for you? you can lower the CPU requirement by alot with skills for weapons and alot of other modules, you cant do the same with PG, my fittings are never tight on CPU. I know scouts CPU is low but it is manageable after skilling up those skills that lower CPU requirement. So you're saying there are no PG increasing modules? And no skills that reduce PG use of any modules a Scout could conceivably be fitting? And ignoring the question about pairing the Shotgun with a Sniper Rifle or Swarm Launcher? Or did you forget that those are fitting requirements too? |
Garrett Blacknova
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1871
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Posted - 2013.03.07 08:51:00 -
[6] - Quote
Jack McReady wrote:and now, as evidence I present you a nice video made by someone else. at around 0:50 it shows how bad the SMG really is UP CLOSE AGAINST a STATIONARY target and at around 20 meters range: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qIJkDmzRK_A => at around 0:50 he engages a type 2 suit, stationary target. starts to shot him, it takes too long to even break the shield UP CLOSE on a STATIONARY target hitting every bullet, the assault suit simple walks way one second after realizing that someone is attacking him. few seconds later he engages the assault with no shields again at about 20 meter range, he uses sights to hit him but deals almost no damage cause the spread is too large. he gets hit 3 times from the AR hip fire and runs for his life. yeah SMG sights "help" alot at range, when you deal no damage Nice example.
When you say "up close" it looks like you mean "up close" as in "well out of CQC range and far enough that it's worth using sights on a stationary target" so yeah, that's up close now. And I'm assuming that almost half the shots missing and none of them landing as headshots because the guy can't keep his aim on target the whole time was meant to somehow count as "hitting every bullet", so with those assumptions covered...
You're right, taking an undamaged SHIELD-TANKED Assault suit into armour damage in less than a second is definitely "too long" and "dealing no damage".
Also, I like how you say he "simply walks away" when he immediately ducked into cover, knowing where he enemy was shooting from, and kept the cover between himself and the attacker until he could escape - as you'd describe it, "running for his life". As well he should when his suit is weighted in favour of shields as protection and already down to armour before he had time to react. |
Garrett Blacknova
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1876
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Posted - 2013.03.07 12:06:00 -
[7] - Quote
Jack McReady wrote:so you tell us, that if we are 2 meter infront of someone we should use sights with SMG also he did not ducked for cover, he walked away without sprinting after getting hit for 1 second of full dps of the SMG but because of SMGs weakness against shields he barely broke his shields. SMG could not finish him off later because the spread made him miss alot of bullets at that range. scrambler would kill him on objective and one shot him with a clear headshot. shotgun would one shot this guy on objective, and 2 shot him later without shields. AR would leave him deep into armor and finish him off later. the spread makes the SMG useless beyond 10 meters, you can deny it as much as you want, but the video shows truth well.
That was closer to 15m than 2m. Probably actually 10m, but why don't I play your game for a bit?
And your "20m" shots were more like 30. If I wanted to be reasonable, I'd say 25, but why don't I take things as far as you did with your 2m claim, and call it 50m? That sounds fair, right?
And he walked in a direction which PUT THE OBJECTIVE BETWEEN HIM AND THE SHOOTER ALMOST INSTANTLY. Thus making it an effective "duck for cover" as I said. Particularly effective given the fact that his attacker was aiming the wrong way by the time he moved, anticipating a move away from the cover instead of into it, and moving in a direction other than where the shots were going means he's even less likely to take damage regardless of the cover he was aiming for as soon as he started moving.
And it was definitely NOT "full DPS" when at the same range, a player with good aim can consistently have ALL their shots (instead of barely more than half) hitting the target and more than half of those hitting the head for more damage than those bodyshots. A Scrambler Pistol, aimed as well as that SMG was, and with MORE SP investment than that SMG needed, would also land the same amount of headshots (NONE), and wouldn't even break the shields before running out of ammo and needing to reload, allowing the Assault time to turn, shoot him in the head with the AR, and get a clean kill that the SMG didn't give him an option for. If it was a player with better aim, then it would be an unfair comparison. You're comparing a player with good ranged combat skills using a weapon better-suited to that situation with a player who has good situational awareness but terrible aim, using a weapon that better plays to their strengths. A good player knows their limits, and can work within them. This guy isn't good enough at going for headshots to be effective with a Scrambler Pistol. To be perfectly honest, neither am I, but I'm better at it than he is. I think he's possibly a bit better at taking advantage of cover than I am though. |
Garrett Blacknova
Codex Troopers
1878
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Posted - 2013.03.07 14:51:00 -
[8] - Quote
Jack McReady wrote:Garrett Blacknova wrote: That was closer to 15m than 2m. Probably actually 10m, but why don't I play your game for a bit?
attacker was aiming the wrong way by the time he moved,
now you claim this is 15-10 meters away and he aimed in the wrong direction sure that 3 meters are magically 10-15 meters and he wasnt aiming at him properly at all, but oh wait the video shows something else https://www.dropbox.com/s/9n4k18aswsyueyk/Clipboard01.jpg yeah that is "totally" 10 meters away and he is "totally" not aiming at him hahaha no word can describe your cluelessness but I guess ignorance is a blessing in your case Lets look at the position he was firing from - but BEFORE he scoped in (he didn't move closer, he ONLY used the sights, which ZOOM YOUR VIEW IN): Link. That definitely looks a lot like 3m. You're totally right.
Now lets look at how "on-target" he was as his target started to move: Link.
Yep. On-target. Definitely. |
Garrett Blacknova
Codex Troopers
1878
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Posted - 2013.03.07 16:18:00 -
[9] - Quote
Jack McReady wrote:Garrett Blacknova wrote:Lets look at the position he was firing from - but BEFORE he scoped in (he didn't move closer, he ONLY used the sights, which ZOOM YOUR VIEW IN): Link.That definitely looks a lot like 3m. You're totally right. Now lets look at how "on-target" he was as his target started to move: Link.Yep. On-target. Definitely. your first screenshots shows him walking up to him your second screenshot shows the assault guy walking away after receiving bullets for over a second. My first shot shows him right as he's about to scope in, at which point he moves less than 1m forward while firing. Try actually watching the video a second time instead of assuming you processed it all perfectly the first time. I've re-watched it several times to be as clear as possible on what's happening. You obviously haven't, or you wouldn't be missing all the points where you're so wrong it should be painful.
My second pic shows how far off his aim had been BEFORE the target started to move. I couldn't get exactly the right timing (I tried several times without the dodgy button on this laptop's trackpad letting me catch the moment I wanted), but he started to turn his aim to the right just BEFORE the Assault moved to the left instead - heading IMMEDIATELY for the objective TO TAKE COVER FROM THE NEAR-LETHAL SMG FIRE. In case you didn't notice, the Assault's armour dropped HARD with only a single SMG round hitting it. The guy is very visibly shield-tanked, with probably minimal, if any, buffs to his armour (passive skills at most, no mods). Even when he was taking fire that you admit is being attempted at long range for the SMG, and only takes one bullet, there's a clearly-visible drop in the Assault suit's armour, in spite of partial damage going into the shields that had just started to regen when the shot connected.
And here's something that someone with your attitude might say to you if they'd actually watched the video through more than once:
Quote:so what is your point again? that you are a welp full of ignorance? what is even more amusing is, that you still try to argue about something that you cant argue, everyone can check the video and see that you are full of bs your troll posts dont help you in anyway, you just make yourself look stupid. I'm not that rude though, so instead I'll just reiterate that you might stop making yourself look so confused if you try rewatching your own "evidence" and see what really happened. Also, if you're going to call someone "ignorant" you should probably spell "whelp" correctly when it's used in the same sentence. |
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