DUST Search - Power disparity and new players

Nguruthos IX wrote:

Fraceska wrote:

I am learning to pilot in this game it gets shot down so very quickly (if I don't wreck it first lol!). So again this is where that balancing issue between open maps and closed maps. Guns and their effective counters.

Perhaps all it will take is opening of the maps. But perhaps it won't. Either way the tiered system will allow for more competitive play anyway with all the high end players in low-sec with the best gear for the most profitable wars. Just like EVE-Online and I have no problem with that. But don't throw new people into that and expect them to have fun.

Its like going into a fleet battle with a new Tristian with a starter fit and your facing down a Battlecruiser. It may be fun and hilarious for the BC pilot but that person who just spent all their starting mission ISK on that frigate and fitting is pretty pissed off.

I mean yeah but the worst that can happen here is they get upset at kdr. If they don't feel good enough to hold onto gear don't buy it

isnt that the first rule of eve. Don't play with things you can't afford to lose?


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Fraceska Opus Arcana Orion Empire 0	Posted - 2013.03.02 21:18:00 - [1] - Quote I have played EVE-Online for a very long time and I understand that EVE had a very steep learning curve but it had safe areas were the more experienced players could not access without great risk to themselves. The setting itself is very awesome. So when I started playing Dust not to long ago I've come to a realization that this game is not balanced between new and old players. You click find a match that first time you can be going against people who've played since the beginning with millions of SP under their belts and all the high meta-level gear to go with it. So here you are with starting SP and militia gear, maybe even a few friends to set out into the expanse universe that is EVE. But then you begin to realize that you stand no chance against people who are in higher end gear with weapons that cut through your militia armor like a hot knife through butter and that your starting weapons barely dent their shields or armor. To say that a knowledge of maps and tactics can offset that remember that people are coming into this brand new and have no such knowledge about how EVE/Dust is with character progression and where to put skills for the most return. When I started EVE it took 3 tries to get the Race/Faction/Attribute point spread right so my character could actually do stuff, and then trained the learning skills to be able to learn things in a reasonable time frame, but again I had friendly zones were experienced players could not easily reach. My hope would be that CCP addresses the parity disparity between people and squads before mashing them all together. Such a brutal first few times combine with a steep learning curve will drive people away from this game. The only reason I still play is I understand how the game is set-up and what it takes to become good at it.
Fraceska Opus Arcana Orion Empire 1	Posted - 2013.03.02 21:44:00 - [2] - Quote Nguruthos IX wrote: Um, I'm not sure I see the problem. Every single level in this game will be a 100% safe zone. If you're using free equipment. So... Doesn't that mean players are in 100% control over how much risk they want to put themselves and where? What does it matter if its free if you can barely hurt another player in more advanced gear without the assist which nets less WP than a real kill? I am not crying about it, just an observation that my friends who play more mainstream FPS games won't care for Dust due to its learning curve and gear difference.
Fraceska Opus Arcana Orion Empire 2	Posted - 2013.03.02 21:59:00 - [3] - Quote N1ck Comeau wrote: I see threads like this all the time, why shoulo'nt a experienced player be better in the game the a new player thats like comparing a pro basketball player to an average adult. If a new player wants to get better he will have to play to get better. you don't gain any skill from playing enemies worse then you or even the same level In business you need to appeal to the widest market possible to remain a viable company. Alienating a potential customer base to let the experienced players feel good about themselves by showing newer customers "how the game is played" you ruin your survivability. I would want to see CCPs surveys that displays playability and likability for Dust 514 divided out between new and old players and see if your assumption holds up under an accurate business model. I don't believe that it will.
Fraceska Opus Arcana Orion Empire 2	Posted - 2013.03.02 22:09:00 - [4] - Quote N1ck Comeau wrote: I'm just saying i believe its fine the way it is. I'm a good player better then average in my opinion and i can still get wrecked sometimes. Your idea is a good one but in all honesty they don't need to change it at all new players will deal with the troubles of facing tougher enemies And with that mindset how do you intend to keep your player base intact? How will you attract more players? And once you get them to try it out, how will you keep them from playing when their first few dozen games will go poorly unless they get matched with a really good team on their side? Me personally? I don't mind it so much because I remember gate camping in EVE and blasting away so it is like karma and that's fine. But to people who don't have such a mindset the game would prove incredibly frustrating and unfair very quickly.
Fraceska Opus Arcana Orion Empire 2	Posted - 2013.03.02 22:28:00 - [5] - Quote Nguruthos IX wrote: Whatever that thing is where people 1 shot me from 10 feet away in a second is lame. But I don't mind it because A: maps will get larger B: If i really just wanted to not get owned I'd play more tactically. A. Maps will indeed get larger but then those who have maxed out SP for snipers, scout armor and cloak will just simply roll over those newer people who don't know what to look for. The development team will need to very carefully balance LoS. Got to make it fair to both sides otherwise it will just be dueling snipers for 3+km away because that would then be the only viable way to survive if it is to open. If it is to cluttered then why be a sniper at all? Which then shotguns/heavies camping around tight corners would come to dominate. No one would win and all the time time they spent trying to make each niche fun and viable will be wasted. So even with expanded map sizes there should be a tiered combat system. B. So how is spawning beside an enemy and getting killed instantly have anything to do with or without tactics? That is another big thing I believe needs to be worked on is the ease in which a team can get spawned trapped. I die once near the end of the game but because of spawn traps I suddenly have 5+ deaths at the end of a match? I understand that this game is still in beta but it is clear they have a ways to go. But EVE-Online is like one of my favorite games ever so I have faith CCP will do well by it.
Fraceska Opus Arcana Orion Empire 2	Posted - 2013.03.02 22:39:00 - [6] - Quote I am learning to pilot in this game it gets shot down so very quickly (if I don't wreck it first lol!). So again this is where that balancing issue between open maps and closed maps. Guns and their effective counters. Perhaps all it will take is opening of the maps. But perhaps it won't. Either way the tiered system will allow for more competitive play anyway with all the high end players in low-sec with the best gear for the most profitable wars. Just like EVE-Online and I have no problem with that. But don't throw new people into that and expect them to have fun. Its like going into a fleet battle with a new Tristian with a starter fit and your facing down a Battlecruiser. It may be fun and hilarious for the BC pilot but that person who just spent all their starting mission ISK on that frigate and fitting is pretty pissed off.
Fraceska Opus Arcana Orion Empire 2	Posted - 2013.03.02 22:52:00 - [7] - Quote Nguruthos IX wrote: Fraceska wrote: I am learning to pilot in this game it gets shot down so very quickly (if I don't wreck it first lol!). So again this is where that balancing issue between open maps and closed maps. Guns and their effective counters. Perhaps all it will take is opening of the maps. But perhaps it won't. Either way the tiered system will allow for more competitive play anyway with all the high end players in low-sec with the best gear for the most profitable wars. Just like EVE-Online and I have no problem with that. But don't throw new people into that and expect them to have fun. Its like going into a fleet battle with a new Tristian with a starter fit and your facing down a Battlecruiser. It may be fun and hilarious for the BC pilot but that person who just spent all their starting mission ISK on that frigate and fitting is pretty pissed off. I mean yeah but the worst that can happen here is they get upset at kdr. If they don't feel good enough to hold onto gear don't buy it isnt that the first rule of eve. Don't play with things you can't afford to lose? It is the first rule of EVE, but EVE has balances. CONCORD for one. Sure they can make a suicide run on a few starter pilots before turrets and CONCORD catches up to them and blasts them out of the sky. But for the most part those starting players are safe in High Sec to learn the game. And at least CAS and SWA are good places for new players to learn the mechanics of EVE before making truly terrible choices that could take days/weeks to correct. Where is that support to a new person to Dust? When you make a Gallente you don't get a Corp like CAS to help you out. You get a chat that tells you to stop crying or just "LFS" all the time. So the only way to do well is to get good gear to stand a chance against experienced players. But to use that gear risks your ISK which losing makes it harder to replace.. seems kind of a no win situation? I earn enough to keep myself well fitted and a steady supply of dropships to boot, but I know what to expect. New players do not.
Fraceska Opus Arcana Orion Empire 3	Posted - 2013.03.02 23:02:00 - [8] - Quote I made my first mining character relatively close to the last time I took a break. Great for making ISK to transfer to my main. But the heart of EVE is fighting and dying in low to null sec space. Big battles in Dust are what 100 players? Major fleet actions in EVE comprise hundreds of ships spread across several systems. It is pretty cool watching a titan die under the guns of a massed fleet. And for every peaceful miner you have a small fleet watching over those operations. Both Capsuleers and the troopers of Dust are immortal based off of technology given to them by the Jovian Empire. They can die and die and die. One demi-god among many other demi-gods. Dust is part of the EVE-Universe and in time we will have many worlds to fight and die on. But to keep it fun for everyone there needs to be checks and balances built in to keep new players coming to the game. It would be like if EVE started everyone in null-sec.
Fraceska Opus Arcana Orion Empire 3	Posted - 2013.03.02 23:31:00 - [9] - Quote Nguruthos IX wrote: Well how do you solve this without essentially segregating players by SP/gear? Which could still be exploited by kind of focused twinking. And what would be the point of getting better gear/skills if you only ever fought people with the same amount. That's not how it work's in Eve. The point is anyone can be useful to some degree, they just need to know a few basics. I don't want to be forced into fighting only noobs if I'm a noob, or only pros if I'm a pro, or only geared if I'm geared or naked if i'm naked. I think it should all mix together and offer more variety and fun for everyone. But again, I never thought this game was hard to start. And @ the person who said I should make an Alt to see what it's like getting stomped everyday. My main has no SP invested in weapons or gear and runs naked so I feel that every game. Except I don't because it isn't so bad. Every ship can be useful in EVE but not right out the gate not in low/null sec. Yeah a small fleet of T1 frigates can be useful but those pilots of Spaceship Command 5, (Race) Frigate 5, Light (weapon) spec V, Engineering 5, Mechanics 5 and all those sub-skills that turns that T1 Frigate into a beast that will be able to stomp a newer players brand new BC into dust. Its not because the new player did anything wrong it is because in EVE/Dust it heavily favors experienced players because higher tiered gear is just that much better than starting gear. So let us take into comparison Dust and EVE. Let us say that the Heavies of Dust with advanced dropsuit and the right mods will be the battleship. And militia geared new players will be the starting frigates. Just like in EVE that experienced battleship pilot will curb stomp those T1 starting frigates. Again that is just how the game is. To put them side by side at game start is not fun for that T1 player.
Fraceska Opus Arcana Orion Empire 3	Posted - 2013.03.02 23:35:00 - [10] - Quote The wrong response would be "qq more" when it is a legitimate reason that will effect the long term viability of Dust. It may be F2P but why keep the servers open if you only have a small group of players because they drove off all those who could have be interested in the game. But that T1 Frigate got put beside that advanced battleship and lost, time and time and time again.

Fraceska Opus Arcana Orion Empire 3	Posted - 2013.03.02 23:53:00 - [11] - Quote I think a locked area for those under a set SP would be best. It would be like the High Sec training area for players. Like a SWA or something for them to learn the game is all I am saying. At least EVE gave you a warning you were entering low sec. It should be that once you enter those play lists willingly you couldn't go back to those starter battles.