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Hagintora Chatelain Rapid Response Gallente Federation 63	Posted - 2013.03.03 23:18:00 - [1] - Quote +1 for this idea. Specializing into any weapon or class should mean something, and there should be a clear difference in the different Tiers of each. I feel that the more damage the weapon can do to a target, the longer the range should be. That would effectively put TacSR's at the bottom of the list, and Charged SR's at the top. It never really made sense to me that while other weapons have an "effective range", the Sniper Rifle never has a reduction in damage. You are always at 100% efficiency when firing at Infantry. Having an actual "effective range" on Sniper Rifles would help alliviate some of the hate that playing a sniper brings you, as well as help balance the role in general. A snipers reach should be far, without a doubt, but the only time a player should be able to reach across the map is if he has put SP's into Sharpshooter, and is rocking ADV or PRO rifles. I've never heard anyone complain about being shot by a Thale, because people know that you have to pretyy much max out you Sniper Rifle skills just to be able to use one. What I see people complain about the most is being killed by MLT, or Tier 1 SR's from all the way across the map. People feel, and I agree with them, that those players haven't earned the right to be able to that yet. You shouldn't be able to use a starter fit SR, and 1 or 2 shot a heavy from a kilometer away. By adding in a percentage drop in damage, the only way you'd be able to kill an opponent with a low level SR from extreme range, is if they stand there and let you do it. In which case they deserve their fate.
Hagintora Chatelain Rapid Response Gallente Federation 63	Posted - 2013.03.03 23:24:00 - [2] - Quote Rachoi wrote: honestly, i think that snipers shouldnt be on the top of the board, not all the time atleast. sure, snipers have the highest power rifles, but they shouldnt be the ones everyone wants to be, or NOTHING gets done. i.e. i was on a skirmish team where 8 of the people were sniping, and lost horribly, because all of them were sitting back and expecting to kill the others. yet at game end i was the one on the top of the score board, because i had more actuall kills and hacks. Snipers should be harder to spot and longer range, but are either over-vilified or over-glorified. a properly set assault WILL survive two shots from even ADV grade and make it to cover. snipers are not the best, never will be. but they wont be the worst either. always another way to kill a merc, find it already Exactly. Sniper's are specialzed infantry. They're used for support, and suppresion. If you want to be really good at killing Mercs and always be at the top of the board, you need to be a part of an Assault Team. Whenever I play a sniper and reach number one on the board for my team, I know something is wrong. My role is not to be best killer, my role is to enable the Assault Teams to take objectives by helping to eliminate the risk around them.
Hagintora Chatelain Rapid Response Gallente Federation 63	Posted - 2013.03.04 06:57:00 - [3] - Quote Ulysses Knapse wrote: Making sniper rifles bad at what they are made for is blasphemy. Sniper rifles? Inaccurate? Preposterous! Snipers should not have to pay ISK and SP by the barrel-full to have an accurate gun, it's the only thing making them who they are! Nobody said to make Sniper Rifles inaccurate, or to make them bad at what they do. Only that there should be a clear progession, a clear improvement, in the rifles as you go up in Tiers (beyond just damage). And absoutely nobody said to make them cost more in the way of ISK and SP; the cost for both can remain the same. We just talking about damage mods at long/extreme ranges. The only mention of accuracy was Jathniel's suggestion to reduce scope sway in PRO models.
Hagintora Chatelain Rapid Response Gallente Federation 63	Posted - 2013.03.04 07:21:00 - [4] - Quote Ulysses Knapse wrote: You are wrong on all counts. A. There is currently no persistent sway in any Sniper Rifles while standing still. He did not suggest the reduction of scope sway in Prototype weapons, he suggested the addition of scope sway into Militia and Standard, and scope sway is a *****. I think we can all agree that scope sway contributes to inaccuracy greatly, therefore I am correct. B. Since Advanced and Prototype sniper rifles become more accurate due to less sway, people are forced to pay more to get accuracy that should naturally come with the sniper rifle, therefore I am correct. Why are these things bad? If I want to increase the range/accuracy/damage in my AR, I have to pay the SP into AR Operation, the Sharpshooter Skill, Weaponry, and AR Proficiency. Then I have to buy the Higher Tier AR's with ISK that have a higher accuracy rating, and a higher base damage. Why should the Sniper Rifle be any different from any other weapon in the game. If you want to shoot farther, have more accuracy, and do more damage to the target, you're going to have to pay the SP costs for the skills, and the ISK cost for the weapon. Just because Sniper Rifles have a higher base in accuracy and damage than other weapons, doesn't mean that there shouldn't be Tiered progression that people would have to earn, just like every other weapon in the game. And this is all coming from someone who is a dedicated Sniper/Shotty-Scout.
Hagintora Chatelain Rapid Response Gallente Federation 63	Posted - 2013.03.04 07:50:00 - [5] - Quote Ulysses Knapse wrote: Sniper Rifles are different because Sniper Rifles completely rely on total accuracy. Prototype Sniper Rifles are already effective enough against those with Standard Sniper Rifles, why increase the discrepancy to a level that would make it impossible for those with a Standard Sniper Rifle to effectively fight those with Prototype Sniper Rifles? I'm not saying Standard Sniper Rifles should be just as good, but it shouldn't be so different that it's impossible. Secondly, we don't need sway. Snipers honestly aren't as effective as people think, especially not with Standard Sniper Rifles. We don't need to make it worse. Sniper Rifles don't rely on total accuracy, as no weapon should ever have that. Sniping is about patience and timing. It wouldn't be impossible for a STD SR to fight against a PRO SR. Technically you could say that it already is, simply because the PRO does much more in the way of damage. But it's not, because you would have Sniper's jockeying for postion, trying to get that shot. If you're out of range, then you need to move into range. If you don't have clear LOS, then you need to move in order to get that perfect angle. And one should never assume that just because your opponent is out of range of your weapon, that you are out of range of theirs. I would agree with the sway thing, but that requires CCP to change what the Sniper Rifle Operation Skill does. Becuase all it does is reduce sway. Which is laughable to me because all I have to do is crouch, and sway is eliminated entirely. So it's basically a Non-Skill. If we are to keep that skill, then sway needs to be added to ADS when crouching. Crounching should reduce sway, but not eliminate it entirely. And Rachoi is right. Since sniping is all about patience and timing, adding in a little bit of sway to ADS will actually help you to hit your target. Try it some time. Pick a sniper fit, the try and shoot someone while standing up. Since there is sway in the weapon you can actually time your shot better, and if the person moves, it actually gives you a slightly better chance to hit them. Because they might be moving in the direction of your sway. Right now, if they move just a little bit, you will miss completely.
Hagintora Chatelain Rapid Response Gallente Federation 63	Posted - 2013.03.04 23:38:00 - [6] - Quote Ulysses Knapse wrote: Hagintora wrote: Sniper Rifles don't rely on total accuracy, because no weapon should ever have that jaw drops Did... did you really just say that? Dear lord, what is this world coming to? Fixed that for you, and yes, yes I did. This is a game, and as such no weapon in the game should have 100% accuracy with that much killing power. Espescially at MLT Level. IRL Sniper Rifles are not 100% accurate, either. The shooter has to compensate for wind resistance/direction, humidity, temperature, the difference in elevation between the shooter and the target and the rotation of the earth. The rifle will only get you so far and then it's up to the skill of the man operating it. But this is a game, no nobody wants to, or should be forced to, deal with all of that crap. So we can add a little lore to the description of the Sniper Rifle that says that the rifle has an onboard computer that compensates for all these things for you. The MLT Rifles could then have sway (according to lore) becuase the hardware/software of the system isn't fast enough to fully compensate for sudden changes in any of the above mentioned values. Where, again, the rifle will only get you so far, and then you have to rely on your own skill. Ulysses Knapse wrote: That's horrible logic. We have goddamn supersuits and you are saying that 1. We can't steady a militia/standard sniper rifle with supersuit muscle, 2. Standard sniper rifles are bulky (which isn't true, militia is bulky compared to the others but standard is not) 3. Standard sniper rifles are flawed (which they aren't, advanced and prototype are simply better. Standard is still great), 4. Militia sniper rifles are flawed (compared to today, none of these weapons are actually flawed, some are just better than others.) You do bring up a good point here. Standard should be...well...the standard. MLT can and should be worse than their standard (and higher) counter parts.But STD should be the baseline that everything operates on. ADV would still be where most people would want to be, because it'd be better than STD but not wouldn't cost you your first born like PRO.
Hagintora Chatelain Rapid Response Gallente Federation 63	Posted - 2013.03.05 00:19:00 - [7] - Quote TheEnd762 wrote: Do people actually use MLT sniper rifles? I used one ONCE when I first started playing, and haven't touched one since because they are utter pieces of crap. They're weak, slow, and only have 3 round clips. I just played Medic until I had enough SP and ISK to buy the STD sniper rifle. Which took all of 10 minutes. Watch the kill record (or whatever it's called), you'll see Militia Sniper Rifle pop up quite a bit.
Hagintora Chatelain Rapid Response Gallente Federation 64	Posted - 2013.03.05 03:09:00 - [8] - Quote Rachoi wrote: meaaning they should really give MLT snipers a little less to go with.... as for anything else MLT to prove a point, MLT forge guns should probably lose about 200 direct damage, bringing it to only 1000 direct damage. militia shotgun should lose some power too. MLT SMGs should lose a couple points to power. [just making a point here] by basic logic MLT should be the bottom of the barrel, and should be common, but not used to death like they are. STD should.. well.. be the standard thing you see shooting people. All MLT items should be scraping the bottom of the barrel. They're cheap for a reason, and in more ways than one. By having a clear progression it encourages people to skill into the things they want to improve on, while keeping the ability to still be able to use a wide variety of items at the cost of them being less effective. I looked up the errata on the Sniper Rifle: Militia Sniper Rifle: Range: 598 Meters Effective Range: 1-598 Meters Standard Sniper Rifle: Same as Militia Sniper Rifle, but with lower CPU/PG costs. There is something wrong with that.
Hagintora Chatelain Rapid Response Gallente Federation 64	Posted - 2013.03.05 03:43:00 - [9] - Quote Chinduko wrote: So people want to give newbs even less of a chance to compete by nerfing their already weak militia equipment? I disagree to nerfing newbs. Casual players should be able to compete with the hardcore grinders or they have no reason to play. They will play another game, lessening Dust 514's chance for success. Actually, most of what we're talking about is already in place when it comes to Militia equipment. What we're discussing, specifically, here is having that same standard apply to Militia Sniper Rifles. Nobody wants to nerf the newbs, and they really won't be affected by this overall. The ones that want to specialize as snipers won't notice, because they will have already put points into the those skills at character creation. Those who wnat to specialize as snipers later their chartacters career, can still use the MLT SR to get a feel for how they work and what the best tactics are (because those won't change). What it will do is give a reason to actually spend SP into the Skills required for SR's, having a skill that reduces scope sway is great, until you realize that all you need to do is crouch. Why spend points after that? This idea gives people a reason to want to skill into sniper rifles.

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