DUST Search - New Tankless Ambush

Thurak Mirunas wrote:

This isn't call of duty, learn to play, HTFU, if you dont like vehicles skill into AV, if you dont want to skill into AV, keep away from vehicles, or get in a squad with someone who can AV, this is a team game so as long as a few of the people you are with can AV you should be fine, but we shouldn't be removing tanks from any games

Bruce3 Wayne3 wrote:

trollface dot jpg wrote:

Bruce3 Wayne3 wrote:

biggest problem people hav is they use wrong weaponry against tanks, AV nades and swarmers kill a spec'd Madruger in a few seconds easy whereas against shield tanks they dont do much however Flux nades and Forge gun kill them very fast.

if people want to bring HAVs into game the only thing that should stop them is the enemy and not AR assaults who complain about everything, even exploits they're using (stacking damage mods).

if you want ambush without HAVs then kill all opposing HAVs.

oh and if its fair to ban tanks from ambush isnt it also fair to ban all custom drop suits and aquired skills? afterall thats what your trying to do to tankers.

No, I'm trying to make a new ambush mode. Where tanks are not allowed. They can still play ambush. Totally read my OP wrong.

no...i red it correct then thought about it... ALL INFANTRY would play this as its easier for them as it suits their specialisations leaving only tankers and AV specs on ambush.

AV specs will kill tanks causing them to quit (afterall AV kills HAV easily so 16 AVs will insta kill ANY tank)

so ambush will b obsolete therefore leaving only ambush without tanks... i just skipped ahead a week and this thought process in other posts.


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trollface dot jpg Destined 4 Biomass 32	Posted - 2013.03.01 12:50:00 - [1] - Quote No, I'm not saying take tanks out of ambush. I'm saying if tank dirvers feel they are entitled to pull as many tanks as they want in regular ambush, fine. Give us a side version of ambush where tanks, or maybe even all vehicles, are not able to be called in. Call it Ambush (NVS) [NVS=No Vehicle Support] The thing I REALLY hate is all of the AV players and the vehicle pilots saying "Skill into AV and HTFU". So in order to play this game, I have to play it YOUR way, by skilling into the AV class even though playing AV holds no interest to me whatsoever? I should have to waste my SP on a class that I don't want to play because vehicle drivers are able to run rampant in CQC only maps? In EVE, is there anything you have to skill into just to take out one particular type of ship even though that one thing is nearly useless against anything but that ship? Plenty of people have made the point that tankers should be allowed to use their tanks anywhere they want since anyone who spent their SP elsewhere can too. That's fine, just let those people who don't want to deal with tank trains in ambush play a different mode where they don't have to deal with that. Then maybe the AV players will filter into regular ambush and it will be a real AV vs Vehicle free-for-all. This method is fair, balanced, and most importantly a good idea for new players who have not had the time to skill into anything that could even SCRATCH one of the high level tanks rolling around in ambush these days. Please give it a think over CCP.
trollface dot jpg Destined 4 Biomass 32	Posted - 2013.03.01 13:06:00 - [2] - Quote Vermaak Doe wrote: Saying you don't want to skill Av because it holds no interest for you is like saying you won't skill secondary weapons because only Av interests you, you're setting yourself up for failure AV weapons are entirely different from secondary weapons, no comparison. AV is a player class, though everyone should have at least basic AV. That said, a full team of basic AV against a train of top tanks will do absolutely nothing. So, you are saying everyone should have to spec fully into AV so they can keep up with the new vehicles coming out? An assault/logi/scout player should have to spec into both heavy suits and forge guns JUST so they can handle tanks too? No, we shouldn't have to do any such thing. Make a new game mode, the whole issue goes away.
trollface dot jpg Destined 4 Biomass 32	Posted - 2013.03.01 13:17:00 - [3] - Quote J-Lewis wrote: TBH the real issue is the pub matchmaking system not taking specializations into account. It should try to balance each side both in terms of SP, and roles. Right now it's very arbitrary what kind of composition you end up with. That wouldn't stop a full squad of high-level tankers from joining a match together.
trollface dot jpg Destined 4 Biomass 32	Posted - 2013.03.01 13:39:00 - [4] - Quote Vermaak Doe wrote: trollface dot jpg wrote: Vermaak Doe wrote: Saying you don't want to skill Av because it holds no interest for you is like saying you won't skill secondary weapons because only Av interests you, you're setting yourself up for failure AV weapons are entirely different from secondary weapons, no comparison. AV is a player class, though everyone should have at least basic AV. That said, a full team of basic AV against a train of top tanks will do absolutely nothing. So, you are saying everyone should have to spec fully into AV so they can keep up with the new vehicles coming out? An assault/logi/scout player should have to spec into both heavy suits and forge guns JUST so they can handle tanks too? No, we shouldn't have to do any such thing. Make a new game mode, the whole issue goes away. Who said anything about forge guns? Swarms work wonders and a new light av weapon is coming soon And no using a secondary isn't different because that's an Av player's only defense from infantry This part: Quote: you won't skill secondary weapons because only Av interests you I read it wrong. I thought you were comparing the two, not expounding the importance of your sidearm when equipped with an AV weapon. You are correct in that. However, sidearms importance to AV is still not a proper comparison to AV-Main weapons. For an AV player, sure. But for those of us who specialize, AV is a waste of SP. I'd rather spend a whole match avoiding vehicles than wasting SP on it, I do it quite often and it suit me fine. But at the same time we should have the ability to take a break from all being tank fodder for high level tanks when we want to. Getting the ground behind me razed by tank fire while I mop up infantry gets old after a while, and honestly I've been burnt out on dealing with tanks since the missile spam hell from 3+ months ago. I cannot remember the last time I went into a match and there were NO tanks whatsoever. No matter the match type, some guy always brings one in. In skirmish, I have no issue with it. In a forcibly CQC ambush however, it's stupid to force people to play with tanks on the field if they don't wish to. If someone doesn't spec AV but wants to play, they have to play skirmish to have a chance. There should be an ambush mode for them too. Edit: And swarms are crap against shields, and many armor tanks have some decent shield buffers as well.
trollface dot jpg Destined 4 Biomass 32	Posted - 2013.03.01 13:41:00 - [5] - Quote Vermaak Doe wrote: Also there is a 4 vehicle max so a full av team would be 4v1 Yes, except that those 16 AV players would have to deal with the other 12 NON AV players on the field to try to kill the tanks.
trollface dot jpg Destined 4 Biomass 32	Posted - 2013.03.01 14:03:00 - [6] - Quote Vermaak Doe wrote: trollface dot jpg wrote: Vermaak Doe wrote: Also there is a 4 vehicle max so a full av team would be 4v1 Yes, except that those 16 AV players would have to deal with the other 12 NON AV players on the field to try to kill the tanks. You forget that it doesn't take a full squad to bring down top tier tanks, and some of those 12 players are bound to be gunners. 12 ground units shooting at AV, plus 4 large turrets. Too much for AV to handle. If each tank has one gunner, that just means instead of using an AR they are shooting a blaster, and turret skills for everyone in the tank stack together. Yes, they might get one or even two, but this is in a hypothetical situation where EVERY ONE of the other team is running AV against top tier tanks. In the typical match you have maybe 3 at most with AV on the field. Even if they are running full proto AV, 4 top tier tanks is too much. It's not the HP or even the power of the turrets, but the hardners as well. a swarm on a shield tank with it's hardners activated, even a full proto swarm with 3 complex mods, isn't going to make a huge dent in the shields of a top tier shield tank with it's hardners on. Hell, I have a Soma that can take 5 swarm volleys when it's hardners are active.
trollface dot jpg Destined 4 Biomass 32	Posted - 2013.03.01 14:53:00 - [7] - Quote I love how all these people say getting into to proto-whatever takes less SP than tanks. Yes, but maxing out an infantry class is far harder SP-wise than maxing out a tank class I believe. The necessary SP for an AV to be fully effective is just as important as the weapon they use I THINK the SP needed is far more for an infantry class than a tank class, it just takes longer to get the tank class started and to get better hulls (read: Tank) for a tanker than it is to get better hulls (read: Dropsuits) for an infantry player. But I'm about to start a thread on it to find out for sure. Feel free to join me for THAT troll-fest once I post it up. =) I'll be asking for help gathering the SP totals for maxing different tank & infantry skills. On this topic though, you are assuming that you have 2 per squad running AV. That never happens unless you are running in a match with proper corps in full squads who know what they are doing. This thread is for balancing public matches where that almost never happens anymore. If you split it into two groups, then you are set without having to take anything away from tankers. If you leave it how it is, you are taking away from the new player experience as well as the non-av player experience. Just as you can say taking tanks out of regular ambush would be unfair to tankers, you can say leaving them in is unfair to new and non AV players.
trollface dot jpg Destined 4 Biomass 34	Posted - 2013.03.01 16:29:00 - [8] - Quote Bruce3 Wayne3 wrote: biggest problem people hav is they use wrong weaponry against tanks, AV nades and swarmers kill a spec'd Madruger in a few seconds easy whereas against shield tanks they dont do much however Flux nades and Forge gun kill them very fast. if people want to bring HAVs into game the only thing that should stop them is the enemy and not AR assaults who complain about everything, even exploits they're using (stacking damage mods). if you want ambush without HAVs then kill all opposing HAVs. oh and if its fair to ban tanks from ambush isnt it also fair to ban all custom drop suits and aquired skills? afterall thats what your trying to do to tankers. No, I'm trying to make a new ambush mode. Where tanks are not allowed. They can still play ambush. Totally read my OP wrong.
trollface dot jpg Destined 4 Biomass 34	Posted - 2013.03.01 17:33:00 - [9] - Quote Thurak Mirunas wrote: This isn't call of duty, learn to play, HTFU, if you dont like vehicles skill into AV, if you dont want to skill into AV, keep away from vehicles, or get in a squad with someone who can AV, this is a team game so as long as a few of the people you are with can AV you should be fine, but we shouldn't be removing tanks from any games Last time, I'm not suggesting we remove tanks. L2READ Bruce3 Wayne3 wrote: trollface dot jpg wrote: Bruce3 Wayne3 wrote: biggest problem people hav is they use wrong weaponry against tanks, AV nades and swarmers kill a spec'd Madruger in a few seconds easy whereas against shield tanks they dont do much however Flux nades and Forge gun kill them very fast. if people want to bring HAVs into game the only thing that should stop them is the enemy and not AR assaults who complain about everything, even exploits they're using (stacking damage mods). if you want ambush without HAVs then kill all opposing HAVs. oh and if its fair to ban tanks from ambush isnt it also fair to ban all custom drop suits and aquired skills? afterall thats what your trying to do to tankers. No, I'm trying to make a new ambush mode. Where tanks are not allowed. They can still play ambush. Totally read my OP wrong. no...i red it correct then thought about it... ALL INFANTRY would play this as its easier for them as it suits their specialisations leaving only tankers and AV specs on ambush. AV specs will kill tanks causing them to quit (afterall AV kills HAV easily so 16 AVs will insta kill ANY tank) so ambush will b obsolete therefore leaving only ambush without tanks... i just skipped ahead a week and this thought process in other posts. So letting players play without tanks in the match is unfair to tankers? That's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. You'd have people who can handle playing AV in matches with other AV players, and you'd have people who are anti AV and vehicle drivers playing together. It would be perfect training for protecting/attacking vehicles in corp battles.
trollface dot jpg Destined 4 Biomass 34	Posted - 2013.03.01 18:04:00 - [10] - Quote Bruce3 Wayne3 wrote: trollface dot jpg wrote: [quote=Thurak Mirunas]This isn't call of duty, learn to play, HTFU, if you dont like vehicles skill into AV, if you dont want to skill into AV, keep away from vehicles, or get in a squad with someone who can AV, this is a team game so as long as a few of the people you are with can AV you should be fine, but we shouldn't be removing tanks from any games Last time, I'm not suggesting we remove tanks. L2READ [quote=Bruce3 Wayne3] no it wouldn't as its seperation of specialisation... it would create more problems then it solves... their should be no seperation afterall this is just how everything starts to go wrong for the seperated. if you or any1 else has problems with tanks than nut up or shut up (well shut up about segregation) INFANTRY>AV>HAV>INFANTRY just because you cant do everything as a AR assault doesnt mean what you cant kill is OP. A) I'm not an AR assault, I merely use it as an example in most cases since most people can relate to it. B) AV=HAV. HAV can kill AV far easier than AV can kill HAV. Equal skilled AV player will keep an equal skilled HAV on the run. Unless that HAV has skilled gunners on it's small turrets, then the HAV has 2 potentially very powerful turrets able to keep an eye on 360 degrees around the tank with an additional set of eyes to the front. With the right skills, a small turret can be more powerful than any AR since the turret skills of everyone in the vehicle stack together. It's all circumstantial, but 1 equal skilled AV=1 equal skilled HAV. 2 ok AV=1 good HAV. 3 ok AV=1 GREAT HAV. But when you have a team of 5 ok AV and 3 good HAV's, there's nothing to do but leave the match or take a beating, which is not fair to the non-AV players. C) There seems to be some misconception here. I have no real issue with tanks, I almost NEVER have no means of getting clear of them. However I can clearly see how people are having issue with them being able to call in so many in random spawning CQC matches. It's going end up in either tanks getting nerfed, tank limits in matches being reduced, or an alternate mode put in if things keep up the way they have been. I'm pointing to the method I think would be best for the community considering the issue, though honestly tankers themselves could keep anything from happening if they could just control themselves and not grief people by driving tank trains through that tiny Manus Peak ambush map. D) Separation of specialization to an extent. Tank drivers can still run tankless matches, they just can't run their tanks. Just like OMS has off map support, this ambush wouldn't have RDV support. This would also be a good place for those QQers who whine about getting run over by LAV's.

trollface dot jpg Destined 4 Biomass 36	Posted - 2013.03.01 19:03:00 - [11] - Quote Bruce3 Wayne3 wrote: AV has longer range than HAV AV > HAV small turres are useless vs AV unless its operator jumps out of HAV and kills them. 5 ok AV scare gd drivers and kill bad 1s. against 5 HAV 8 AV will always win (happened to me earlier, out of 5 simultaneous fielded tanks only 1 survived after 3 mins) SEGREGATION doesnt help anything out of curiosity what is your experience with HAV? I've always ran with tankers instead of speccing them, though I do like refitting militia ones for screwing around in. I have a really fun little Soma that can take 5 advanced swarm volleys when my hardners are all on, but I suck at driving the things. Too clunky for my tastes. Even the shield tanks are irritating. I spec LAV's. They are faster, require less SP, and allow me to get the skills I need to make lolmilitia tanks that pisss people off when they can't kill them. I love small blasters, which is why I know forge gunners/swarmers/AV naders who are within ~80 meters of a tank's stabilized small blaster turrets are easy pickings if a competent gunner is on board. My Methana can take 2 full packed AV grenades and keep on going, and when I have a good gunner on board my Methana almost never dies. Looking forward to my logi LAV. How do I know a tank can stand up to 5+ AV? I can run said Soma in any match and survive through the whole match 75% of the time despite AV grenades and swarms all over the place. And I SUCK' at driving these things. If I can do that solo in a militia tank against advanced AV with ok AV skills, then there is no reason someone speccing into tanks with good tank driving skill and better tanks and tank mods can't do better. As for AV having better range, in most cases yes. But at longer range it is much easier for a tank to hide from the AV, so range isn't always an advantage. And AV grenades do not throw as far as a tank blaster can shoot. As for your 5 HAV's, when that many field at once the whole team will try to gang up on one at a time. When there are only one or two, there will be maybe 4-5 AV players trying to get a shot on the tanks while the tanks are at range. The AV players make themselves known by the missiles firing everywhere and the great flashing forge lights, so they draw attention and die. The ones who get too close end up overwhelmed by the tanks infantry. Unless the whole team makes a concerted effort to end the tanks, they remain a large threat. When the team knows only one or two tanks are around, most will hope someone else deals with it and not spawn AV, opting to try and avoid it.