DUST Search - I maxed my weekly SP Cap and logged off...

Pent'noir wrote:

Gunner Niv wrote:

Wanted to add some info to show people exactly what the cap means.

Lets say the average player participates in battle for say 4hrs at 20mins per game while the cap is in place:

3000sp per hour

12000sp per day

84000sp per week

336000sp per month

OH NUMBERS! I like me some numbers.
Are ppl without boosters also hitting the cap in a couple of days?
Assuming each game is 20 Minutes then we have 1500sp (Active Booster) per 20Min
Let a day be 4 hours of play

4500 per hour

18000sp per day (4 hours)

126000 per 7 days (28 hours)

556000 per 31 days (124 hours)

However, 4 hours a day is pretty light for a grinder. It would be more likely that they are playing 8 hours a day and maybe 16 hours on non work days or school days. Yes, I know thats virtually no life outside of the game, and they usually only keep that up for a couple weeks before taking a break. But lets say they hit the sp cap on friday night and started grinding again on saturday (beginning of their 2 days off from work)

4500 per hour
36000 per 8 hours
72000 per 16 hours
Saturday-Sunday 144000 sp
Monday-Tuesday 72000 sp
Total grind with sp cap 216000 sp
This is what a power grinder would be likely to make in a week. I sometimes follow this pattern when I have nothing else going on, so lets say I had alot of stamina with no life and kept this up for a 4 week month.
864000 sp per month


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Grief PK An Eye For An Eye AN EYE F0R AN EYE 13	Posted - 2013.02.24 01:47:00 - [1] - Quote Just wanted to let CCP know for their statistics. I played until I maxed it out and now will be logged off until it refreshes. I had every intention of playing all weekend long and during the week. Instead of logging onto Dust I will be logging into other games and giving them my money until my cap refreshes. I am a power gamer and do not play games when they are not rewarding my time. I don't intend this as a rant I am genuinely trying to convey a power-gamers perspective on the cap situation. My personal take on the matter is as follows. It used to be that I could log in and make 50-60k SP per round. This obviously was to much and I totally understand why I can now only make 10k per map ( I finish in the top 3 regularly so 10 is my average ). I have no problem grinding away at 10k per map knowing it will take years to max out the existing skills even if I played 4 hours a day every day nonstop. I like how Dust ( and eve which i have played for 10 years) allows a new player to spec and become powerful in one discipline very quickly and older players to max out their specs in multiple disciplines. I hear and understand the argument that you don't want to create 'god' players of ppl that grind all day and to have a huge advantage over casual/new players. I feel that Dust avoids this inherently because I can only train 5 on any given skill. A new player comes in and trains Assault riffles to 5, he can now fit the same gun as me at lvl 5 no matter how long I have played. Meaning if i play assault and he plays assault we are as even as it gets. Now the difference is that I can swap to sniper where maybe he cant because I am an older/power player. But to me that is balance, that guy has the same potential to grind just like me to get the sniper and everything else up. I think the amount of SP you can gain per match is balance and should stay as is, but the SP cap should be removed to allow players to better themselves at 'max' speed knowing that max speed is still slow enough that they will never hit the point that they run out of skills. I would love to know what other power gamers think about this and how they feel the SP cap should be handled. CCP if you would weigh in on the experience you are intending for power gamers as well that would be awesome.
Grief PK An Eye For An Eye AN EYE F0R AN EYE 13	Posted - 2013.02.24 02:55:00 - [2] - Quote Vaerana Myshtana wrote: I call QQ on power gamers wanting to always have better stuff than new players. Having children, a busy job, or other non-game demands on one's time should not preclude someone from being able to enjoy the game as fully as a power gamer. People who have that much time to play games should be spending that time building empires with nullsec alliances in EVE. Then at least they can train into Titans and know that no newbie will have that ship. Of course, the Goons might still gank it with free rookie ships... I hear you and feel you have interpreted the intention of this post incorrectly. It has nothing to do with wanting better stuff then newer players. It has to do with all time, new player or power-gamer time should be rewarded equally, in this case with SP. A casual player gets equal reward for their match as does a power game, a power gamer just plays more matches. In this scenario a casual player would be able to play a class just as well as a power gamer in that same class. But a power-gamer would just be able to play more classes because they have invested more time.
Grief PK An Eye For An Eye AN EYE F0R AN EYE 13	Posted - 2013.02.24 05:17:00 - [3] - Quote Pent'noir wrote: It's not about power gamers vs casuals. When the game has been out for more than a year, non of that will matter. There will still be new players and ppl with a huge amount of sp, probably playing in the same match... It's about making it take years to max out all of the skills. Once a person gets to a certain sp point, they will probably never buy another booster ever again. this is interesting. So you think it might have to do with the payment structure? That if to many ppl get to much SP to fast they will stop using cash to buy boosters and other items? This I can see as a problem. I think though that even if I ground 8hrs a day, it would take several years even if i made 10k per match to max things out. That is not to say there is the potential that i might be less inclined to buy boosters once i have reached a certain SP amount. I hope this is not the case, I feel like if it was CCP is biting the hand that feeds it. Meaning that the gamers willing to spend the money are also ones with high expectations of productive play time. And I have high expectations of expansions and future skills, so even if conservatively it took 1 year at 8 hrs a day to grind out all the skills at 10k per round. One, even the most avid power gamer most likely would not have that kind of time, but say hypothetically they did, then by the time they maxed out the skills two expansions ( assuming they are 6 months apart based on eve ) would have gone by to expand their potential skill base. So again, I hope this isn't the motive for the cap.
Grief PK An Eye For An Eye AN EYE F0R AN EYE 13	Posted - 2013.02.25 14:51:00 - [4] - Quote KalOfTheRathi wrote: You logging off is good. Angry Birds awaits you. Bejeweled Zen Mode never, ever ends. Imagine the lovely sparklies. Ooh. While you were on your phone I logged into my second char. Capped that one too. Haven't started a third as I have Dark Souls to play. Grief PK, what does the PK mean? Your first name being Grief we already understand. PK is a term coined in MMO's for "Player Killer".
Grief PK An Eye For An Eye AN EYE F0R AN EYE 13	Posted - 2013.02.25 15:03:00 - [5] - Quote Jooki Chewaka wrote: Grief PK wrote: JI am a power gamer and do not play games when they are not rewarding my time. Isn't fun rewarding enough? I mean, i've played HL, CS, Quake2 and 3, UT, for long time, and there was not a SP, or any bullshit as a reward... just fun. If anyone is interested in my opinion, there shouldn't be any sp reward per each match, just like eve, not even a passive gain, you train skills in real time, and if you dont have any skill in the queue, you dont train at all, just like in eve. This way ppl would play not to reach the cap, or to farm, or whatver, but for the fun, besides isnt this what all games are about? This is a very good point, and its a very personal one. My one word answer to "Isn't fun enough" is ... no. To me as a power gamer the fun is in the grind, its in the one more reward that I have to reach. Its in having what others do not because I dedicated more time. The gameplay is second. I know that sounds weird but its the honest truth. Eve is setup with steady skill gains that every one has, but it allows you infinite possibilities to generate isk and tackle any number of other 'sandbox' challenges. Making the SP a background aspect of the game not the driving force. You could say some one in a rifter is having just as much fun killing challenging rats to them as some one with 5m more SP running a mission that is challenging to them. As another poster mentioned the Dust SP system creates different expectations than the eve system. Its gives me the high of being able to attain these awesome points that buy me awesome skills and I want those skills harder faster stronger. Those skills directly affect my game play so as a power game i naturally want to grind them as much as possible to up my gameplay. Now again please realize I understand and appreciate that others don't play like this. I am offering a very personal perspective of a certain gamer segment. So in essence its anticlimactic and creates a negative emotional response to have my potential capped. An infantile metaphor would be "CCP takes the candy away". You build up all this drive and intention to be awesome at this game, you get in the zone and make a plan for how you are going to spend your points, then a brick wall smacks you in the face. And frankly its insulting to come in first place on a map by no small margin to get 1k sp. That means I worked harder, ground faster and did more to win that match than anyone else there and I did not even get the base reward that every other player got. The poster who talked about power gamers not buying boosters because of the cap, this is interesting. Its funny you mentioned that because mine ran out last night and I didn't buy a new one lol. Simply because I know its not 'helping me' achieve my goals faster. So I hope this is something CCP takes into account with their business model. I will buy all the boosters all the bonuses and gear to get to the top. But if I can not maintain my momentum its not worth my time to spend RL cash. The ultimate slap in the face is that to get this 500sp for a capped out match I ALSO have to pay for my own armor. so there is literally not only no reward but i LOOSE isk because that armor that i lost didn't buy me an appropriate amount of SP. Thank you all for your responses, I would like to keep this conversation going and hear more perspectives!
Grief PK An Eye For An Eye AN EYE F0R AN EYE 13	Posted - 2013.02.25 15:09:00 - [6] - Quote R F Gyro wrote: Oh look, another post highlighting the fact that SP caps are a pain when SP gains seem to be the only thing to play for. Yep, we know the game's not complete. As soon as the devs can make it happen (without breaking the rest of the game) we'll have planet control to fight over, at which point we won't care about SP except as a means to an end. Personally I can't understand why CCP are taking so long to deliver it, but we know where they are heading and all this complaining that we haven't got there yet is getting a bit tiring. I agree with your points and want to clarify that my intention is not to grumble about SP being the only thing you play for. I know the potential this game has ones it goes into full effect and am throughly looking forward to it. All the points I am making will apply in that evolved scenario of the game as well though. They are the emotional response to game mechanics, and at the end of the day, emotional response to game mechanics are what bring in or drive away the RL cash. I truly want Dust to succeed to its fullest potential so I feel its important that the PowerGamers perspective weigh in so CCP can have all the angles to best balance the system for their player base as a whole.
Grief PK An Eye For An Eye AN EYE F0R AN EYE 13	Posted - 2013.02.25 15:17:00 - [7] - Quote Freyar Tarkin wrote: Patoman Radiant wrote: If you are that crazy about getting stuff in dust, go ambush and try and get 1000 WP a match. I am not sure what you are suggesting. Not everyone is made of infinite free time. I played the majority of one day, a good deal yesterday but still have not gotten the cap. Maybe have it refresh each day and accumulate for those so addicted to the game who have little patience or planning? I can see the OP's point of view though. Why play a match when there's no real benefit (at present) to spend ISK outside of restocking dropsuits? They've built up the "Just one more level" kind of thing which is a problem, especially since they've let players decide how quickly they get SP for at least a short term based on whether or not they played. Freyar, thank you. Much more eloquent and concise than my post and exactly what I was trying to convey :)
Grief PK An Eye For An Eye AN EYE F0R AN EYE 13	Posted - 2013.02.25 16:32:00 - [8] - Quote Quote: If there was an eve style skill set up then fine, that's the way it would have been and I'd have accepted that, however I can't stand the idea of some grey dusty little man sitting somewhere telling me that if I put in the hours I will not be given the rewards I've earned. Awesome :) +1 hehe
Grief PK An Eye For An Eye AN EYE F0R AN EYE 13	Posted - 2013.02.25 18:36:00 - [9] - Quote Quote: Wanted to add some info to show people exactly what the cap means. Lets say the average player participates in battle for say 4hrs at 20mins per game while the cap is in place: 3000sp per hour 12000sp per day 84000sp per week 336000sp per month Then have a little look at the sp required to level half the skills in game and it might start to sink in. Thank you for bringing the numbers into the conversation. Looking at these at 336,000 SP a month that means you would not even be able to max out a lvl 5x skill in 1 month let alone a lvl 8x skill. For those that play Eve you will see that you get more SP passively collecting SP in Eve there by can train more skills than ACTIVELY grinding SP in dust at 4hrs a day. Eve a toon training with +5 implants in ( think paid boosters ) would make 2700sp an hour, that is the most you can possibly make. So (2700x24)30 =~ 1,944,000 SP a month. Which is FIVE times what you get actively grinding in Dust at 4 hrs a day using the numbers above. If that is the case give me passive Eve SP... please don't hoodwink me into doing more work for less reward. Then after hoodwinking me yank on the chains just as I get up to speed.
Grief PK An Eye For An Eye AN EYE F0R AN EYE 13	Posted - 2013.02.25 18:40:00 - [10] - Quote Finn Kempers wrote: I fail to see the problem here, you still get 1/3 - 1/6 (dependent on how good you are at the game) when you hit the cap. Hell the active booster extends the cap and if you still hit it, you got 1500 SP leeway. It is simply there because it means people with a working life are not stomped on by no-lifers. Simple as. EVE is completely passive. If anything it gives you time to spend on other games, Dust isn't the ONLY game out there. It means I can play some Battlefield 3 without worrying that I'm lagging behind on Dust. EVE the 'no-lifers' as you call them stomp the 'working lifers' all day every day. If i have 5b to spend on pvp ships to hold a system because I am a no lifer and grind isk every day and you have 500m because you play less... you know who wins. This is not the conversation we are looking to have here. We all accept the fact that there are different play styles and there are many more 'grey area' play styles that are a mixture of what we are talking about. We are discussing things from a Power Gamers perspective in this thread and how to encourage power game play while not impacting disproportionally the other play styles.

Grief PK An Eye For An Eye AN EYE F0R AN EYE 13	Posted - 2013.02.25 23:20:00 - [11] - Quote CPL Bloodstone wrote: interesting posts. btw, PK does stand for Player Killer, however it came from MUDS (multi-user dungeon), PRE mmo's. Now i'm showing my age. I am a casual gamer and believe there shouldn't be a SP cap either. You should be rewarded for your time. However, I believe there could be a bonus SP in place to assist the casual gamer maybe that changes on play style based on weekly sp gain. The power gamer will always have the upper hand as they put in the time. This game, like eve, will allow you to specialize quickly and learn alot of things slowly. I dont believe there will be that much of a drawback from someone who has 3 mil sp vs someone who has 10 mil sp. Just 10 mil sp guy has more options and can generalize. My 2 isk. ... precisely sir! Great post, and thank you for the history on PK, its exciting to know it goes all the way back to MUDs!
Grief PK An Eye For An Eye AN EYE F0R AN EYE 13	Posted - 2013.02.26 00:57:00 - [12] - Quote Pent'noir wrote: Gunner Niv wrote: Wanted to add some info to show people exactly what the cap means. Lets say the average player participates in battle for say 4hrs at 20mins per game while the cap is in place: 3000sp per hour 12000sp per day 84000sp per week 336000sp per month OH NUMBERS! I like me some numbers. Are ppl without boosters also hitting the cap in a couple of days? Assuming each game is 20 Minutes then we have 1500sp (Active Booster) per 20Min Let a day be 4 hours of play 4500 per hour 18000sp per day (4 hours) 126000 per 7 days (28 hours) 556000 per 31 days (124 hours) However, 4 hours a day is pretty light for a grinder. It would be more likely that they are playing 8 hours a day and maybe 16 hours on non work days or school days. Yes, I know thats virtually no life outside of the game, and they usually only keep that up for a couple weeks before taking a break. But lets say they hit the sp cap on friday night and started grinding again on saturday (beginning of their 2 days off from work) 4500 per hour 36000 per 8 hours 72000 per 16 hours Saturday-Sunday 144000 sp Monday-Tuesday 72000 sp Total grind with sp cap 216000 sp This is what a power grinder would be likely to make in a week. I sometimes follow this pattern when I have nothing else going on, so lets say I had alot of stamina with no life and kept this up for a 4 week month. 864000 sp per month Good Breakdown sir. I would say I fall into the 4hr category on my sprints. You are correct it only lasts a week or two then you take a break and come back refreshed after a bit. I am glad we are looking at numbers, it gives really good perspective.