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Militia Items, Starter Fits, and Game Balance - A Theory Discussion

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Vaerana Myshtana ScIdama Endless Renaissance 202	Posted - 2013.02.23 19:35:00 - [1] - Quote I've noticed a continual throng of threads decrying militia items as OP, starter fits as not the "New Eden" way, and BPOs as being easy mode with no risk. I think that CCP has made the Militia and Starter Fits as potent as they are because there is no "easy mode" sandbox for new players to get familiar with the game. I'm not going to delve too deeply into the current state of affairs because I think CCP is going to rebalance these HEAVILY once two things come into play- the Market and PVE. Right now, new players have no way to get experience or earn ISK except through pub matches. They are going to die, A LOT, in pub matches. That is simply unavoidable, just as if we moved all of the "rookie systems" in EVE to nullsec (lawless PVP-heavy star systems, for non-EVE ppl). To balance this, CCP made it easy for people to participate in pub matches by providing a whole passel of free and low-cost options. Here is the meat: I suspect that CCP is going to bring "Militia" items (including starter fits) more in line with "Civilian" stuff in EVE. Again, for non-EVE folks, "Civilian" modules are cheap, no- or low-skill items that are used to teach players how to play. The "Rookie Ship" in EVE is essentially a Civilian starship. In Dust, our core (non-officer/faction) dropsuits and items run from Militia (Meta 0) to Prototype (Meta 4). In EVE, core items run from Civilian (Meta -1) to Tech-2 (Meta 5). For the sake of argument (and not to clutter the post), I'm going to compare the differences in damage between these small hybrid blasters in the same variation family: Civilian Light Electron Blaster (Meta -1): 5 HP x 1.11 = 5.55 Light Electron Blaster I (Meta 0) [Lead Charge S]: 8HP x 1.84 = 14.72 Regulated Light Electron Phase Cannon I (Meta 1) [Lead Charge S]: 8HP x 1.93 = 15.44 Limited Light Electron Blaster I (Meta 2) [Lead Charge S]: 8HP x 2.02 = 16.16 Anode Light Electon Particle Cannon I (Meta 3) [Lead Charge S]: 8HP x 2.11 = 16.88 Modal Light Electron Particle Accelerator I (Meta 4) [Lead Charge S]: 8HP x 2.205 = 17.64 Light Electron Blaster II (Meta 5) [Lead Charge S]: 8 HP x 2.205 = 17.64 Mind you, there are other benefits to going up the scale (lower PG and CPU, better RoF, longer range, more accuracy, etc.). My point here is to demonstrate that once you get out of "Civilian" (Meta -1), there is only an incremental difference between Meta 0 and Meta 5. It's the sum total of those differences that justify the higher prices. Again, I think that CCP has made the Militia and Starter Fits as potent as they are because there is no "easy mode" sandbox for new players to get familiar with the game. New players in EVE are not forced into PVP as their sole means of earning ISK. For instance, they can mine, trade, or run missions. In EVE, a new player can only access Career and Level I missions. The difficulty level of these are designed to teach players how the game works and to allow them to farm small amounts of ISK with a manageable level of risk. Once Dust has a PVE option where players can weigh risk vs. reward, like the missions in EVE, there is no need to allow new players to profit from the payout on pub matches. Between selling salvage and running PVE missions, they can manage just fine. Unfortunately, right now, with a non-free militia fit costing several thousand ISK (add it up, it does), a new player can go broke very quickly between basic skillbooks and dropsuit losses. Once there is a mechanism in place to allow inexperienced players to make some cash outside of pub matches, the need for Militia stuff to be Meta 0 goes away. Summary: In theory, once the Market and PVE are added, Militia items can be moved to Meta -1 (where they belong) and nerfed appropriately. Then the "base item" (say "Assault Rifle") would move to Meta 0 and the other items would be balanced versus that. Until then, there is a very good reason for Militia items and Starter Fits to stay exactly where they are.
Vaerana Myshtana ScIdama Endless Renaissance 202	Posted - 2013.02.23 21:19:00 - [2] - Quote boba's fetta wrote: you have to rember people have payed for thesse items. I assume here you are talking about BPOs and not just the unlimited Starter Fits. I'm one of those people who bought some with real money in the form of Aurum. It is likely, however, that once the Market is in place, people will be able to sell those for ISK. That would eliminate the Pay2Win complaint as regards those, as someone who plays for awhile should be able to save up enough to buy one. That said, there have been rumors that Dust equipment will be player manufactured, just like EVE equipment. If and when that happens, I fully expect that BPOs will no longer be unlimited free items, but unlimited discounted items. Again, this is the model in EVE, where buying a BPO means you can make stuff yourself (usually cheaper than buying it). I paid cash for Dust BPOs and I'm fine with this. I'm fine either way, really, so long as we can sell (and thus, buy) Aurum items on the ISK player-driven market market. boba's fetta wrote: also with the correct skills thosse small incerments become gaping gaps. Oh, absolutely. I'm not saying that skills are unimportant. I'm simply pointing out to folks who complain that Militia weapons are too similar to Prototype weapons that this is the model in EVE as well. The difference between EVE and Dust is that EVE places the no-skill items into Meta -1 (which suck, but are serviceable) rather than into Meta 0. Without a player Market and PVE, this is unfair to Dust mercs. With those two features, it becomes reasonable to ask people to pay for and skill into Meta 0 (basic low-skill) items.
Vaerana Myshtana ScIdama Endless Renaissance 202	Posted - 2013.02.23 21:39:00 - [3] - Quote trollsroyce wrote: Militia items are absolutely fine and you are severely gimped using them in general. The balance is good IMHO, with the exceptions of: - Free LAV with too much hp and collision damage - Too good militia tanks in the railgun tank role (soma) - Infantry 1 shotting militia forge gun. Well, again, if there is a Meta -1 category (whether it's called "Militia" or "Civilian" is irrelevant), then those items could be provided to players in PVE missions rather than seeded on the Market. This is a common thing in Career Missions in EVE: "Here, take this Civilian Afterburner. Use it to fly from the warp-in point to this objective." It seems very reasonable for some PVE missions to do the same thing. "There are some large, heavily-armored Rogue Drones down there. Here are 10 (Meta -1) Forge Guns for you to make anti-vehicle fits with. You'll need them!" In those cases, the "heavily-armored Rogue Drones" would be laughable to a plain (Meta 0) Forge Gun that someone skilled into, but it doesn't matter. New players could try out the weapon and learn how it works without skilling into it. The same thing applies to LAVs and HAVs. You could get Meta -1 versions in PVE missions without them spamming into pub matches. Even if people had a few left over from missioning, they'd be a limited resource. trollsroyce wrote: Edit: read the summary, disagree. I think it's good that a newbie can just jump in a game and semi-matter right away, without getting through an extensively tedious fitting spreadsheet. Oh, absolutely. My point is that if CCP follows their previous pattern, then once players have non-PVP options for getting Active SP and ISK, then characters will be skilled into the first tier (Meta 0) of their chosen profession right away and be able to easily skill into other specialties (at a low level) if they want. The only thing that would need to happen for that to take place is moving no-skill items into Meta -1. Meta -1 items would still be totally usable in pub matches, just not as good. Heck, I seem to recall Goonswarm using free Rookie Ships in live-fire PVP ganking: https://killboard.goonfleet.com/km/101509 Mind you, I put this in General not because I feel like CCP HAS to do this or that I am seeking it as a priority. Rather, I put it here because I think that we should have a larger theoretical discussion outside of the context of a specific proposal (like "nerf the Militia").
Vaerana Myshtana ScIdama Endless Renaissance 202	Posted - 2013.02.23 21:53:00 - [4] - Quote trollsroyce wrote: The analogy that public games have in eve, for me, would be level 1 starter missions. You run them initially in doombis, and gradually work your fittings up. After a while you can seek to expand your games from pubs and set goals. You know, Initially, that was my thinking. However, the more I see pubstomping going on, the less I think it is a fitting analogy. In a pub match, a herd of relative noobs can wind up facing off against three corp squads and trio of Sagaris HAVs. There is pretty much nothing that the less-effective side can do except die. When I see people calling for the elimination of all Starter Fits or nerfing Militia items and BPOs, I have to weigh their arguments against the pubstomping I see all around me. So long as a new player's only options for SP and ISK are pub matches, it is patently unfair IMHO to make them waste ISK on dying. An awful LOT of dying. The same is not the case in Level 1 missions in EVE. While you can certainly lose your ship in a Level 1 mission, you can usually warp out and repair. There are not any enemies that I can think of in a Level 1 EVE mission that can kill a Frigate in two seconds. In Dust, you can, and often do, die in a second or two- especially as a rookie merc. PVE, on the other hand, has the potential to offer that middle ground- risk, but manageable. Oh, your character should still be able to die in Level 1 PVE missions, but probably not at the rate of a 2/10 KDR with 100 WP or less (like in pub matches). trollsroyce wrote: Granted there's more to public games, but an fps is straight into pvp as first priority. PVE is an extension only, and a gimmick to me :) Just a point of view Oh, absolutely. PVP is, and should be, the priority. My point is that PVE and selling Salvage on a player Market gives new players an ISK and SP outlet that makes it reasonable to ask them to pay ISK for Meta 0 fittings. Is it absolutely necessary that they do? No, I still enjoy the game, but I'm trying to weigh the comparative merits of both the "Starter Fits are OP" and "Militia stuff is important" schools of thought as a larger theoretical exercise.
Vaerana Myshtana ScIdama Endless Renaissance 202	Posted - 2013.02.25 01:25:00 - [5] - Quote Patoman Radiant wrote: its very different with vehicles than infantry millita gear With infantry millita is just as good as standard Idealy it should be consisitant, millita be 90% as good as standard, and each meta level increase 10% better. Each tech level the price should double. Well, price will likely be dictated by market forces in the future, but certainly they could require special components or whatnot to make better items. That's what they they do with Tech 2 stuff in EVE. Unfortunately, Meta 1 to Meta 4 are all loot only. You can't make them. You can only make Meta 0 and Meta 5 (and a few Meta -1) stuff. I wonder if CCP will require Rogue Drone salvage for making the better stuff or how they will let us get those supplies. Or, will only EVE players be able to make equipment for us?

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