DUST Search - "Killswitch" breaks "no pay to win" philosophy

Nightbird Aeon wrote:

(Note - TL;DR) version follows

One of the things I greatly enjoy about DUST is the stated philosophy that it will not be "pay to win"... that while you can use AUR to buy higher level weapons earlier (before you skill up), you're not getting an advantage over the ISK varieties at the same level.

When I speak about "advantage", in the case of weapons, i refer to both Damage and Fitting.

For example... the Duvolle is the "level 5" Assault Rifle. It has a high CPU requirement, meaning that it is intended to be used with higher level suits. Yes, you can squeeze it onto a lower level suit, but not without gimping your fitting and making yourself a glass cannon.

So.... here's my question.

The "Killswitch" GEK is a lower level weapon than the Duvolle, is available only for AUR, and has both lower fitting requirements and a higher DPS (DPS calculated using this spreadsheet).

So... while I am all for a Duvolle equivalent (damage and fittings) being offered at the level 4 or level 3 range, I have a significant problem with a gun that surpasses the top-tier ISK variety, both in damage and fitting requirements, but is only available for AUR.

So, CCP (or anyone else), can you please explain to me how the Killswitch doesn't break the "no pay to win" philosophy.

TL;DR - The AUR assault rifle "Killswitch" GEK is better than other available "bought with ISK" weapons, and therefore breaks the "no pay to win" ideal, as stated by CCP.

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Nightbird Aeon Brimstone Tactical Covert Intervention 86	Posted - 2013.02.22 18:38:00 - [1] - Quote (Note - TL;DR) version follows One of the things I greatly enjoy about DUST is the stated philosophy that it will not be "pay to win"... that while you can use AUR to buy higher level weapons earlier (before you skill up), you're not getting an advantage over the ISK varieties at the same level. When I speak about "advantage", in the case of weapons, i refer to both Damage and Fitting. For example... the Duvolle is the "level 5" Assault Rifle. It has a high CPU requirement, meaning that it is intended to be used with higher level suits. Yes, you can squeeze it onto a lower level suit, but not without gimping your fitting and making yourself a glass cannon. So.... here's my question. The "Killswitch" GEK is a lower level weapon than the Duvolle, is available only for AUR, and has both lower fitting requirements and a higher DPS (DPS calculated using this spreadsheet). So... while I am all for a Duvolle equivalent (damage and fittings) being offered at the level 4 or level 3 range, I have a significant problem with a gun that surpasses the top-tier ISK variety, both in damage and fitting requirements, but is only available for AUR. So, CCP (or anyone else), can you please explain to me how the Killswitch doesn't break the "no pay to win" philosophy. TL;DR - The AUR assault rifle "Killswitch" GEK is better than other available "bought with ISK" weapons, and therefore breaks the "no pay to win" ideal, as stated by CCP.
Lance 2ballzStrong SyNergy Gaming 642	Posted - 2013.02.22 18:41:00 - [2] - Quote You pay to get better stuff... you don't HAVE to buy them, as I see people with these things get killed all the time. At the same time though... AUR complex shield extenders that uses less CPU? lol CCP, good one.
Nightbird Aeon Brimstone Tactical Covert Intervention 86	Posted - 2013.02.22 18:44:00 - [3] - Quote I don't mind paying to get up the ladder faster, but if you've done the skilling up, what's available at the top should be equal, whether purchased with ISK or AUR.
Iskandar Zul Karnain Hellstorm Inc League of Infamy 175	Posted - 2013.02.22 18:47:00 - [4] - Quote Nightbird Aeon wrote: I don't mind paying to get up the ladder faster, but if you've done the skilling up, what's available at the top should be equal, whether purchased with ISK or AUR. QFT
Ydubbs81 RND Ahrendee Mercenaries Legacy Rising 886	Posted - 2013.02.22 18:52:00 - [5] - Quote You are really going to complain about a 0.1 hp damage difference? The killswitch utilizes the exact same cpu & pg as the duvolle so I'm not sure where you see that the fitting is different. Also, the duvolle is more accurate than the killswitch by that same 0.1 margin. Again....it isn't p2w since the duvolle is its equal, which is purchased with ISK
Maken Tosch Planetary Response Organisation Test Friends Please Ignore 1593	Posted - 2013.02.22 18:52:00 - [6] - Quote Once the player-run secondary market finally opens, you will be able to sell that AUR Killswitch on the market for ISK which will enable anyone with enough ISK to purchase that expendable rifle from you (the player who already paid cash for it). I don't see a pay-to-win situation when that happens. By the way, I keep seeing more and more GEKs on the field that are NOT killswitches.
Mithridates VI New Eden Research Foundation 165	Posted - 2013.02.22 19:22:00 - [7] - Quote Ydubbs81 RND wrote: You are really going to complain about a 0.1 hp damage difference? The killswitch utilizes the exact same cpu & pg as the duvolle so I'm not sure where you see that the fitting is different. Also, the duvolle is more accurate than the killswitch by that same 0.1 margin. Again....it isn't p2w since the duvolle is its equal, which is purchased with ISK This.
Altina McAlterson TRUE TEA BAGGERS 363	Posted - 2013.02.22 20:08:00 - [8] - Quote Maken Tosch wrote: Once the player-run secondary market finally opens, you will be able to sell that AUR Killswitch on the market for ISK which will enable anyone with enough ISK to purchase that expendable rifle from you (the player who already paid cash for it). I don't see a pay-to-win situation when that happens. By the way, I keep seeing more and more GEKs on the field that are NOT killswitches. All pay to win arguments are invalid for this very reason. Please stop making them. And also the Duvolle is more accurate than the Killswitch and is in a all regards a superior weapon. .1 extra damage? Really? Probably just a rounding error or typo or something.
Green Living Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz RISE of LEGION 53	Posted - 2013.02.22 20:37:00 - [9] - Quote I have yet to see a Killswitch kill on my kill feed and i'm a daily player.
Vin Vicious Sinq Laison Gendarmes Gallente Federation 14	Posted - 2013.02.22 20:42:00 - [10] - Quote oh look another AR thread.

General John Ripper Baltar Research 22	Posted - 2013.02.22 20:51:00 - [11] - Quote Stop crying. no one wants to listen to your whining. Anyone is free to buy whatever they want and try to get good gear but in the end it all comes down to skill. I have never bought any aur related items and for a month I did great with militia gear! In only militia gear I would constantly get rank 1-5. in everygame! I never once got killed by someone with better gear or aur bought gear and think "oh he only killed me because he bought something". They killed me because the were simply better players. I have only just recently upgraded my suit and weapons and even I sometimes get killed by others in militia gear. They simple had a better plan of attack than I did. but that is only a few deaths in one game, out of many games. In most games I do really well without having to pay a dime. everyday I am still learning new things and how to improve my strategy. This game is in no way pay to win. So people can buy a few things that may seem better. The difference is very negligible to a player who knows what they are doing.
Mavado V Noriega SyNergy Gaming 2283	Posted - 2013.02.22 21:18:00 - [12] - Quote Ydubbs81 RND wrote: You are really going to complain about a 0.1 hp damage difference? The killswitch utilizes the exact same cpu & pg as the duvolle so I'm not sure where you see that the fitting is different. Also, the duvolle is more accurate than the killswitch by that same 0.1 margin. Again....it isn't p2w since the duvolle is its equal, which is purchased with ISK Dubbs...........ur post contains this thing called logic......please refrain from using it on the forums lol
IRuby Heart DIOS EX. 330	Posted - 2013.02.22 21:31:00 - [13] - Quote lol but OP, The Killswitch has the same Fitting requirements as the Duvolle.... Perfectly balanced imo. Since you're going to need an advanced suit to even equip the thing with even basic modules.
Re-FLeX Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 152	Posted - 2013.02.22 22:00:00 - [14] - Quote The killswitch is better then the Duvolle but OP came with all the wrong reason, the thing that makes me want to use the Killswitch over my duvolle is that it has the same recoil as a GEK. I would rather play with an GEK then with a Duvolle just cause of the reliabilty of the GEK as oppsosed to the broken recoil patterns on the Duvolle
Thumb Green Kang Lo Directorate Gallente Federation 21	Posted - 2013.02.22 22:23:00 - [15] - Quote Green Living wrote: I have yet to see a Killswitch kill on my kill feed and i'm a daily player. Then you're either blind or not looking. As for the subject at hand. It doesn't bother me none; they might be paying to win, they might not. Doesn't matter because eventually it doesn't give them any real advantage and just costs them real money to maintain.
Utsuru Kaiju IMPSwarm Negative-Feedback 6	Posted - 2013.02.22 22:28:00 - [16] - Quote In order for the game to continue to grow, the developers need our support in terms of cold hard cash. The AUR versions of weapons are only slightly better, it's by no means gamebreaking or "pay to win." It's more like "pay for a minute advantage while supporting the game."
Gunner Nightingale Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 215	Posted - 2013.02.22 22:39:00 - [17] - Quote Utsuru Kaiju wrote: In order for the game to continue to grow, the developers need our support in terms of cold hard cash. The AUR versions of weapons are only slightly better, it's by no means gamebreaking or "pay to win." It's more like "pay for a minute advantage while supporting the game." This. Most AURum items are pay to get ahead not win. There is not one item i have found that works as a pay to win item. Especially given the short time frame it takes to get the pay item and its ISK equivalent is 1-2 weeks tops . This is hardly a long term viable advantage for any player. Moreover there are a lot of CPU/PG issues with the AUR items, they haven't all been corrected, but from a previous post from devs i cant find. All AUR items that unlock proto level (equivalent) gear at a lower level are still supposed to carry the same fitting costs as the ISK proto equivalent. Obviously that is not the case with all things in the market (i.e. Com shield extenders). My favorite and obvious mistake is shield regulators. Level 4 unlocks complex shield regulator isk variant and level 5 shield control unlocks an Aurum version(facepalm) yea you'll see obvious mistakes like that everywhere in the marketplace. Consider this what does level 5 Shield enhancements really provide you that you actaully would want to spend SP on it compared to level 4. Go ahead take a look, you'll chuckle.
Free Beers Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 1040	Posted - 2013.02.22 22:50:00 - [18] - Quote aurum is how we pay for the game if players see no value in items then there is a problem. I personally want to buy aurum items but they have no value to me because they aren't good enough above isk. CCP really needs proto level aurum items back in the game. None of the other **** appeals to me. I am all about paying to win. I mean look at my magnificant 5kdr (KDR ABOVE ALL ELSE) was all earned without aurum items. I'm a bad fps player so everyone who has a lower kdr should feel bad about themselves. Then they should hope ccp gives they awesome pay to win items to give them a chance. this is a micro transaction business model so items you buy with aurum will be better than isk. Best to STFU now
usrevenge2 Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 64	Posted - 2013.02.22 22:55:00 - [19] - Quote Free Beers wrote: aurum is how we pay for the game if players see no value in items then there is a problem. I personally want to buy aurum items but they have no value to me because they aren't good enough above isk. CCP really needs proto level aurum items back in the game. None of the other **** appeals to me. I am all about paying to win. I mean look at my magnificant 5kdr (KDR ABOVE ALL ELSE) was all earned without aurum items. I'm a bad fps player so everyone who has a lower kdr should feel bad about themselves. Then they should hope ccp gives they awesome pay to win items to give them a chance. this is a micro transaction business model so items you buy with aurum will be better than isk. Best to STFU now um, new here? welcome to the beta, players have spoken from the closed beta, CCP also promised there will be no pay to win. aurum gear will simply be easier to get into fitting and skillpoint wise, not better. now I don't know if what the OP is saying is true or not, but if the weapon for aur really is much better than the isk weapon there is a problem
Sloth9230 Reaper Galactic 244	Posted - 2013.02.22 23:08:00 - [20] - Quote Such a melodramatic title, I was actually hoping to find something here that would make me feel better about how much I suck... I didn't

Baal Roo Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 811	Posted - 2013.02.22 23:16:00 - [21] - Quote The AUR items absolutely NEED to be better than the ISK equivelants. In fact, I woud say as it currently stands, they are WAY to similar to ISK variants. It's important to remember that we are playing a beta, and as such we don't yet have a player market. All of you clowns that keep crying about "pay to win" are complaining about a non-issue because the player market will allow you to buy those AUR items with ISK from other players, which in turn will allow CCP to "keep the lights on" for Dust 514. Someone has to pay the bills, and I'd rather it be the guys who aren't good enough to make their purchasing decisions with ISK... that way the rest of us get to play the game for free. I welcome others to buy expensive AUR items with their IRL money once the market goes live, and I urge them to sell those items to my corpmates and me for ISK.
Sloth9230 Reaper Galactic 244	Posted - 2013.02.22 23:23:00 - [22] - Quote "Aurum allows you to do more faster", It's not supposed to be better than their ISK equivalents. Aur Items are just there as crutches so that you can use them while you get the skill points necessary to use the ISK versions, kind of like militia gear. They aren't, and should not be, necessary to win.
King Kobrah SyNergy Gaming 33	Posted - 2013.02.22 23:35:00 - [23] - Quote The AUR complex shield extenders that perform just as well as proto and have less CPU/PG requirements is "pay to win" no matter how small the advantage. It should be "pay to advance faster" not "pay for items better than ISK variants"
Baal Roo Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 811	Posted - 2013.02.22 23:37:00 - [24] - Quote King Kobrah wrote: The AUR complex shield extenders that perform just as well as proto and have less CPU/PG requirements is "pay to win" no matter how small the advantage. It should be "pay to advance faster" not "pay for items better than ISK variants" Again, this is a beta. We do not yet have a player market. The AUR items will cost SIGNIFICANTLY more ISK than their normal ISK-only counterparts to purchase.
Sloth9230 Reaper Galactic 244	Posted - 2013.02.22 23:38:00 - [25] - Quote King Kobrah wrote: The AUR complex shield extenders that perform just as well as proto and have less CPU/PG requirements is "pay to win" no matter how small the advantage. It should be "pay to advance faster" not "pay for items better than ISK variants" I'm pretty sure those are screwed up, the complex shield extenders are unlocked at level 4 to begin with. Someone made a mistake.
Free Beers Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 1040	Posted - 2013.02.22 23:43:00 - [26] - Quote usrevenge2 wrote: Free Beers wrote: aurum is how we pay for the game if players see no value in items then there is a problem. I personally want to buy aurum items but they have no value to me because they aren't good enough above isk. CCP really needs proto level aurum items back in the game. None of the other **** appeals to me. I am all about paying to win. I mean look at my magnificant 5kdr (KDR ABOVE ALL ELSE) was all earned without aurum items. I'm a bad fps player so everyone who has a lower kdr should feel bad about themselves. Then they should hope ccp gives they awesome pay to win items to give them a chance. this is a micro transaction business model so items you buy with aurum will be better than isk. Best to STFU now um, new here? welcome to the beta, players have spoken from the closed beta, CCP also promised there will be no pay to win. aurum gear will simply be easier to get into fitting and skillpoint wise, not better. now I don't know if what the OP is saying is true or not, but if the weapon for aur really is much better than the isk weapon there is a problem I've been around for a year how about yourself? If ccp offers an aurum item with better stats its an advantage and pay to win. I know last summer we tested all the aurum items and the proto ones with lower cpu/pg where the best and only ones of real value. the fits we were just better. Did is make me live longer or kill better? No idea. Pay to win is here. CCP can't milk people for aurum on boosters and call it a day. AFter a certain point players have enough sp and have no interest at to spend aurum for extra sp. Hell I am at proto level guns and almost to suits now. Then on to equipment so what aurum items would I desire then? Not a level 4 suit that can be used at level 2.
Free Beers Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 1040	Posted - 2013.02.22 23:45:00 - [27] - Quote King Kobrah wrote: The AUR complex shield extenders that perform just as well as proto and have less CPU/PG requirements is "pay to win" no matter how small the advantage. It should be "pay to advance faster" not "pay for items better than ISK variants" They will be back in some form. This game has to be paid for some how and aurum items need to be worth it. I plan to pay to win just to shove it in all the QQers faces.
Takahiro Kashuken Intara Direct Action Caldari State 102	Posted - 2013.02.22 23:50:00 - [28] - Quote Do P2W items improve your aim? Because if you cant hit em with it then its no use
Telcontar Dunedain Imperfects Negative-Feedback 328	Posted - 2013.02.22 23:52:00 - [29] - Quote There are serious issues with the AUR in regards to cost and the boosters, none of which were raised by the OP. This thread is scrubby and ignorant, you should all feel bad for posting in it.
Baal Roo Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 811	Posted - 2013.02.22 23:56:00 - [30] - Quote Telcontar Dunedain wrote: There are serious issues with the AUR in regards to cost and the boosters, none of which were raised by the OP. This thread is scrubby and ignorant, you should all feel bad for posting in it. the irony is strong with this one

Free Beers Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 1040	Posted - 2013.02.23 00:00:00 - [31] - Quote Baal Roo wrote: Telcontar Dunedain wrote: There are serious issues with the AUR in regards to cost and the boosters, none of which were raised by the OP. This thread is scrubby and ignorant, you should all feel bad for posting in it. the irony is strong with this one Telc is a scrub but he is dead on.
Baal Roo Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 811	Posted - 2013.02.23 00:01:00 - [32] - Quote Free Beers wrote: Baal Roo wrote: Telcontar Dunedain wrote: There are serious issues with the AUR in regards to cost and the boosters, none of which were raised by the OP. This thread is scrubby and ignorant, you should all feel bad for posting in it. the irony is strong with this one Telc is a scrub but he is dead on. So you agree that he should feel bad for posting?
Free Beers Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 1040	Posted - 2013.02.23 00:08:00 - [33] - Quote Baal Roo wrote: Free Beers wrote: Baal Roo wrote: Telcontar Dunedain wrote: There are serious issues with the AUR in regards to cost and the boosters, none of which were raised by the OP. This thread is scrubby and ignorant, you should all feel bad for posting in it. the irony is strong with this one Telc is a scrub but he is dead on. So you agree that he should feel bad for posting? He should always feel bad for posting, but that doesn't change the fact he is right. Even CCP nothin admitted there are issue with booster prices. Sadly it seem ccp wants to get as much money now before the game fails
Altina McAlterson TRUE TEA BAGGERS 363	Posted - 2013.02.23 00:16:00 - [34] - Quote King Kobrah wrote: The AUR complex shield extenders that perform just as well as proto and have less CPU/PG requirements is "pay to win" no matter how small the advantage. It should be "pay to advance faster" not "pay for items better than ISK variants" Did I miss something? Both the AUR shield extender and ISK complex shield extender take 54 CPU and 11 PG. What are you on about?
Sloth9230 Reaper Galactic 244	Posted - 2013.02.23 00:23:00 - [35] - Quote Altina McAlterson wrote: King Kobrah wrote: The AUR complex shield extenders that perform just as well as proto and have less CPU/PG requirements is "pay to win" no matter how small the advantage. It should be "pay to advance faster" not "pay for items better than ISK variants" Did I miss something? Both the AUR shield extender and ISK complex shield extender take 54 CPU and 11 PG. What are you on about? I'm pretty sure complex requires level 4 and takes 54 CPU and 11 PG, The Aur versions requires level 5 but takes 24 CPU and 11 PG, I'll have to check again though. the whole thing is... strange, to say the least.
Pompeius Maximus Mandalorian's 3	Posted - 2013.02.23 00:42:00 - [36] - Quote Nightbird Aeon wrote: (Note - TL;DR) version follows One of the things I greatly enjoy about DUST is the stated philosophy that it will not be "pay to win"... that while you can use AUR to buy higher level weapons earlier (before you skill up), you're not getting an advantage over the ISK varieties at the same level. When I speak about "advantage", in the case of weapons, i refer to both Damage and Fitting. For example... the Duvolle is the "level 5" Assault Rifle. It has a high CPU requirement, meaning that it is intended to be used with higher level suits. Yes, you can squeeze it onto a lower level suit, but not without gimping your fitting and making yourself a glass cannon. So.... here's my question. The "Killswitch" GEK is a lower level weapon than the Duvolle, is available only for AUR, and has both lower fitting requirements and a higher DPS (DPS calculated using this spreadsheet). So... while I am all for a Duvolle equivalent (damage and fittings) being offered at the level 4 or level 3 range, I have a significant problem with a gun that surpasses the top-tier ISK variety, both in damage and fitting requirements, but is only available for AUR. So, CCP (or anyone else), can you please explain to me how the Killswitch doesn't break the "no pay to win" philosophy. TL;DR - The AUR assault rifle "Killswitch" GEK is better than other available "bought with ISK" weapons, and therefore breaks the "no pay to win" ideal, as stated by CCP. **** man, we can edit that. make it viewers only.
Israckcatarac Opus Arcana Orion Empire 3	Posted - 2013.02.23 00:43:00 - [37] - Quote Just about every tier 2 and tier 4 weapon is inferior to there tier 1 and tier 3 why? Because CCP has to make a living or why bother spending millions in development. People will buy the tier 2 and tier 4 AUR weapons in place of the standard. And please keep buying them don't stop for 1 second. Some one has to pay the light bill and I prefer it to be you.
neausea 1987 Krullefor Organization Minmatar Republic 0	Posted - 2013.02.23 00:56:00 - [38] - Quote Green Living wrote: I have yet to see a Killswitch kill on my kill feed and i'm a daily player. i ses the killswitch from time to time but not as often as you think though. i have about 30 myself that i never use i just dont find the need to use em' hell im fine with the assault rifle or the gek if the suit im shooting at is adv or prototype otherwise the killswitck is just a cool sounding name for a gun lol
Maken Tosch Planetary Response Organisation Test Friends Please Ignore 1593	Posted - 2013.02.23 02:56:00 - [39] - Quote There is no "pay-to-get-ahead" or "pay-to-win". Only "pay-to-get-stuff-sooner-but-for-a-short-time-until-you-train-up-to-use-the-ISK-variants-which-basically-makes-you-drop-the-AUR-stuff-later-on-and-only-then-the-AUR-stuff-to-show-off"


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