DUST Search - Through the Eye of a Newb

Han Jammer wrote:

Apologies, did look at feedback but as it was more general I though here would be good. Will know for next time chap!

Thanks for the tips all! Really appreciated, will make sure to check these out when I load it up next!

Not sure there's as big an overlap between FPS and MMO players as CCP think. With an MMO rather than a skill based progression it might lead to uptake inertia - if ppl are going to get owned left, right and centre it might just get dumped. And for the scale they are attempting it needs to be made FPS first.

High tracking TTK and large open maps doesn't seem that good a fit IMHO, especially against snipers. If you get the drop on someone they should go down. This is risk/reward to FPS players not equipment. Whats fun worrying about some rifle or tank / plane you've shelled out for. It's about winning and it's about killing to many people who will play this game as a casual. And they really need to be thought about to get the volume of players over the life this game is planned for.

I'm also not seeing the angles being created for epic battles to occur. In an FPS map huge care is taken when placing walls, cover, boxes, windows, crates, walkways, grass mounds, river ends and a thousand other assets. Where they are put completely affects a game and details like this are needed otherwise people just walk towards each other spamming fire knowing you can't take on a group by flanking / using cover. That would get boring very quickly.

Understand it beta, just wondering if CCP understand the competition they're up against. Well honed slick presentation maybe, but backed by some really solid map design and combat experiences.

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Han Jammer Edimmu Warfighters Gallente Federation 6	Posted - 2013.02.20 19:23:00 - [1] - Quote Hey all, thought it might be a good idea to get some views from new players, both to FPS and or DUST514/EVE. Hopefully we might be able to contribute some thoughts and ideas on the game. Both as it is in Beta and where it could be on release. My history in FPS goes from starting out with Join Operations (PC), BF2 (PC), BCBC2 (PS3), then finally BF3 (PS3). I like full and large scale games with a wide choice of play-styles and unit types. All based on a solid, effective infantry gameplay core. Harsh options like team-killing, ability to full cap out the opposing team and no hud style gameplay are good with me, I like the option to go hardcore if I choose.. Weapon and player handling is vital, second only to map design. You should be an effective solider from the start. My thoughts will be from a newb to Eve but experienced at FPS. Been interested in Dust and kept up with it's progress; would love to see it do well...... ON THE GROUND Controls feel off - very difficult to describe though. Movement is sluggish yet twitchy when in ADS. Work on the aim-assist, i imagine that coding this area can get very technical but is vital for a solid weapon handling experience. There's a fine line between aim-bot and a background hand assisting. It is the make or break of FPS - player / weapon control must be spot on. Snappy and responsive yet capable of fine control while ADS. Getting good at weapon handling but controlling recoil should be one of the prime ways at improving as a player - it gives you something to practice and hone, either intentionally or accidentally over time. TTK seems far too high - I don't know enough about the equipment, probably they're running shields and stuff. Been far more of a threat since I've started running militia assault primary and SMG secondary. PLAYER / SOLIDER Market Too stylised descriptions - I understand there is a heavy backstory and a strong theme which is suited to some, but the layers and types of equipment really are obtuse. This will heavily limit up-take from the casual core of FPS players. Most people will not go on a forum to look up info here and there, they want to jump in and play. Idea - Basic tutorial when you first spawn in, covering the suit you wear and starting options. Progression Your starting abilities and equipment should be more than capable of holding your own. The increase in your ability to be a valuable player should come from knowledge gained by playing. Be it good routes, spots, fire control etc. Too focused on technical progression and abilities. It will destroy the long term staying power of the game. High skill level attainable by playing not buying (understand it free to play but get creative with what you sell). MAPS General I feel there isn't enough connection with the map you are playing; It isn't clear what the name of the map is even. Idea - intro gfx showing a decent pic, perhaps with info on objectives / back-story Design Map flow has not come across well so far. It is a hugely underrated skill to designing effective, playable maps. The core of the layout much be form follows function which I'm not sure I see during my matches. Far far to large a distance between buildings on some maps. It is apparent the devs wanted impressive, large maps but instead have spread out and scaled up rather than get the vital details right. Buildings would always occur from logical decisions, especially in military installations. So in any game world, the setting must make sense - there won't just be random buildings scattered about. Spawning You should always be able to spawn at a safe base, and from it be able to work your way into a map. I personally don't believe it should ever be possible to be insta-killed when spawning at your home base unless it's cappable. To many times games have resulted in a team being camped to the point of killing spawning players at the home base. This severely hampers teamplay. Idea - Emplaced user or auto controlled weapons guarding the main spawn base. Idea - Decent / enough cover to be able to filter out towards objectives. Movement There needs to be basic transport on the map to move about. It doesn't need to be a full scale armoured vehicle but it should be workable. Perhaps it might change when larger population matches start and players dedicate themselves to being a pilot; transporting people around as their chosen role. But I don't think it should be left to chance. Agree, disagree?? What's your thoughts on how Dust can improve as it moves towards release day?
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS. 3064	Posted - 2013.02.20 19:48:00 - [2] - Quote Hi, and welcome. Feedback section is here https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=topics&f=730 , but a GM can move it to the proper section. Controls do feel off. I think I know why, there is no acceleration to the sensitivity unlike other console shooters. Please support my thread to help us get acceleration. https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=59526&find=unread Starter gear is not the best, but its certainly effective. Experience with the game makes the most difference, you have to know how to intelligently craft new fittings from the cheap militia gear. Militia gear doesn't need any skill level to use, and for the most part are equivalent to standard gear with a few drawback. Progression does make a big difference, but its much less than it seems. About the maps, they will be procedurally generated from height maps, planetary infrastructure pieces like outposts, and different moods (lighting, textures, vegetation later on). There are thousands of planets in the New Eden universe, but you will get more of a sense of connection to them when the star map is back in the game, it will let you visually browse through star groups, solar systems, and planets. One day we will be fighting over control of those planets, but the current battles have us fighting on behalf of NPCs that hire us. For traversal of large maps, call in your free unlimited LAV. Its a free way to get around. Press right on the d-pad, select vehicles, and select your starter LAV. It will be brought to your location by a cloaked transport drone. The player count will increase, so maps will feel less empty. Spawning is a known issue, they're working on it. Like I said before, there is a basic transport, your free unlimited LAV, but you need to call it in.
Val'herik Dorn CrimeWave Syndicate 264	Posted - 2013.02.20 19:49:00 - [3] - Quote I agree with some of your points but disagree with others. Controls need some love but I am will to give ccp the benefit of the doubt since this is their first fps i see improvements coming in time. On your point about TTK In twitch shooters like bf cod and others TTK is basically insta if your good and almost instant if your ok. In dust TTK can be affect by a larger number of factors your skills their skills, your gear their gear even the bullets type your shooting affects TTK. It isnt broken it is more or less working as intended dust is a tracking shooter a little slower than what people are used to but a much more enjoyable experience once you figure out the mechanics. The stylized descriptions are just flavor text for the lore geeks to consume and enjoy you can ignore it completely for the attributes page that should eventually have more stats and more relevant info than is currently provided (not sure why this is lacking CCP has extensive experience with stats from eve) There is already a free Transport. Everyone gets a free vehicle they can call in and not worry about losing. I believe that in Dust514 there should NEVER be a vehicle that just spawns in and sits there till a noobling grabs it as this game is about Risk Vs. Reward giving free transport eliminates the risk. Even the free LAV is a risk because it is utter trash and dies if someone sneezes at it. so if your running more than free gear its a risk just looking at it especially since you have to actually call the thing in and wait around for it while snipers and anyone else is just waiting to put a shiny projectile into you brain pan. The Maps do need love but again first shooter I am hoping that they learn quickly how to implement new and better things for them. I saved what i think is the most important for last. Progression Unlike COD BF or just about any other FPS game EVER Progression in dust actually matters. instead of just getting different variations of weapons gear etc. Improving your skills grants access to more powerful versions now take into account that some skills actually make it easier to fit different modules or even use more than you could without skills is a mind blowing amount of customization While in some games it feels like you are progressing you really aren't, in cod sure you unlock different guns but by in large they just work differently than the others while damage remains almost flat. When you start of dust your gear sucks... it may do STD damage but it has serious flaws that can get you killed limit fittings and generally just suck. It should make you want to progress and unlock the better gear make you want to compete and realize that the more you are willing to risk in a match the better chance you should have. Now if you absolutely suck at FPS odds are even the perfect fit won't help you because a good enough player can stomp you into the dirt with crap. But if your an average player the gear will open up new play styles and opportunities for you. I am good nowhere near the best but good enough. I only run a sever but i can fit a proto MD proto injector and a mix of adv and std stuff in the rest of the slots because i have progressed to the point that my cpu/pg reduction skills for things allow it. So progression in dust should be hard because the rewards are worth it. Also welcome to New Eden! Remember suicide in public areas is strictly prohibited!
semperfi1999 Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 317	Posted - 2013.02.20 19:50:00 - [4] - Quote The idea of an MMO is that you do get alot stronger. If you skilled enough you can overcome this but if you give 2 ppl of equal skill but unequal setup the person with the better setup will win 9 times out of 10. TTK havent heard that in a while. This game does a good job with giving high health. Its as it should be. TTK should never be low in a good FPS. Low TTK just promotes camping which BF3 was horrible for. Everyone has access to a free vehicle. Call it in if you want to drive somewhere. Most of your other points are answered more with...this is a beta still yes some things need to be tweaked and added and yes we need to give CCP feedback but dont expect that this game is ready to be released.....it is in a true beta still. Spawning in your main zone is always safe unless you are talking about ambush (or you are bad enough to let the other team run into your zone and kill you then run out).
gbghg L.O.T.I.S. Legacy Rising 384	Posted - 2013.02.20 19:54:00 - [5] - Quote There are already dedicated pilot, I would know I'm one of them. But the reason you don't see many about are that a decent fit will put you back at least 400k isk and that bluedots make crap gunners and passengers. The othe problem with dropships is that you get no wp for transporting people around, leading most pilots to fit and use dropships as ad-hoc gunships, a role they're not suited for. On the progression side starting kit needs to be weak compared to more advanced gear so that players will actually move up the gear ladder and not stick with militia kit, the advantage better gear can give you can be slim but is always important. It will actually benefit this game long term contrary to what you said because it gives people to constantly strive for and keep them interested. And yeah the controls are a little jerky, and I recomend you try the game with Auto-Aim off, I found it easier to aim afterwards
Tren Krom Osmon Surveillance Caldari State 0	Posted - 2013.02.20 20:07:00 - [6] - Quote Han Jammer wrote: MAPS General I feel there isn't enough connection with the map you are playing; It isn't clear what the name of the map is even. Idea - intro gfx showing a decent pic, perhaps with info on objectives / back-story Design Map flow has not come across well so far. It is a hugely underrated skill to designing effective, playable maps. The core of the layout much be form follows function which I'm not sure I see during my matches. Far far to large a distance between buildings on some maps. It is apparent the devs wanted impressive, large maps but instead have spread out and scaled up rather than get the vital details right. Buildings would always occur from logical decisions, especially in military installations. So in any game world, the setting must make sense - there won't just be random buildings scattered about. Firstly, the reason the maps don't have names, is because when the game is finished there are going to be hundreds of solar system, each having multiple planets, each having multiple battlefields, thus, you can't come up with a name for each one. I do like the idea of map info, telling you what planet, what kind of planet, weather conditions ect. Second, the maps in the finished game are going to be a few miles across, so much bigger than they currently are. I believe they are also going to be using some sort of map generator, to fill all of the planets and such.

GM Vegas Game Masters C C P Alliance 310	Posted - 2013.02.20 20:13:00 - [7] - Quote Moved to the appropriate section. Thanks for taking the time to post some feedback.

Han Jammer Edimmu Warfighters Gallente Federation 6	Posted - 2013.02.20 20:22:00 - [8] - Quote Apologies, did look at feedback but as it was more general I though here would be good. Will know for next time chap! Thanks for the tips all! Really appreciated, will make sure to check these out when I load it up next! Not sure there's as big an overlap between FPS and MMO players as CCP think. With an MMO rather than a skill based progression it might lead to uptake inertia - if ppl are going to get owned left, right and centre it might just get dumped. And for the scale they are attempting it needs to be made FPS first. High tracking TTK and large open maps doesn't seem that good a fit IMHO, especially against snipers. If you get the drop on someone they should go down. This is risk/reward to FPS players not equipment. Whats fun worrying about some rifle or tank / plane you've shelled out for. It's about winning and it's about killing to many people who will play this game as a casual. And they really need to be thought about to get the volume of players over the life this game is planned for. I'm also not seeing the angles being created for epic firefights to occur yet, sure they will come. In an FPS map though huge care is taken when placing walls, cover, boxes, windows, crates, walkways, grass mounds, river ends and a thousand other assets. Where they are put completely affects a game and details like this are needed otherwise people just walk towards each other spamming fire knowing you can't take on a group by flanking / using cover. That would get boring very quickly. Edit Had look at the seeding video and i do like their ideas and scale of thinking. Understand it beta, just wondering if CCP understand the competition they're up against. Well honed slick presentation maybe, but backed by some really solid map design and combat experiences.
Val'herik Dorn CrimeWave Syndicate 264	Posted - 2013.02.20 20:38:00 - [9] - Quote Han Jammer wrote: Apologies, did look at feedback but as it was more general I though here would be good. Will know for next time chap! Thanks for the tips all! Really appreciated, will make sure to check these out when I load it up next! Not sure there's as big an overlap between FPS and MMO players as CCP think. With an MMO rather than a skill based progression it might lead to uptake inertia - if ppl are going to get owned left, right and centre it might just get dumped. And for the scale they are attempting it needs to be made FPS first. High tracking TTK and large open maps doesn't seem that good a fit IMHO, especially against snipers. If you get the drop on someone they should go down. This is risk/reward to FPS players not equipment. Whats fun worrying about some rifle or tank / plane you've shelled out for. It's about winning and it's about killing to many people who will play this game as a casual. And they really need to be thought about to get the volume of players over the life this game is planned for. I'm also not seeing the angles being created for epic battles to occur. In an FPS map huge care is taken when placing walls, cover, boxes, windows, crates, walkways, grass mounds, river ends and a thousand other assets. Where they are put completely affects a game and details like this are needed otherwise people just walk towards each other spamming fire knowing you can't take on a group by flanking / using cover. That would get boring very quickly. Understand it beta, just wondering if CCP understand the competition they're up against. Well honed slick presentation maybe, but backed by some really solid map design and combat experiences. The maps are going to get bigger so will player count per match. If you get the drop on someone they should go down... but if you have no idea what your doing and get the drop but shoot them in the legs a bunch and miss a lot anyone but a scout suit will probably just turn around and mow you down. this game rewards skill and innovative gear use. One thing to remember are the various types of suits... heavies are walking tanks and cqc masters so if you dont kill them quick they will ruin your day... hard if they are worth half their weight in salt. Its the mix of both worlds. I have a friend who until recently (aka i tied him to a chair and made him play an MMO) hated them he would constantly rag on them then he tried dust saw the complexity and about **** himself with glee at the sheer number of option available to him unlike most games. MMO parts are a bigger pick up than you would think especially for players who realize that they control what they use almost entirely not the game company saying here you use this this ooooorrrr this and thats it. You want a heavy with nothing but two sub-machine guns yea sure why not? scout suit with a mass driver (actually quite effective) go for it. The MMO parts will complement the FPS bits once both are fixed up better. FPSMMO is still an FPS but with MOAR stuff to do MOAR stuff to use MOAR stuff to kill. The game can be slow but when your in a well balanced match the game will go from WHERE ARE THE REDDOTS!!?!?!?! to ERMAHGURD where are they coming from!? Right now most of CCPS devs have only made internet spaceships with a few magvets thrown in once they get more experience especially with map design i see it getting better. Right now we are only fighting on temperate planets so running around outside over large battlefields makes sense. more building would be nice but their coming... when they introduce say gas planets... floating installations (think cloud city) shattered planets (fighting on a broken/breaking planet) whole new map experiences are coming just not fast. Dust is not meant to be a typical shooter its meant to be something we have rarely seen before and it is shaping up (albeit slowly) to being that! don't give up this isn't cod that is replaced every 12 months.
Alcare Xavier Golden DUST University Ivy League 30	Posted - 2013.02.20 20:53:00 - [10] - Quote Val'herik Dorn wrote: The game can be slow but when your in a well balanced match the game will go from WHERE ARE THE REDDOTS!!?!?!?! to ERMAHGURD where are they coming from!? Thanks for making me snort coffee...! LOL

Han Jammer Edimmu Warfighters Gallente Federation 6	Posted - 2013.02.20 21:02:00 - [11] - Quote I'm looking forward to it, I hope it does well, a lot to do though... There's big changes ahead with the new PS4 though. Rumored Nov release, and strong chance of 64 player BF4 on the console means tough competition for Dust. Could this be the new no.1 shooter on the now legacy console, or can the code be ported? PS3 might be the cheap option for people new to consoles and fancy a blueray player. With this game, if it has an easy learning curve, being a big attraction for new sales?? If they work hard on the micro as well as the macro ideas then hopefully yes.
semperfi1999 Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 317	Posted - 2013.02.20 21:13:00 - [12] - Quote I am glad you have taken interest in this game but low TTK is usually bad. If you get the drop on someone even in this game you should be able to win. If you dont win its because the other person outskilled you. Low TTK basically means that people who are bad can do alot better because they dont have to worry about being turned on. Not in this game if your bad then you will be turned on and killed. This game is more about who is better at tracking and taking down their target...not who can get the lucky drop on the other person and hit their button first. In this way the game definitely wins over COD of BF3 easy.
SSBBW Amber Church of the Unforgiven 26	Posted - 2013.02.20 22:37:00 - [13] - Quote I agree with some of the points the OP has given, but I'm not sure he understands the full aspect of what DUST is to be. I'd be curious to know if the OP plays EvE at all as well. While I can certainly understand where the casual FPS player might be put off by DUST, I can also certainly see where the casual FPS player may be more interested in DUST. Simply put, in all of it's glory, DUST will be the first FPSMMO where what you do matters in more ways than how you killed, how much gear you got, or how your stats changed.
Coyskurk 3dge of D4rkness SoulWing Alliance 39	Posted - 2013.02.21 04:35:00 - [14] - Quote Tren Krom wrote: Han Jammer wrote: MAPS General I feel there isn't enough connection with the map you are playing; It isn't clear what the name of the map is even. Idea - intro gfx showing a decent pic, perhaps with info on objectives / back-story Design Map flow has not come across well so far. It is a hugely underrated skill to designing effective, playable maps. The core of the layout much be form follows function which I'm not sure I see during my matches. Far far to large a distance between buildings on some maps. It is apparent the devs wanted impressive, large maps but instead have spread out and scaled up rather than get the vital details right. Buildings would always occur from logical decisions, especially in military installations. So in any game world, the setting must make sense - there won't just be random buildings scattered about. Firstly, the reason the maps don't have names, is because when the game is finished there are going to be hundreds of solar system, each having multiple planets, each having multiple battlefields, thus, you can't come up with a name for each one. I do like the idea of map info, telling you what planet, what kind of planet, weather conditions ect. Second, the maps in the finished game are going to be a few miles across, so much bigger than they currently are. I believe they are also going to be using some sort of map generator, to fill all of the planets and such. Two things wrong with this reply. 1. The maps have names 2. Press up on the D Pad and look ABOVE the scoreboard while you're in battle :3
Eris Ernaga Super Smash Bros Friends United Seeking Influence and Notoriety 26	Posted - 2013.02.21 07:51:00 - [15] - Quote I remember running around with newer players they would always let me down now its like there perfectly in sync now. If anyone gets mad because a noob on their team gets them killed its perfectly reasonable but in time that player might end up saving your life. I like seeing heavys run through close quarters building while supported by a logi or assault class. Recs are still a bit annoying but my charge sniper with 10% light damage increase plus Nova Knives are super fun.
iceyburnz Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 283	Posted - 2013.02.21 08:35:00 - [16] - Quote Hmm Ive posted in the wrong thread, disregard this post.
Panther Alpha Kirkinen Risk Control Caldari State 44	Posted - 2013.02.21 09:37:00 - [17] - Quote It is "few" people around the forum fighting for a better FPS balance. But every time some one makes a suggestion like this, the topic is attack by the EvE trolls, trying to dismiss the full thing. We can only hope that CCP will see, that Dust 514 is a First Person Shooter MMO, and not a science fiction space exploration game. EvE online and Dust 514 should be two different games, with "some" similarities. If you try to "mix" Eve online game-play, with a first person shooter game-play... That is an experiment waiting to go wrong.... very wrong.


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