Or maybe vehicles could be warned of a swarm lock giving them chance to escape? I never use swarms personally as I don't see too many tanks or anything, probably because nobody wants to deploy them if the swarms are as powerful as you suggest.

What about making the damage weaker for swarms? I've been told 1 or 2 hits can take out a dropship and you only need 1 to take out a tank. That sounds ridiculous to me.

considering how long they take to reach target you need seeking.

Otherwise, good luck hitting anything not point blank.

Unless they have changed their mind, there was going to be a new dumbfire av weapon. Although, I suspect you just want the lockon function removed from swarms and be dumbfire also. I would not object to that since that means I could have fun doing my suicide runs again. Although, the missile speed would need to be about as fast as the forge gun. However, this type of change would make dropships much harder to kill. I for the life of me can't hit a moving dropship with a forge gun.

All in all though, the swarms are probably good where they are. They do small dmg (compare to forge), but have guided missiles. It is fairly easy to modify the lav so it can take a hit from a standard swarm, and if a person wants to put alot of isk into it, Ive seen them tanked like a tank. It's just that very few ever call anything other than the free one.

http://youtu.be/ZVy6h8h9niU?t=3m37s

I don't think the swarm launchers need to be changed at all. If you want a dumb fire rocket wait until they add the Gallente plasma launcher.

Your argument is that swarm launchers take no skill. Your fallacy is that you are using "skill" interchangeably with "aim." Have you ever used a swarm launcher before to try and take out a vehicle? No I'm not talking about those MLT vehicles that take two shots to destroy, I'm talking about those super beefy tanks and dropships. The only way you're going to take one of those down - regardless of which swarm launcher you have - is to continually pursue it and be relentless until it goes up in smoke. The pursuit is the part that takes skill. No vehicle is going to stay in the same spot so you have to be on the move, however since the swarm launcher takes up a light weapon slot you have to rely on a pistol or submachine gun to take care of any infantry that gets in your way during the pursuit. You have to keep looking for cover since your swarms are a dead give away for snipers. And lastly you only get 6 shots. It's going to take more than 6 shots to take down the beefier tanks and dropships, but if you keep at it you will damage them faster than they can heal. So you need to drop a nanohive somewhere, and this adds in another factor you must manage during your pursuit.

There's a lot more to skill than just aiming.

You do realize swarms will be used in the future to shoot down fighters which go much faster than current.

Also plasma launchers are no lock arc shots lightweights and once in then a nerf to swarms can be made for their 'convince'

Why are we talking 0 splash against infantry? This is the only part I don't understand.

This discussion seems to be turning into more of an argument with no side really having a definitive piece of evidence that can win this. It's all "well I could do this if this so why can't you?"

For the record I am perfectly up for changing the way swarm launchers work and adding in sone "skill based" launchers.

The point is the swarm launcher should not have a safe place if you have infantry support. This stops tanks from dominating the battle, a tank must have infantry support to deal with swarm launchers, + the tank must keep moving to attack the swarm launcher. If your tank is destroyed by swarms, your situational awareness is wrong, and you do not have proper infantry support.

No need to change swarms

Interesting.

Remove the lock on mechanic? Yeah. Because there's no such thing as a lock on weapon in reality right? I know the game isn't real, but seriously... Suggestions given to make a zero lock SWARM viable would just turn it into an assault equipable forge gun. I see what you're doing and I say you're lazy, If you want to use a Forge Gun, then spawn in the dire sentinel or spend the SP for the actual heavy suit and Forge Gun skills.

For those that want zero blast damage to infantry unless it's a direct hit, then you should be calling for the same limitation on all explosive weaponry making even MD and grenades do zero damage unless they are actually touching an enemy when they detonate.

There are those saying that SWARMs follow targets around obstacles and there's no way to take cover. I can tell you from experience that you must be doing something wrong. I regularly gun for two tankers in my clan and both of them constantly and successfully take cover behind hills, cargo containers, large rocks, buildings, etc when they need to evade swarms.

Yes, they're easy to use. No, they aren't the "I Win Button" many are making them out to be.

Finally... I can't believe I saw someone advising others to camp the redline... What can I say but those who do it, when their team isn't redlined, are just lazy, chicken hearted, mentally underdeveloped, and worthless to their team. They will never excel because they will never get far enough into the game to make anything of themselves that will actually be of use. Was actually in a match last night where there were two tanks out on both sides. We lost one tank, but our remaining tank kept rolling around staying in the fight supporting our troopers. One of their tanks fell, before either MCC shield was below 40%, and the other one went and hid behind the row of buildings behind their red line and stayed there for the rest of the match too afraid to go support it's team, giving the team I was on a much easier victory.

All the weapons are simple to use. Well maybe not grenades and MDs. But when I first got into AV and had to use the SWARMs for my chosen role until I could get into the Heavy Suit, I did notice how I was very vulnerable to snipers, tactical ARs, and anyone who was close enough to run up on me, while I was locking my target. It's the same as the vulnerability I have while charging the FG just without the durability of the heavy suit.

Yeah, I got in on the end of the swarm launcher dumb fire. Didn't matter to me as I saw the Forge Gun and worked for it. And I did read all the posts.

Lazy. I must not be too lazy as I'd rather grab my FG for AV use instead of a SWARM.

Defenses against lock and fire AV weapons... I would be all for an activated point defense module that could intercept SWARMS/rockets for a short period of time before going into cool down. Perhaps the same cycle rate as active hardeners. Though like everything else in these forums it would induce lots of OP QQ threads.

Our tank drivers taking cover behind obstacles are, most of the time, after launch. As I'm usually on the top turret scanning for threats and reporting to my driver, and returning fire if they're in range, I obviously get to see the swarms coming, and the terrain impact, as we move behind something successfully taking cover.

You guys make no sense. The swarm launcher is supposed to do all of the above. I don't understand why you people always have to come on here and whine about something as stupid as skill. Its a video game who the hell cares about skill in a video game?

All you people ever want is change. Why cant you just leave it alone. If you get your "skill" manual shot what then? will you still ask for another change because it still does not have enough skill? Skill does not equal fun its as simple as that.

Also calling us lazy because we don't want to play like you is trash. I don't care about skill or aim i just want to have fun. If you want your "skill" shot you can have it!

Im a tank driver. So i see all this first hand. This is what needs to happen with swarm launchers:
Keep the lock (travel time is a issue for a swarm duder)
- Manual fire is not the answer
STOP HAVING THE MISSILES CUT DAMN CORNERS.

If im below a hill or around a building, SWARMS SHOULD NOT BE HOMING MISSILES. Missiles should lock on, and fire straight. if a hill or a building is in the way, then too bad. Tanks should be able to grab cover. This is the same problem with drop ships. There are plunty of buildings to hide behind, but not against swarms.

Fit it plx.

Sorry about my post. I was really angry about a number of things and I let it show up in my post. Again I apologize for this. What I meant to say yesterday is that yes this game is subject to change but I really don't think they would have removed manual fire if it was not useless. Most of the time your better off switching to a secondary. Also we need an Av weapon with lock on. if all the av weapons in this game were dumbfire i dont think anyone would use them because they would be even easier to avoid. I wasnt trying to flame yesterday I just wanted say that not every one wants a skill or gtfo game like you do. after all video game were made for fun first skill second. I look forward to you reply.

Do be honest I think I only got maybe one kill with dumbfire lol. Most of the time if I got into and infantry battle I would run away or switch to a secondary. I always found it difficult to line up the shot against infantry but hey that's just me. Ive never been good at fps games which is why I turn into a burnt out toaster oven when some one asks for a change I mean I just got used to how the thing works . If dumbfire does return how do you think it would handle?

I think they should make two swarm launcher variants. A dumbfire swarm launcher and a lock on only swarm launcher. The lock on variant would have lower damage to make up for the fact that its lock on. The dumbfire would of course have hi damage. Or you could just make it that when you tap r1 it fires hi speed high damage dumbfire missiles but when you hold it down it goes into lock on mode. Thats as for as I got with it .

I kind of don't see the point in swarm launchers currently. Forge guns have much better DPM as far as I'm aware, and they're much more reliable in terms of actually damaging the enemy. Swarms are too easily avoided. They're okay against dropships I guess, but even then, forge gun has been more reliable for shooting down dropships in my experience.

Personally, I think they need to seriously look at how swarm launchers fit into the pantheon of anti-vehicle options. As well, if forge guns can one-shot any infantry from great distances, I don't see why swarm launchers ought to be totally useless for shooting infantry at all.



We have no idea how other aircraft will work. Speculation like this doesn't help address the game as it is.

Lock time based on sig radius and no more turning 90-¦ on corners, simple fix

Mabye i'm doing something severly wrong but my militia Swarms do almost nothing against any decently leveled tank.
The bad tanks, prolly militia ones, but how can i tell, just take 2-3 hits, this makes sense.

A few days ago i spend almost the whole match on the 3 point map, next to 'B', our spawn letter, just hunting tanks...or lets say TRYING to hunt 'em.


Tank pretty much parked next to 'B', giving me a clear sight of it. I was spamming it it with my Swarm from the mountains next to, but i could not reload fast enough to deal enough damage to overcome his repairing, i was so close to be pretty sure their were no LOGIs backing him up from behind. I had my nanohive next to me, to prevent me from running out of ammo, but never was able to really damge it. It did not even try to dodge my swarms or ever tried to look for cover, 'scared' off me shooting at it.
Its easier to destroy a GRU with a swarm launcher than those tanks, and GRUs still seem to take 20+hits of a swarm.


Seriously, to keep me from doing this, being a 'threat' to a tank, it should send a few infantries to me, taking me out, not much of a task, cosindering i just carry a secondary to defend myself against non vehicle targets.. Or have a sniper watching the mountains, taking me out, before i can hit it once too often. But having so much shield and armor to make a Swarm almost useless, no matter hom much skill it takes to hit with autoaim or not, not even forcing a tank to try to dodge the rockets, can not be right.
Maybe blame my team for not spamming a few Flux or Swarms aswell.



By no mean a 'newb' should be able to take out a high end tank, with 1,2 or 3 swarm hits, from safe zone, no requiring any skill to 'aim', giving the tank no chance to 'defend' itself, by eliminating the 'threat' fast enough of by taking cover. But if i shoot a tank for FIVE straight minutes, the tank should be down, by not taking cover or taking me about before, any tank owner desevers to look at his buring 600'000+ ISK investment.



Auto aim might not require much skill, but you also have to account the down side of, beside not be able to hit infantry. It takes a few seconds to get those rockets off, i can not just tap R2 once and shot you with a swarm 1 second later, in case a vehicle gets in my sight, while still doing my normal front line job, fighting infantry. I can not carry a normal front line gun, when i'm on my swarm load out, its my primary weapon.


How often is shooting from behind cover really an option, to justfy this call for nerfing it, only allowing the 'skilled' ones take out tanks with a swarm, instead of 'cowardish newbs'.

First, you're confusing rockets with missiles. Missiles have guidance systems, rockets do not. That's what the OP wants is to turn SWARMs into basic rocket launchers making them, in effect, long range light forge guns carryable by anyone. It will be able to pop infantry more easily than a forge. It currently still kills infantry if they're within the SWARM blast radius when the missiles hit. It already hit's vehicles at a greater distance than the Forge. So the proposed changes would end up eliminating the Forge Gun.

Second. Since this build started, I have been top small turret for two tank drivers in my clan quite often and I have as yet to see Swarms track around obstacles.

Ugh... don't you need to find an assault guy who willing specs into some Swarm skills? As a Logi, I'm not wasting points on it. Instead I chase tanks on foot when they are dominating the battlefield (as 2,3,4 tanks these days are being fielded at once) firing my wait to lock and fire before he hides pea shooter thus giving away my position where Ithen put my dodgeball skills to full use from incomnig sniper fire just to scratch a tanks shields. Then either I'm run over by the tank in rocky terrain or I am waiting for a reload from hell walking up over a hill where the tank may have sped away barrelling down the side of a cliff.

Why a cliff you say? and why was I chasing it? because I've been on the same side of a map from one tower and watch a drop ship spawn in a tank on another tower and I couldn't hit it with my swarms. . . or I'm dropping a hive and reloading because 6 swarms just got through the shields and I have to hurry before they come back up. This has already taken valuable time at this point and I just wanna tank hunt to get someting out of the lost battle.

Get that tank outta the redzone you panzy, till then I am left riskikgn my life standnig still in the open to a hail storm waiting to lock on. If the tank can stay up there, then give me dumbfires and splash damage to fend of the snipers in the hills and the 3 assualts chasing my backside while I am left with a scrambler pistol as back up.

I probably shouldn't be the swarm guy but since they are dodged, ducked, dipped, and defended against so well by the good tankers (or hide where they can't be reached like cowardly ones) unless the team is smart enough to spawn 3-4 AV's the next time around. . . tanks have no gripe in this argument.

The real issue would be DS needing a bolster in something like warning detection and some serious shields to take the first hit and decide if staying is worth a second. Maybe put in a flight damage issue or cripple effect instead of KABOOMing them so fast.

I think it was a SVER TB one, might be similar build, but neverless, this thing should have been down, after i spammed it for FIVE straight minutes, and i'm not exaggerating here, prolly even longer than that, went 3-2 , off 1st few minutes, when i was still thinking we could atleast hold 'B'.
No ones was shooting at me while and killing me here should have been the only way to keep me from destroying such a tank with a few Swarm hits. 6-7 hits should have been enough, something in that range, it still being up after 40+ can't be right. Being fully repaired after not being hit for 30sec sounds ok to me, considering the 'high' cost, but just sitting on one spot, pretty much impossible to be destroyed, freely taking hit after hit, not even trying to dodge it, this does not requir much skill either, atleast not in the context of 'auto aim of swarms being too easy'.

Hey OP I just thought of the smartest thing instead of asking ccp to turn the swarms into dumbfire rockest why not ask them to add a rocket launcher instead. Doesnt that make more sense?

My point wasn't about tanks, it is riddled with all the downs of a Swarm Launcher which I believe was your point and DS and LAV are just side arguments when really DS and LAV maybe should be the argument as the swarm itself has been shown to be everything from "too noob like" to completely useless to field. If it flies, you should be able to lock on. Waiting to lock is a downside. With being one shot sniped, avoiding the rock your hiding behind not getting in your way so you stand in the open, and not having a weapon in the process once your done, should you even hit it aim or not and do anything if a supply is around to switch to. Reload time, lack of carry capacity. (sure you could train thus it's not my role) All downers for me to ever use one.

I'm not against your point but I'd surely love to have 2 missles I can get off with the pull of a trigger (hit or not, that's a plus not a negative). Even if I miss, at least the tanker may think about it and it didn't cost me human sacrifice to get one shot off. If anything, I hope there are some swarm peeps that actually spec into it more, cuz against those tanks, Swarms need more damage. Or type of ammo option. I won't argue that sometimes those are the breaks on who you PUB. Add "rockets" and up the damage to Swarms for having to be sacrifical and "lock-on."

The 'aim bot' is the reason why you can not shoot a swarm every second, on a gun that only works against non infantry, while forced to fight those 'others' with a secondary.

Game has the 'aim assist' on... on the default settings.I see no threads about those 'crutches'. How is this game about skill anyway, when most 'skill' is shown only by how long you have played.

Swarms barely blow away your 'wide load' sign, and now tank drivers should be able to dodge a few more? ...by default?
Takeing cover behind rocks and little poles does not require much skill either. Is this crutch for tanks less of an issue than letting Swarm player once in awhile shoot from behind cover, allowing missiles to track tanks even behind cover?

It also just does 300 HP damage, as far as i know. All you can do with is shoot at two different targets at same moment, maybe allowing to pull off those 40+ hits it takes in less time than militia ones.

It's 2 extra missiles, the 300 is per missile , so it goes from 1200 to 1800 without damage mods. I think...

No to manual aim just because I have to deal with infantry somehow. Manual aim would force me to go out in the open, we all know how that ends.

The issue is the other teams stupidity then, where are their infantry while you are hiding behind something? I never attack with a tank, unless I have infantry support. Swarms should not be nerfed to make up for lack of teamwork

Its an anti VEHICLE weapon, so i think tanks as one of the few possible targets should be include in this discussion.

Anyway, tanks should not be allow to just take hit after hit, without taking any damage while either, nor shold tanks be able to to take cover at 400m either, behind rocks and infantry, unwilling to risk his KDR.
SL user do not have any reliable weapon to deal with regular soldiers, he can not just run over the battlefield to have a clear sight off the tank, he can not jsut take ARs, HMGs etc without taking any notice, he does no even have the same speed.

SL easily give away position , it take forever to hit its target, forcing you to shoot at where you expect your target to be in 5 seconds or so. SL do not have any chance against regular soldier, unlike the forge gun or AF 'nades still allowing ARs etc. It does not have much ammo, allowing me to maybe play this wack-a-mole game with a tank driver, maybe anticipating him going backwards once he realized a Swarm being shot toward his direction. LAV are so ridiculously fast its prolly impossible to hit it at all. aslong i'm not right next to it, in which a AF nade is a much better option, especially considering my light weapon to deal with enemy infantry, just to get into this position. My team mates are no threat to you but yours are one to me.
To lauch those swarms i need to lock 'em on my target, which takes time, unlike the AF 'nades.

Trading a buff for dumbfire is an obvious nerf.

Good luck when you can't hit them at a decent range(referring to all vehicles)

The OP, and those that agree with him, are just too deficient to understand that the changes they want made to the SWARM will make it a longer range and heavier damage weapon than a forge gun that can be carried by anyone regardless of suit.

And lock on tracking isn't auto aim. Saying that it is just displays gross ignorance.