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Eris Ernaga
Super Smash Bros Friends United Seeking Influence and Notoriety
26
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Posted - 2013.02.14 04:13:00 -
[1] - Quote
Okay so I want to talk here mainly about swarm launchers and how easily they can drop or harass a tank. Now I am going to start with militia tanks and militia swarm launchers, swarm launcher cost 0 isk and no skills for a standard assault suit with a militia swarm launcher admintingly it is a bit less then average but maybe with a squad or team of swarm launchers you can harass any tank back or destroy the tank/vehicle. Standard militia tank 100,000 to 200,000 isk minimum and this tank will be destroyed by a standard assault swarm launcher class mainly because the militia tanks have no real armor or shield, anything can burn right through them. Obviously already a problem if I am going into battle with a free suit equipped with a free swarm launcher why should a paper thin tank cost me 100 to 200 thousand isk? This brings me back earlier in the beta when anyone could call in a tank or dropship. This old system obviously needs to be reinstalled if you can get a free anti tank fit why cant you get a free tank? Why should I pay for a militia tank that will get ownt by some noob who got his suit for free?
This makes it important to get an even better tank and upgrade it to the best of your cpu pg and skill requirements. Tank modules actually aren't that hard to get if I have the best tank in a week or two I actually didn't put in much time all though that is what it looks like it is coming to. So I am at this point of buying a better tank I soon will have 4,700 shield on my tank with shield tank and shield rep and this for me is pretty good. However the cost of this tank is very high around 600,000 isk a tank which can make loosing it very sad and infuriate a player who maybe looses it in a trolls situation. So a somewhat good tank would cost you around 600k it would perform some what decent on the battle field you would think? However it is not true the same player in the standard assault suit with his militia swarm launcher decided he liked blowing up your tank and watching your cry so he became proficient in it. In what only took a few days he got a more powerful swarm launcher from the market, ATV grenades, and any modules that would give him the strategic edge over you. Now in an average battle I mainly get noobs I dominate with my average tank but if I ever get a game with even close to decent players i will be swarm launched, forged gunned, and hit by players on installations my tank will be destroyed and I could loose easily over a mill in one game. Obviously you might be thinking you are a noob your not doing it right, but I am and I am using every module, taking every retreat, and using offensive strike as a defensive means for my tank at every point in a match. However the forge gun and swarm launcher especially a advanced one is simply to powerful and the swarm launcher to accurate.
So why is the swarm launcher actually so powerful? One a powerful swarm launcher does a lot of damage my tank has only 2850 shield right now i was loosing all my shield in two to three hits this made me have to retreat use my hardeners and use all my shield rep. I tried to put my vehicle behind a wall but guess what the missile curved up and around the wall and easy destroyed me. I was of course driven mad in the game knowing that so much health could easily be beaten down by a few people camped on a roof harassing me to the edge of the map. So I am getting at this swarm launchers accuracy, damage, locking time, and how far they can shoot are all far to great. The accuracy needs to be nerfed, the damage slightly downed, locking time majorly increased, and their range downed. Or else you will have players with 2 mill tanks going up against a squad of 4 swarm launchers and being blown to **** in seconds it has happened and will continue to happen. The most a suit with a well equipped anti vehicle fit is ever going to cost is around 200,000 - 300,000 isk why should i be loosing 2 mill tanks to these players? Would you ask them to die over 5 times to match the cost especially if my vehicle is not better then his suit. I will never understand how a high grade piece of military equipment called a tank came down to the level of a noob with a swarm launcher fit.
Here is my ultimate representation
Tank Level 5 - Swarm Launcher Level 2(5) Cost 2,000,000 Cost 200,000
As you can see the tanks level is higher but cost considerably more, the swarm launcher players level is actually quite low but is boosted to a 5 because he is proficient in anti vehicles. Thus making a swarm launcher player and a tank an equal match however if the tank dies he looses a huge amount of money the swarm launcher guy can call in 10 suits before he looses the amount of the tank player. Tanks are also the largest enemy on the battle field so the swarm launcher player who already matches a tank will have back up putting him at an advantage over the tank. As you can see the tank has no chance |
Eris Ernaga
Super Smash Bros Friends United Seeking Influence and Notoriety
26
|
Posted - 2013.02.14 04:20:00 -
[2] - Quote
Yeah its pretty ******** a dumb little frigate can kill the biggest ships it makes no real since I feel if I am going to pay 500 mill for a much more powerful ship shouldn't I get my bang for my buck. This isn't the case in EVE and Dust a small player for example the frigate can hold and get you big ship killed. A tank the largest vehicle in the game can be harassed or killed by a swarm launcher it makes no since. |
Eris Ernaga
Super Smash Bros Friends United Seeking Influence and Notoriety
26
|
Posted - 2013.02.14 04:22:00 -
[3] - Quote
It should take another tank or a large amount of skilling from a swarm launcher forge gun player to actually be able to kill a tank it shouldn't be something I can do with my dead standard forge gun. Honestly I have a player in the first lvl 1 standard suit with a lvl 1 forge gun I can harass any tank off the lines and I know these tank players have been putting a lot more isk and skill into it. Simply because driving a tank takes a lvl of 5 and 2 just to sit in it. Then you have to skill for the weapons hybrid or missile plus you have to skill up pg cpu you have to skill high and low slots and for any real good modules you have to skill even higher this is still the first lvl 1 tank we are talking about the 200k one not the 1 million one. |
Eris Ernaga
Super Smash Bros Friends United Seeking Influence and Notoriety
26
|
Posted - 2013.02.14 05:57:00 -
[4] - Quote
Vyzion Eyri wrote:It's like chess. A pawn can take a queen if its positioned right. For the queen to be in that position though, the player must have made that decision.
To bring greater power to the table, you take greater risks.
In the end, the better players win. Gear does matter to some extent, but that's why upgrades don't give significant boosts. Not enough to turn a game around just because you have better gear, at any rate.
Once again, this can be related to chess. If all your pieces were kings, you'd obviously have an advantage over the person who has the normal pieces, but if you don't know how kings work, you're going to have a bad time.
I'm personally horrible at chess but I find it fascinating, to see the risks laid out in every move, to watch the pros and see their next dozen moves laid out in their head. The same applies to calling in tanks. You have to predict what the battlefield will look like once you call in the HAV, by assessing what's happening currently.
I really liked how you put this and I thought Dust was 75% percent strategy because it is still an fps that takes experience and strat but the last few days I have been realizing it might be closer to 50 50 or 25 75. My reasoning for this is because I took a standard heavy suit and standard machine gun (not militia) and blasted it 100% accuracy on an an experienced assault suit not only did it take forever to get his shield and armor to half but he blew away all my shield and armor with an assault rifle. This shows what actual skill in this game can do. I think the noobs coming into the game in a few years are going to have it the roughness just think noobs today get mowed down like they have no chance in a few years when noobs are first joining think about what chance they'll have with a standard assault rifle up against a fully upgraded tank. |
Eris Ernaga
Super Smash Bros Friends United Seeking Influence and Notoriety
26
|
Posted - 2013.02.14 06:01:00 -
[5] - Quote
But now back on to topic yes teams actually should have somewhat of a chance against tanks they are teams but I know from experience (using my meta 1 heavy suit and forge gun) that I can solo an intermediate tanker. I have been able to easily blast away the shield tank or armor tank on a tank very quickly this is mainly because the load time on a forge gun.
I am think maybe it's not the damage on a forge gun but the overly fast load time that makes it op. After all speed is dps if landed accurately take for example this:
A forge hits 1,250 damage and takes 5 seconds to load = total 1.25k A better forge gun hits 1,250 damage and takes 2.5 seconds to load = total 2.5k
Maybe the problem tankers are feeling is the overly fast fire of a already strong weapon. Same with swarm launchers when I was in my tank and being fired at by a swarm launcherer I saw the second volley of missiles come out of his weapon before the first had even hit me and we were at a somewhat close range.
Thus to solve the op of these guns increase tacking time and forge gun loading time. |
Eris Ernaga
Super Smash Bros Friends United Seeking Influence and Notoriety
26
|
Posted - 2013.02.14 07:08:00 -
[6] - Quote
bump |
Eris Ernaga
Super Smash Bros Friends United Seeking Influence and Notoriety
26
|
Posted - 2013.02.15 03:28:00 -
[7] - Quote
bump |
Eris Ernaga
Super Smash Bros Friends United Seeking Influence and Notoriety
26
|
Posted - 2013.02.15 03:34:00 -
[8] - Quote
I will be wiring a tank guide link will be posted when ready |
Eris Ernaga
Super Smash Bros Friends United Seeking Influence and Notoriety
26
|
Posted - 2013.02.15 06:22:00 -
[9] - Quote
DropKickSuicide wrote:LOL this guys just pissed he cant drive he was calling NERF to the FG vs Dropships to
no need for your counter productive troll comments I have actually practiced backing up so i can shoot from the front and slide behind a mountain structure at the same time. I think part of the problem is I never have infantry or 2 people in the passenger seats to help with swarm launchers. Of course swarm launcherers are pretty much useless against infantry this is why i like running with my friends in my corporation they actually jump outta the tank and chase after him then run back in to safety its a smart strategy that even i do sometimes. I've been better learning how to avoid swarm launchers but they still seem a bit... annoying... |
Eris Ernaga
Super Smash Bros Friends United Seeking Influence and Notoriety
26
|
Posted - 2013.02.15 06:24:00 -
[10] - Quote
Landari Zeta wrote:Alright man, as a fellow HAV operator, I feel your pain. TRUST ME. Ive bitched about this in my own fair number of threads. Just listen up.
Militia Swarm Launchers aren't obnoxiously overpowered as you may think. I used to drive Militia Tanks all the time, so much even that I know I lost at least 5 mil worth of them before moving on to REAL tanks, AKA Gunloggi or Madrugar. The way you wrote your post gave me the impression you want to go on an infantry obliterating joyride in your tank of choice.
Even the most lowly noob needs some method of getting rid of a public enemy, especially one in the form of an HAV. Just because you paid 500k for a fully fit Gunloggi does not entitle you to a 40/0 K/D per game.
Lets look at this on a real world scenario. Infantry are in possession of Anti-Tank weapons for a reason: to kill tanks. The average LAW costs like a tiny $5k or so (my numbers may be off) but they are designed to kill tanks that cost on the magnitude of millions of dollars to produce.
Why? Tanks are a relic of older times. The times when we needed to cross trenches and attack fortifications have long since passed, but have not disappeared entirely. Basically its like if the man who invented the catapult tried to keep his invention alive long past its era, there would simply be too many ways to kill it as time progressed. Same with tanks. There are Helicopters, Ground Attack Planes, Missiles, and yes, Rocket Launchers, all meant to kill tanks as they became a problem over the years.
Most of these modern weaknesses carried over into DUST. Even though you can pimp out your tank with some insane HP, there will still be a means to kill it. Since noobs cant be forced to train Swarm Launchers as their first skill, they have to be given some cheap way to kill tanks. And Forge Guns? Hypersonic pieces of metal being shot from a rather sizable weapon? Hell I don't mind those at all. This is EVE, the technology makes sense.
But screw AV Grenades. For real. I want to backhand the idiot who conceived that idea.
trust me I know I am not in it for the 40/0 in fact I am in it for the low death rate if I wanted a **** load of kills i woulda added a blaster for infantry (I am all railguns). to me a good game in a tank is somewhere around 10/0 - 20/0 but a lot of vehicle and instillation kills. Also part of the problem is were still in beta we cant transfer money from our eve accounts to dust alts 30 mill would be a nice jump start ^_^ thanks for the comment. |
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Eris Ernaga
Super Smash Bros Friends United Seeking Influence and Notoriety
26
|
Posted - 2013.02.15 06:27:00 -
[11] - Quote
https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=58708&find=unread |
Eris Ernaga
Super Smash Bros Friends United Seeking Influence and Notoriety
26
|
Posted - 2013.02.15 08:13:00 -
[12] - Quote
Ted Nugget wrote:I laugh at militia swarms.. just sayin
I was only relating militia swarms to militia tanks after that theyd have to be atleast meta 1. |
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