DUST Search - Serious imbalance with ISK and OBs

Noc Tempre wrote:

Skihids wrote:

Noc Tempre wrote:

Skihids wrote:

Noc Tempre wrote:

In a game, an element that you have no skill-based way to protect yourself from, is clearly broken.

I recall discussion many weeks back about tanks and OB's where CCP suggested that there would be ways to pin tanks down for destruction by OB's. That suggests CCP considers the warning to be good enough for tanks to get out from under them if they are paying attention. That would put them in the "fair warning" to run away or get under cover category.

We can debate whether or not that is true, and it probably depends upon just where you parked. I've personally seen a tank escape from Sniper's Peak by driving off the edge and falling down the mountain side, repping all the way down. It then drove around the back and up to continue its reign of terror.

That's a bad example, that mountain messes with the spread of the OB. If you are lucky it will only hit you once. But again we are talking about luck trumping everything which is deeply wrong for a game IMO.

It's a starting point in a discussion with CCP. If they want it to be fair warning then you start asking how much is required to get out of a reasonable situation. You then have to define a reasonable situation, and that gets into how much of an out you need leave yourself. From there it's a matter of calculating acceleration and velocity to determine how much time you require.

The mountain in question is an extreme exception, and the only one as of right now. Also, in regards to that old discussion, it is clear that CCP did not want them to reach out and kill indiscriminately on the map. That is how they operate now. You do not need eyes on a target, you do not need a "tackle", you just point and kill.


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Skihids Tritan-Industries Legacy Rising 969	Posted - 2013.02.14 18:41:00 - [1] - Quote It really comes down to a question of what an OB is supposed to be. What is its purpose? Based on what I've seen from CCP its meant to be "The Hand of God" smashing everything it targets. The EVE strikes will be even more powerful than the WB strikes we now see. So what purpose does something like that serve in DUST? Is it meant only to clear out an entrenched position? If so a little more warning won't make much of a difference - unless of course there is cover that most of the enemy force can retreat to. Is it meant as a swift and unavoidable strike against the biggest threat the team currently faces? If so, you don't want to announce it before it comes down or it becomes less than useful. It is currently being used as the latter, and a rail tank parked up on the sniping point of Manus Peak is probably going to be the biggest threat because it is very difficult to take out with conventional means due to the difficult terrain and proximity to the red line. We are all well aware of that tactic and nobody should be surprised when an OB comes down on that point once you are half way through a match. So is an OB supposed to be an unavoidable part of battle, or should absolutely everything have an effective counter? If so, what is considered a reasonable and effective counter? It's really up to CCP to tell us what OB's are for, if they really sat down to think about it and didn't just put it in as a way to link DUST and EVE and leave it at that.
Skihids Tritan-Industries Legacy Rising 969	Posted - 2013.02.14 19:40:00 - [2] - Quote semperfi1999 wrote: The problem is there has not been one good argument made against the arguments made regarding the OBS. All arguments against the topic has been essentially HTFU or "I dont care cause it doesnt cost me much if I die from it". What arguments do you guys have showing that the OBS should stay exactly as they are? Currently they are a free, extremely powerful, easy to obtain, no warning, or indication of incoming (1 second between the light/sound and the first strike is hardly more then a look your screwed light) strike that will basically eliminate virtually everything in its AOE. Our proposal is that this does not seem right and there should be a time delay between the warning light and the first strike of greater duration then a second. Currently 5 seconds seems like it would be enough time to at least try to get out of the area but still fast enough that if you arent on the ball your dead (even then you might die anyway). If CCP comes back and says actually strikes are working exactly as we wanted them to as we want them to eliminate everything in the area and not be hard to obtain in a match. Well then the argument is over CCP is designing the game they want to see and if that is what they want we cant argue with it other than to as they say HTFU or leave. However until CCP actually says that this is up for debate. Personally I would like someone to put forth a better argument then the red herrings or HTFU arguments that abound on this thread. I am actually very open to others opinions and if you have valid points I could possibly change my mind.........so convince me. And that gets back to my point: What mission does CCP see for the OB? It's a great DUST/EVE connection, and it fulfills that part very well. But beyond that, what is it supposed to be for? Is it supposed to be "fair" or not? If so, just what constitutes fair?
Skihids Tritan-Industries Legacy Rising 969	Posted - 2013.02.14 20:07:00 - [3] - Quote Noc Tempre wrote: In a game, an element that you have no skill-based way to protect yourself from, is clearly broken. I recall discussion many weeks back about tanks and OB's where CCP suggested that there would be ways to pin tanks down for destruction by OB's. That suggests CCP considers the warning to be good enough for tanks to get out from under them if they are paying attention. That would put them in the "fair warning" to run away or get under cover category. We can debate whether or not that is true, and it probably depends upon just where you parked. I've personally seen a tank escape from Sniper's Peak by driving off the edge and falling down the mountain side, repping all the way down. It then drove around the back and up to continue its reign of terror.
Skihids Tritan-Industries Legacy Rising 969	Posted - 2013.02.14 20:20:00 - [4] - Quote Noc Tempre wrote: Skihids wrote: Noc Tempre wrote: In a game, an element that you have no skill-based way to protect yourself from, is clearly broken. I recall discussion many weeks back about tanks and OB's where CCP suggested that there would be ways to pin tanks down for destruction by OB's. That suggests CCP considers the warning to be good enough for tanks to get out from under them if they are paying attention. That would put them in the "fair warning" to run away or get under cover category. We can debate whether or not that is true, and it probably depends upon just where you parked. I've personally seen a tank escape from Sniper's Peak by driving off the edge and falling down the mountain side, repping all the way down. It then drove around the back and up to continue its reign of terror. That's a bad example, that mountain messes with the spread of the OB. If you are lucky it will only hit you once. But again we are talking about luck trumping everything which is deeply wrong for a game IMO. It's a starting point in a discussion with CCP. If they want it to be fair warning then you start asking how much is required to get out of a reasonable situation. You then have to define a reasonable situation, and that gets into how much of an out you need leave yourself. From there it's a matter of calculating acceleration and velocity to determine how much time you require.
Skihids Tritan-Industries Legacy Rising 969	Posted - 2013.02.14 20:49:00 - [5] - Quote Noc Tempre wrote: Skihids wrote: Noc Tempre wrote: Skihids wrote: Noc Tempre wrote: In a game, an element that you have no skill-based way to protect yourself from, is clearly broken. I recall discussion many weeks back about tanks and OB's where CCP suggested that there would be ways to pin tanks down for destruction by OB's. That suggests CCP considers the warning to be good enough for tanks to get out from under them if they are paying attention. That would put them in the "fair warning" to run away or get under cover category. We can debate whether or not that is true, and it probably depends upon just where you parked. I've personally seen a tank escape from Sniper's Peak by driving off the edge and falling down the mountain side, repping all the way down. It then drove around the back and up to continue its reign of terror. That's a bad example, that mountain messes with the spread of the OB. If you are lucky it will only hit you once. But again we are talking about luck trumping everything which is deeply wrong for a game IMO. It's a starting point in a discussion with CCP. If they want it to be fair warning then you start asking how much is required to get out of a reasonable situation. You then have to define a reasonable situation, and that gets into how much of an out you need leave yourself. From there it's a matter of calculating acceleration and velocity to determine how much time you require. The mountain in question is an extreme exception, and the only one as of right now. Also, in regards to that old discussion, it is clear that CCP did not want them to reach out and kill indiscriminately on the map. That is how they operate now. You do not need eyes on a target, you do not need a "tackle", you just point and kill. I'm talking about the generic situation. How much time would it take to exit the strike area if you were caught in the middle of it if you are in a HAV, a scout suit, a heavy suit, etc. Are you expected to run torque mods if you are an armor tank? Are you expected to have fast access to a LAV if you are a heavy? If so how close by does it have to be? Once you start to evaluate the idea of fair warning you find that it gets complicated. What's fair for one person isn't nearly enough time for the next. A fully decked out proto-heavy runs up to half a million ISK from what I'm told. Is there any way at all to make it fair to them without nerfing the OB to the point it may as well be taken out of the game? Has any of this been considered before they were deployed into the game?
Skihids Tritan-Industries Legacy Rising 969	Posted - 2013.02.14 21:16:00 - [6] - Quote The more that I think about this issue the more I believe that CCP wants the OB to be a "You die" button. If tanks have a tough time getting out then unmounted infantry doesn't stand a chance. I've been caught many a time fairly close to cover but never made it there in my Logi suit. CCP has been watching this occur for months now and they haven't touched it after making sure it could catch a tank. That would suggest that you don't want to be on the top of the enemy's hit list in an expensive fit of any kind once they get enough WP's for an OB.
Skihids Tritan-Industries Legacy Rising 969	Posted - 2013.02.14 22:40:00 - [7] - Quote To be more precise, the OB is not an "I win" button as much as it is a "This time you die" button. Unlike a HAV it is a one shot weapon with a substantial "cool-down". You can't go on a rampage with it. You can't call them in one after the other and decimate the other side. You first need to make significant progress in the match before you get one. You can't win with just OBs because you need to do a bunch of stuff to get one. The OB is the occasional completely unfair hammer strike from the heavens that will remove all uncovered enemy assets from a small part of the map. The only way to balance it is to introduce some sort of deployable shield.
Skihids Tritan-Industries Legacy Rising 969	Posted - 2013.02.15 15:54:00 - [8] - Quote Keyser Soze VerbalKint wrote: Skihids wrote: To be more precise, the OB is not an "I win" button as much as it is a "This time you die" button. Unlike a HAV it is a one shot weapon with a substantial "cool-down". You can't go on a rampage with it. You can't call them in one after the other and decimate the other side. You first need to make significant progress in the match before you get one. You can't win with just OBs because you need to do a bunch of stuff to get one. The OB is the occasional completely unfair hammer strike from the heavens that will remove all uncovered enemy assets from a small part of the map. The only way to balance it is to introduce some sort of deployable shield. Well technically i can since OB's stack and i can just wait to call in all 3 that i get on avg in a match and call them in one after the next. All you are doing is delaying the effect of your first two strikes until you earn the third. The point is that you can't spend the entire match throwing these things around. You only get very few to use and each one kills in a very limited area of even our currently small maps. It is a very strategic asset.
Skihids Tritan-Industries Legacy Rising 969	Posted - 2013.02.15 16:39:00 - [9] - Quote semperfi1999 wrote: Skihids wrote: Keyser Soze VerbalKint wrote: Skihids wrote: To be more precise, the OB is not an "I win" button as much as it is a "This time you die" button. Unlike a HAV it is a one shot weapon with a substantial "cool-down". You can't go on a rampage with it. You can't call them in one after the other and decimate the other side. You first need to make significant progress in the match before you get one. You can't win with just OBs because you need to do a bunch of stuff to get one. The OB is the occasional completely unfair hammer strike from the heavens that will remove all uncovered enemy assets from a small part of the map. The only way to balance it is to introduce some sort of deployable shield. Well technically i can since OB's stack and i can just wait to call in all 3 that i get on avg in a match and call them in one after the next. All you are doing is delaying the effect of your first two strikes until you earn the third. The point is that you can't spend the entire match throwing these things around. You only get very few to use and each one kills in a very limited area of even our currently small maps. It is a very strategic asset. I agree its a strategic asset.....but with no strategy to use really. The only strategy is...do I wait till I have several or until I see the red dots grouped up or do I use it right away. Thats hardly much strategy. I would rather see more strategic options for its use then it currently has and making a delay of the first strike being 5 seconds after it is called would allow for more strategic play then simply Oh look red dots....click...profit. Exactly. It is a strategic asset in a game with next to no strategy required to win. Therefore it is used rather casually to kill a sniper or a handfull of red dots rather than to kill a tank or clear an objective prior to a push. I'm hoping that there will be much more thought put into it once we get large district battles. Then there will be clusters of anti-air assets or a tank column, or other key asset that needs to be taken out with an OB to make your advance. It will cause the commander to consider OBs in his deployment of all his assets. For example it would be a bad idea to crowd a bunch of large turret installations close together covering a choke point as it would just invite a single OB to clear it out. Basically the OB is a trump card that lets you take a trick. It doesn't matter if the enemy has an Ace, you have the trump card and you win that small engagement. It's something you can accept in a large battle. It's a constraint to keep you from massing too much force in one small area that can't be taken out by conventional means. Do that and you will probably lose it all in one strike. The thing is, it doesn't serve that purpose in pub matches because there is no strategic decision to make. So it devolves into a simple question of "What's the biggest pain at this moment?" Frequently that will be a tank up on Snipers Point or one wandering around decimating your side. When that happens it isn't a corp taking the hit, it's a single player so the ISK pain is more acute. That makes it a losing proposition to deploy a high cost asset into an environment where you know you will be public enemy number one. If you do that you have to take pains to be under cover when an OB is earned by the opposing team.
Skihids Tritan-Industries Legacy Rising 969	Posted - 2013.02.15 17:59:00 - [10] - Quote Right now EVE pays for nothing, not even a little drip. Once EVE starts paying for battles we can get "materials plus" contracts and losing a single HAV will mean nothing. Losing a dozen installations will mean nothing to the corp fighting cost wise, and nothing much in reputation as long as they win. OB's are trump cards, and the bigger the OB, the bigger the trump. The more I think about it the more apt the analogy. When you lay your trump card your opponent doesn't get to pull his Ace back to use another time. Nope. You use up your trump card and he loses his Ace. There is no warning other than the fact you haven't used your trump yet up to that point. Once it comes out it's too late. The "Nuke Everything" OB is the Jack of Spades - beats everything. And so what if the opposition nukes the battlefield rather than lose the ground? They still lose what they had even if you didn't get to take it. Your employer is the one footing the bill, so you aren't out any money. The way to prevent that is to have EVE pilots of your own who can kill or drive off the ship that can nuke you. That would really tie the two games together. Or build a space cannon that will keep the big ships from coming close lest they get taken out.

Skihids Tritan-Industries Legacy Rising 969	Posted - 2013.02.15 20:17:00 - [11] - Quote I have to believe that CCP won't set the rules such that every loser just glasses the battlefield. That will probably be a rare occurrence due to either game mechanics (not having the option) or ISK cost. Yeah, you lose the facility, but it's still there and you can try to take it back. That would beat having to rebuild which might be many times the cost and take far longer. Maybe if you have a reputation for killing your own people it gets more difficult or expensive to hire more. There are many ways that CCP can keep it interesting for everyone and limit the use of the nuclear option. Edit: By "your own people" I mean all the mortals who staff your facility.