DUST Search - SP loss per Death

Skihids wrote:

Hagintora wrote:

Right now I'm thinking 0.01% of your total SP accumulated. That works out to be 100 SP lost for every 1 million SP that a player has earned already. This wouldn't come from the SP gained per match, but would instead be deducted from your SP total.

This, I think, would make it possible for new players to "catch up" with Vet players, and give a reason for "bad players" (players who don't work with their teams, or who go all kamikaze and charge into overwhelming odds) to up their game.
.

What it would do is

1) Place a cap on total SP far below that required to max out the current skill tree. The SP tax is regressive in that the higher you get the more it penalizes you. That creates a ceiling on total points you can earn/keep. That in turn would cap players desire to play.

2) Cause significant rage in a large percentage of players when they go negative after a hard fought match.

3) Require random skill loss as unallocated SP goes negative.

4) Encourage all high level characters to become snipers 100% of the time, discarding all the other skills they played so long to obtain.

I'm afraid that you haven't put any thought into the myriad problems with your suggestion.


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Hagintora Chatelain Rapid Response Gallente Federation 26	Posted - 2013.02.13 12:52:00 - [1] - Quote It's an idea that I've been kicking around in my head for awhile, and I just wanted to get the community's thoughts on it. See whether or not I'm just spinning my wheels. The idea is simple: Every time you die, you lose a little SP Right now I'm thinking 0.01% of your total SP accumulated. That works out to be 100 SP lost for every 1 million SP that a player has earned already. This wouldn't come from the SP gained per match, but would instead be deducted from your SP total. This, I think, would make it possible for new players to "catch up" with Vet players (by elimating the need for a weekly cap), and give a reason for "bad players" (players who don't work with their teams, or who go all kamikaze and charge into overwhelming odds) to up their game. This would also make it possible for assassination/bounty hunting against players actually mean something besides friendly (or maybe not so friendly) harassment. IDK, like I said it's just an idea I've been thinking about, and I'd like to hear your thoughts on the subject. Anyway, that's my idea. Condone, or Condemn, as you see fit.
Hagintora Chatelain Rapid Response Gallente Federation 26	Posted - 2013.02.13 14:25:00 - [2] - Quote I just don't feel like ISK loss is enough. I've heard already that Corps are starting to offer "refunds" of a sort for ISK lost in battle. When the game is finally connected to the EVE universe, and people are able to transfer ISK from EVE to Dust, ISK loss will mean even less. Yes, I can see the prices for things going up once that happens, but so will the ISK rewards for each match (or salvage mission/drone mission completed, etc.) We're never going to have the prices that EVE players have for our equipment. Nor should we. This is something that every player, whether in a Corp, running solo, and/or having an EVE account will care about. And it's more game affecting than simple loss of ISK.
Hagintora Chatelain Rapid Response Gallente Federation 26	Posted - 2013.02.13 14:30:00 - [3] - Quote Skihids wrote: Actually you gain experience as you play/die, not lose it. As the saying goes, you learn from your mistakes. The PLAYER shoulld learn. The character should be penalized. And is, currently, with the loss of ISK per death. I'm just asking for more.
Hagintora Chatelain Rapid Response Gallente Federation 26	Posted - 2013.02.13 14:58:00 - [4] - Quote Skihids wrote: Hagintora wrote: Right now I'm thinking 0.01% of your total SP accumulated. That works out to be 100 SP lost for every 1 million SP that a player has earned already. This wouldn't come from the SP gained per match, but would instead be deducted from your SP total. This, I think, would make it possible for new players to "catch up" with Vet players, and give a reason for "bad players" (players who don't work with their teams, or who go all kamikaze and charge into overwhelming odds) to up their game. . What it would do is 1) Place a cap on total SP far below that required to max out the current skill tree. The SP tax is regressive in that the higher you get the more it penalizes you. That creates a ceiling on total points you can earn/keep. That in turn would cap players desire to play. 2) Cause significant rage in a large percentage of players when they go negative after a hard fought match. 3) Require random skill loss as unallocated SP goes negative. 4) Encourage all high level characters to become snipers 100% of the time, discarding all the other skills they played so long to obtain. I'm afraid that you haven't put any thought into the myriad problems with your suggestion. Actually, I have. 1) Players currently lose ISK pretty much every match, creating a ceiling on huch much ISK a player can earn/keep. It is entirely possible to go negative earnings in a match, and lose the ability to purchase the high end gear that players have worked to purchase. This has NOT placed a cap on players desire to play, but actually ecourages more play time in order to earn back what has been lost. 2) Players rage. Always have, always will. Nothing any Developer can/will do will ever change that. 3) Thought of it, and considered it to be an acceptable loss. 4) I don't see high level players sniping 100% of the time currently, even though the losses in ISK for them are much higher than for lower level players. I do see more coordinated team play. Also, see answer #1. I'm not discounting what you're saying, these are just the answers I have to the questions that this idea brings up.
Hagintora Chatelain Rapid Response Gallente Federation 26	Posted - 2013.02.13 15:04:00 - [5] - Quote semperfi1999 wrote: Noobs will constantly be pushed further down by the good players if this happens. Also if you implement a 100 SP loss per death that would not change most people mindset in playing this game.....however if you start making it more painful then you will ruin the game because noone will want to die thus they will hide the entire match. Right now prices are being kept constant by CCP but once this game gets out of beta the items will likely start to be made by players thus the prices will end up going higher. I fully expect that, if this game continues on its current track and players do start making their own items, the prices on modules 1.5 - 2 years from now will be vastly different. Be expecting to pay 100K plus for a single complex shield module and proto suits will probably be close to a million a pop....dont even want to think what tanks will cost. As I said, as the prices for item increase, so will the pay out for completing mission/playing matches, ect. It has too, otherwise it will be too costly to play the game at all. If we're talking 1 million for suits alone, then the pay per Merc will have to increase SIGNIFANTLY, or we will definately have players hiding the entire time too afraid to die. But, perhaps you are coorect that a flat 100 SP loss per death would be a better candidate, although I prefer to have the loss scale in the same way ISK loss does.
Hagintora Chatelain Rapid Response Gallente Federation 26	Posted - 2013.02.13 15:27:00 - [6] - Quote Skihids wrote: A flat SP tax would hurt beginners, and a percentage of total SP tax would place a cap on possible total SP. Either way it breaks something. Mostly it breaks the "Death is obsolete" moto of CCP. DUST mercs are not afraid to die to get the job done. A SP tax would make a merc hesitate to go into a risky situation and fundamentaly alter gameplay, turning it bland as everyone plays it safe. DUST isn't about playing it safe, it's about getting the job done. I don't see the SP tax affecting gameplay anymore than ISK tax does right now. And let's face it, the ISK tax is much higher than what I'm proposing, and people still charge in like idiots a lot of the time. It wouldn't break the "death is Obsolete" moto at all, you're still a clone after all. Really they've already laid the ground work for this idea, which is actually what got me started. They idea was that the original clones were all starting to go insane (speaking in tongues, and having flashbacks of places they had never been) and causing major problems thoughout the galaxy (that whole 514 thing. If you know more about it, or can tell me where to look, it would be greatly appreciated). So somebody found a way around all that, and we have the Mercs we know and love today. So I thought "what if the 'workaround' was that every time a Merc was cloned a small bit of their memory was lost. Not a lot, just enough to counter the madness?" Which brings us to our current discussion.
Hagintora Chatelain Rapid Response Gallente Federation 26	Posted - 2013.02.13 15:43:00 - [7] - Quote There's a novel?!?!? You, sir/madam, just became my new favorite Merc!
Hagintora Chatelain Rapid Response Gallente Federation 26	Posted - 2013.02.13 17:30:00 - [8] - Quote eKona vinDar wrote: WHAT ABOUT TEAMWORK!?! Adding a penalty for death will punish people who play as a team, doing what needs to be done even if it costs them a life. [/quote] Your enitre post, while completely valid, can be summed up in three words: Risk Versus Reward. You, personally, seem to take high risks for the benefit of your team. You have my respect, sir. The risks you take are great, and, I'm assuming, the rewards for helping your team to victory far out weigh them. Otherwise you wouldn't even bother trying. So I ask you: If the risk of losing ISK, and the possibility of not being able to purchse the neccessary equipment, has not detered you from playing the way you do, would an SP risk? Would you completely change your play style, and no longer go out of your way to help your team? Bad players are bad players, and no amount of game mechanics, or rules, will change that. Inexperienced players can learn, and grow, and become good players over time. Bad players do not. Yes Pub matches are a mess right now, but that won't always be the case. When the game goes live, it will (or should) change things dramatically. If it stays the way it is, as a basically standard FPS, it will only become a glorified MAG with a bit of better back story. I don't personally see this happening, but there is that risk. As for the Off Topic Post: I would persoanlly be against it, as it forces people into one particular type of playstyle. I feel the posters (yours?) pain of having too many people sniping in a match. I'm a sniper myself, but I know when to pick up an AR wade into the battle. The current system, and my idea as well, still alows players and Corps to come up with their own style/tactics/strategy. But with those infamous three words constantly hanging over everyones head: Risk Versus Reward.
Hagintora Chatelain Rapid Response Gallente Federation 26	Posted - 2013.02.13 17:53:00 - [9] - Quote Sorry, I forgot to add that the Weekly Cap could be eliminated using this system. Thank you for reminding me. It has been added to the original post.
Hagintora Chatelain Rapid Response Gallente Federation 26	Posted - 2013.02.13 18:23:00 - [10] - Quote Sete Clifton wrote: I don't know if this has been discussed, but it seems like the only people this would really effect are those who aren't very good and die a lot. The problem is that we shouldn't be penalizing those people, as it'll just make it more difficult for them to compete and it'll only discourage new players into the game. Overall, I'm against the idea, it's just unnecessary. I'm almost positive that something similar was said about the ISK loss mechanic of EVE/Dust as well.

Hagintora Chatelain Rapid Response Gallente Federation 26	Posted - 2013.02.13 19:35:00 - [11] - Quote Korvin Lomont wrote: I see some problems here, first everyone is crazy about SP and so they WILL change their playstyle. In fact there is already a good amount of players changing their behaviour because of the SP system we have right now. And you have to consider what happens if you have just upgraded an expensive skill and have no SP left and now you suddenly loose SP what happens to your Skills do you lose a level? If so that could also mean that your fittings become invalid. Apart from this the loss of ISK don't bothers a lot of people because you can easily farm ISK with BPO's or really cheap stuff to make up for the losses. Again, this comes back to Risk Versus Reward. If people don't really care about the loss if ISK, then it completely circumvents the entire idea that CCP has built their games around. It no longer holds any meaning, and once again becomes just another run of the mill FPS. As for the loss of potential skill levels, you would simply not apply skill points until you had enough for a little "padding". Again, Risk Versus Reward.