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noob 45
Syndicate of Gods
7
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Posted - 2013.02.11 18:59:00 -
[1] - Quote
As a new player here I am trying to wrap my head around the point of the SP cap. Pretty much the only reason I have heard for the cap has come from Vets worrying about losing their massive advantage they have over new players. There is not a need for a SP cap when you have a passive SP mechanic in the game, and here is why.
From what I observed I would get 1 passive SP every 3 seconds. 3 sec = 1sp 1 min = 20sp 1 hour = 1200sp 1 day = 28,800 sp 1 week = 201,600 sp
Currently the SP cap for playing matches is at 190k sp per WEEK.
If a player created an account or character 5 months (round down to 4 weeks a month=20 weeks) ago and NEVER played a single match, this player would have 4,032,000 sp accumulated without ever having played a match. In order for a new player to "catch up" sp wise to the player that never played a match, assuming the new player only plays up to the weekly sp cap, it would take this new player over 5 months (21.2 weeks) of playing to catch up to the sp amount of the inactive player. This isn't unfair... it is just stupid.
Vets have an advantage over new players because of the % modifiers applied by their trained skills. Vets also have much better equipment that they can use. Add the % modifiers to the better equipment it becomes obvious that us new players are in for a difficult uphill battle. This is all ok until you tell us new players that our progression is limited not by our contributions to the team, nor is it limited by how much time we put into the game, but it is limited by a static figure imposed on us. It's not like new players are even informed of a SP cap, we simply see after we hit cap that we get between 0-1000sp (maybe 6 out of 32 players reach 1000+ wp per game).
Pretty much all I see with the SP cap is a protection for the small group of people that want to keep going 25/1 or 48/0. If you are looking to reward people for participating in the closed beta then give them a free 30-day sp booster augment or a shiny dropsuit that says "I survived whatever glitch and all I got was this T-shirt". If you want this game to be long-term then you will need to attract new people and you will also need to retain them. Good luck doing that if you require them to wait several weeks before they can get meaningful gear to survive being spawncamped by heavy machineguns or mass driv or blaster tanks with 10k hp. |
SYN BLACK XS
Greatness Achieved Through Training
20
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Posted - 2013.02.11 19:02:00 -
[2] - Quote
D*mn interesting data there! Looks like its time to start creating characters for use a few weeks/months down the road! |
Sobriety Denied
Universal Allies Inc.
432
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Posted - 2013.02.11 19:05:00 -
[3] - Quote
ok so you want no cap so the "vets" can grind even that much more farther ahead of someone just staring?
vets will still kill most of these noobs with or without the gear.. the idiotic stuff i've seen these noobs do; attacking with no shields or armor, crouching, no scoping (fail), or just standing there..
it's EVE, not us vets that put the SP cap there, they are mimicking the way it is in EVE |
Rei Shepard
Spectre II
72
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Posted - 2013.02.11 19:06:00 -
[4] - Quote
Even if there were no SP to be had, or even if those Vets played in Militia Gear, they would still be going 21/1 or 48/0.
At least in this game they have new shiny toys to look out for in a couple of SP. |
Beren Hurin
OMNI Endeavors
183
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Posted - 2013.02.11 19:06:00 -
[5] - Quote
SYN BLACK XS wrote:D*mn interesting data there! Looks like its time to start creating characters for use a few weeks/months down the road!
Pretty sure only one can get passive SP on each account.
Anyway, check out my suggestion it basically is a way to pair more risk averse and less skilled players up against higher SP ones by 'insuring' the lower skilled players so that they bring more powerful gear. These would be in merc battles, but SP could only be gained in each match if you are on the winning side. The most SP could be gained for the players who take the greatest risks, but there would still be a fair likelihood of their loss. Also, over time, players can still make a better profit and SP gain than in pub matches as long as they pick the contracts that match their skill level.
To suggest that the weakest players should be rewarded as much as the strongest isn't fair, but it is also not fair for them to have less fun. So let them fly/drive/shoot bigger and shinier stuff even though they may be losing more of it. |
the BAD FurrY
Algintal Core Gallente Federation
37
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Posted - 2013.02.11 19:06:00 -
[6] - Quote
noob 45 wrote:As a new player here I am trying to wrap my head around the point of the SP cap. Pretty much the only reason I have heard for the cap has come from Vets worrying about losing their massive advantage they have over new players. There is not a need for a SP cap when you have a passive SP mechanic in the game, and here is why.
From what I observed I would get 1 passive SP every 3 seconds. 3 sec = 1sp 1 min = 20sp 1 hour = 1200sp 1 day = 28,800 sp 1 week = 201,600 sp
Currently the SP cap for playing matches is at 190k sp per WEEK.
If a player created an account or character 5 months (round down to 4 weeks a month=20 weeks) ago and NEVER played a single match, this player would have 4,032,000 sp accumulated without ever having played a match. In order for a new player to "catch up" sp wise to the player that never played a match, assuming the new player only plays up to the weekly sp cap, it would take this new player over 5 months (21.2 weeks) of playing to catch up to the sp amount of the inactive player. This isn't unfair... it is just stupid.
Vets have an advantage over new players because of the % modifiers applied by their trained skills. Vets also have much better equipment that they can use. Add the % modifiers to the better equipment it becomes obvious that us new players are in for a difficult uphill battle. This is all ok until you tell us new players that our progression is limited not by our contributions to the team, nor is it limited by how much time we put into the game, but it is limited by a static figure imposed on us. It's not like new players are even informed of a SP cap, we simply see after we hit cap that we get between 0-1000sp (maybe 6 out of 32 players reach 1000+ wp per game).
Pretty much all I see with the SP cap is a protection for the small group of people that want to keep going 25/1 or 48/0. If you are looking to reward people for participating in the closed beta then give them a free 30-day sp booster augment or a shiny dropsuit that says "I survived whatever glitch and all I got was this T-shirt". If you want this game to be long-term then you will need to attract new people and you will also need to retain them. Good luck doing that if you require them to wait several weeks before they can get meaningful gear to survive being spawncamped by heavy machineguns or mass driv or blaster tanks with 10k hp.
no one but you and a small band of noobs cares the rest of us think your ******** for posting this ! |
SoTa PoP
Internal Error. Negative-Feedback
1772
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Posted - 2013.02.11 19:07:00 -
[7] - Quote
Considering it takes 2 weeks to get a proto weapon - I don't see the problem. It's not like if I have 20 million SP it means my shields won't ever die - I hit a high point and can't go further and start putting SP down else where. That leaves plenty of room for newberries to catch up joining late. It's not an advantage per say - I just have more options. |
Maximus Stryker
Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation
393
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Posted - 2013.02.11 19:08:00 -
[8] - Quote
https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=54331&find=unread
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Maximus Stryker
Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation
393
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Posted - 2013.02.11 19:11:00 -
[9] - Quote
SoTa PoP wrote:Considering it takes 2 weeks to get a proto weapon - I don't see the problem. It's not like if I have 20 million SP it means my shields won't ever die - I hit a high point and can't go further and start putting SP down else where. That leaves plenty of room for newberries to catch up joining late. It's not an advantage per say - I just have more options. agreed, once you get to 5 million SP, you are pretty much as strong as you need to be in any given class, after that, it is just adding strength to your other classes.
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noob 45
Syndicate of Gods
7
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Posted - 2013.02.11 19:11:00 -
[10] - Quote
Sobriety Denied wrote:ok so you want no cap so the "vets" can grind even that much more farther ahead of someone just staring?
vets will still kill most of these noobs with or without the gear.. the idiotic stuff i've seen these noobs do; attacking with no shields or armor, crouching, no scoping (fail), or just standing there..
it's EVE, not us vets that put the SP cap there, they are mimicking the way it is in EVE
If the vets want to grind out a ton of SP then let them. Later on they will be grinding out the SP to simply have options to choose from. It's not like they can train past lvl 5 in their skills anyways. If he has the choice between a fully tricked out heavy suit or a fully tricked out medic then more power to him. |
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the BAD FurrY
Algintal Core Gallente Federation
37
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Posted - 2013.02.11 19:11:00 -
[11] - Quote
here lets talk a bout somthing els how bout pony's |
Aqil Aegivan
The Southern Legion
50
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Posted - 2013.02.11 19:12:00 -
[12] - Quote
Weekly cap isn't the solution CCP is aiming for, it''s a stop gap that's possible with the current game implementation.
If you believe that making it impossible for new players to catch up to the SP older players possess is "stupid" then EVE online is stupid. Of course you are free to think exactly that, just expect to have to put a little work into proving it when talking to the devs (and many members of this community). |
the BAD FurrY
Algintal Core Gallente Federation
37
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Posted - 2013.02.11 19:12:00 -
[13] - Quote
dumping |
Skihids
Tritan-Industries Legacy Rising
969
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Posted - 2013.02.11 19:17:00 -
[14] - Quote
The cap has nothing to do with player balance. It can't perform that function because it doesn't affect players differently. Raise or remove it so a new player can "catch up" and the vet just races along at the same pace. Slow it down for the vet and you slow it down for the new guy.
The cap is the way CCP paces everyone's progress.
It's there to keep you from maxing out he skill tree in one year.
It's there to keep you playing for years to get that next skill. |
James-5955
Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz RISE of LEGION
151
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Posted - 2013.02.11 19:18:00 -
[15] - Quote
noob 45 wrote:As a new player here I am trying to wrap my head around the point of the SP cap. Pretty much the only reason I have heard for the cap has come from Vets worrying about losing their massive advantage they have over new players.
Not really, I like having a SP cap so I can have a life and still be able to compete against others. Plus with the softcap being at 1k, a good player (which can be a new player as well, obv) can hit 1000 WP each ambush game consistently. If a new player did 30 matches a day at 1500 SP a match (after hitting cap ofc), they can catch up and pass closed beta testers in SP count. It's a grind but it's possible.
I pushed for them to do a wipe for open beta, but it's w/e. It's not like we had a stupid amount of SP anyway, I was sitting at around 1.7 mil SP when open beta came along. Plus take into consideration the multipliers for skills, that doesn't get you too far. New players should still be able to compete, and no lifers (new or not) will still be able to pass everyone else in SP.
With how much SP has been accumulated since the last wipe, this game is currently skill > SP. I've been seeing a lot of open beta players complaining about the SP disadvantage like it's huge, if only you saw how much SP we used to make in the earlier builds...
Now months down the road.. heh, IDK.
I will admit I didn't read your whole post so sorry, but after reading that bit at the beginning I didn't feel like it. |
Bojo The Mighty
Bojo's School of the Trades
428
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Posted - 2013.02.11 19:22:00 -
[16] - Quote
noob 45 wrote: If a player created an account or character 5 months (round down to 4 weeks a month=20 weeks) ago and NEVER played a single match, this player would have 4,032,000 sp accumulated without ever having played a match. In order for a new player to "catch up" sp wise to the player that never played a match, assuming the new player only plays up to the weekly sp cap, it would take this new player over 5 months (21.2 weeks) of playing to catch up to the sp amount of the inactive player. This isn't unfair... it is just stupid.
Yes, especially since all of our SP was reset in January. We are totally 5 months ahead of you guys in SP.
The SP cap isn't in place to keep noobs as noobs. It's in place to keep Batman from getting way ahead by playing all day and never leaving his cave.
And what do you think the Noobs 8 months from now will say? Will they say that everyone should just get their skills reset and have the cap removed? No they won't, because they'll understand that people were playing Dust before them!
Place palm firmly clasped around face. |
Ten-Sidhe
Osmon Surveillance Caldari State
414
|
Posted - 2013.02.11 19:22:00 -
[17] - Quote
I will still be using standard suits at 5million sp for assault. To many other skills to train to bother with the sp for b-type. I'll have officer ar skills at that point, but will save them for when I have proto suit. Around 5 million sp, i'll toss 100k into scout and logi to use my sever and valor suits, then go back to stuff that helps my assault fits. Proto assault can wait till around 10mill sp before it's needed.
At 5 million you have enough to compete with somebody with 20 million in a role, guy with 20mill can be few percent better in that role or decent in all 4 suits and use all weapons to effective degree.
Eventually we will have low and high sec pulling high sp char away from pub games to let new players live longer, it will be nice when added.
Closed beta had 12 days head start, change to weekly gave chance at 6 day jump. Somebody with booster starting after the open beta could be ahead of people that didn't use booster that hit cap during closed beta.
People commented it should give us a head start when it was announced in closed, we didn't expect or ask for head start. |
the BAD FurrY
Algintal Core Gallente Federation
37
|
Posted - 2013.02.11 20:03:00 -
[18] - Quote
dumping |
Mithridates VI
New Eden Research Foundation
164
|
Posted - 2013.02.11 20:06:00 -
[19] - Quote
Heavies keep killing my dood in WoW. Retroactively nerf XP plz. |
noob 45
Syndicate of Gods
7
|
Posted - 2013.02.11 20:08:00 -
[20] - Quote
Aqil Aegivan wrote:Weekly cap isn't the solution CCP is aiming for, it''s a stop gap that's possible with the current game implementation.
If you believe that making it impossible for new players to catch up to the SP older players possess is "stupid" then EVE online is stupid. Of course you are free to think exactly that, just expect to have to put a little work into proving it when talking to the devs (and many members of this community).
This is DUST514, not EVE online. Although this game is an extension of EVE online, DUST is still a totally different genre of game. Just because something is that way in EVE online doesn't mean it would work the same way in DUST. For example: In EVE online if your Titan flagship is about to get trashed you cannot simply click leave battle. In DUST you can get rolled half a game going 0/10 and simply click leave battle. I assume in EVE it takes real time to travel across space, but in DUST you simply click join battle and you are thrown into one. One is a MMO and the other is a FPS. I'm pretty sure it says somewhere you don't have to have any experience with EVE online to be able to play or enjoy this game.
Sorry, I didn't know that the last reset was 3 weeks ago. As a noob when I asked by I was only getting 1000sp a battle in chat one answer explained the cap since nothing else did. The other part of the answer said last reset was months ago. Someone also said DEVs said there will not be another reset. So lets just consider the time between last reset and when this game actually goes live.
Clearly if the SP cap is to keep "no-lifers" from grinding out and getting a massive advantage then it failed. 3 out of 5 games yesterday I was against a team that pinned us at the dropship pretty much because of 1 squad with 1-2 10khp tanks spawntrapping. The 4th game of the 5 I was on the team that had them spawn trapped. 1 out of those 5 games was relatively close and fun. |
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the BAD FurrY
Algintal Core Gallente Federation
37
|
Posted - 2013.02.11 20:09:00 -
[21] - Quote
dumping |
the BAD FurrY
Algintal Core Gallente Federation
37
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Posted - 2013.02.11 20:11:00 -
[22] - Quote
dumping |
Calgoth Reborn
United Front LLC
145
|
Posted - 2013.02.11 20:29:00 -
[23] - Quote
forum ate my post to much to type again |
Aqil Aegivan
The Southern Legion
50
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Posted - 2013.02.11 21:37:00 -
[24] - Quote
OK, since I was quoted I'll bite. I'm not trying to say that a game mechanic should be in Dust just because it's in EVE. All I'm saying is that a significant SP difference between new and established players can't be stated as categorically stupid. I agree that the test for game mechanics should be whether or not they are right for Dust. For that reason if the SP difference is a problem it's a problem for a reason. All I'm really asking is that you do the due deference. If you wanted to make a point about Dust lacking a matchmaking system analogous to high-sec and beginner NPC corps which allows beginner progression despite large SP deficits across the player base then that would be a discussion. Conversely, arguments of this format:
1. Math 2. ???? 3. Conclusion
aren't satisfying. Furthermore the SP cap is not something "imposed" on new players, It's something applied to all players past and present. While the absence of a cap would allow new players to eventually catch up to less active players the deficit between new players and active established players would be much higher without a cap. The cap also ensures that the SP difference between someone who starts playing actively today and someone who's been playing since last wipe doesn't grow.
When CCP proposed moving to a no cap system they also said they would have to change to a 1WP = 1SP system to discourage grinding behaviors. I already have over 3mil SP. How long would it take for a new player to catch up to me when their SP gains are that low? But you say the only reason people want a cap is to keep their advantage over new players? Get real.
As far as I can tell most of your problems stem from the absence of any real matchmaking in Dust. No amount of rhetoric will make this lack the fault of the SP cap. |
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