DUST Search - To Ppl QQing About Skirmish Being "Pointless" After Capped

Noc Tempre wrote:

Oxskull Duncarino wrote:

As for the bunch of ye stating that having no cap would help new players, for those that believe it, ye need to take another good look at it as all it benefits is the grinders. As for the rest that know it only benefits the grinders, ye're trolls. We know you're trolls and who ye are, and I don't even bother reading most of the posts ye make. Most aren't even that inventive in trolling. The ones that are, keep it up. I like a laugh like most others. Yer posts I'll read.

And to finish, CCP have stated that they do not want to incentivise grinding. This present cap is perfect for that desire. There will always be people that will grind regardless, but the main group will not if the return is too small.

To invalidate my argument by calling me a troll shows an extreme ignorance of who I am and the ideas I represent. You are quick to jump to your opinion of the behavior of the people presenting the points you disagree with instead of discuss the points on their own merit.

People are stuck in the one or the other dichotomy, when the truth is the variables should be uncoupled since the purposes are independent. An enjoyable game mode versus character progression is being turned into a choice, which is poor game design. That is why the static cap is untenable.

As for the no cap helping new players - this is a fact. New players can invest time to reach whatever threshold they feel they need to reach to be competitive as fast as their schedule allows. This is a pure benefit. On the flip side, veterans are already capping out every week and will continue to enjoy an insurmountable advantage. People should not be afraid of grinders, they are the people who are going to buy your AUR items with ISK or merely flesh out the content by always having people to fight with or against. The first 3M SP sees a 100% improvement over militia. The next 7M is only another 50%. And an additional 10M is only a marginal (maybe 10%) beyond that. Anything beyond that is pure variety for the enjoyment of the player. I feel I am rounding up the level of improvement, since it is really hard to quantify how having 40 extra SMG bullets in reserve improves your combat effectiveness in an absolute way.

CCP has specifically stated that active SP is intended to allow new players to catch up and reach the competitive game content after a certain number of game hours, not calendar dates. People are not asking for unearned SP. I am glad the passive SP (both the literal and the gametime bonus that allows AFK grinding) is limited. Capping the performance threshold is a reactionary measure from bad players afraid of losing their edge, when the truth is they already did, but it's not nearly as important a difference as they fear it is.


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Oxskull Duncarino Shadow Company HQ 165	Posted - 2013.02.11 13:31:00 - [1] - Quote Noc Tempre wrote: Rollover refers to the bonus SP before you hit the 1WP=1SP default. Limiting bonuses is not the same as negating every action after the first 5 minutes of the match. SP caps hurt the casuals more. This is a fact and I have proof. Unlike people who throw around HTFU without understanding the true meaning, I am concerned about the long term outlook of this game. We want new players 1 year from now and even 5 years from now. The SP system should be discussed on the assumption that once finalized and we leave beta, it will be consistent. Where are you getting that a rollover system is just in relation to bonus SP. As it is, CCP are developing a weekly rollover system for all SP, not bonus SP. This is what is being developed, but by no means is definitely going to be the final system. Yes, the SP system should be discussed. But, the manner in which alot of people are doing it is not in the spirit of a debate. What they are doing is out right juvenile screaming they want, they want, while lying on the floor kicking their heels. It's no surprise these same ones only see playing Dust as SP accumulation. Desire for instant gratification and juvenile behavior go hand in hand. If ye want to just grind Ambush, off with ye. Alot of people enjoy the possibility of a more strategic game experience playing Skirmish, with the reward of a good game and ISK gain. Fair enough, your squad could be stuck with a bad team. But, there's just as much chance to get another good squad with ye and then it's great fun. As for the bunch of ye stating that having no cap would help new players, for those that believe it, ye need to take another good look at it as all it benefits is the grinders. As for the rest that know it only benefits the grinders, ye're trolls. We know yer're trolls and who ye are, and I don't even bother reading most of the posts ye make. Most aren't even that inventive in trolling. The ones that are, keep it up. I like a laugh like most others. Yer posts I'll read. And to finish, CCP have stated that they do not want to incentivise grinding. This present cap is perfect for that desire. There will always be people that will grind regardless, but the main group will not if the return is too small.
Oxskull Duncarino Shadow Company HQ 165	Posted - 2013.02.11 14:42:00 - [2] - Quote Noc Tempre wrote: Oxskull Duncarino wrote: As for the bunch of ye stating that having no cap would help new players, for those that believe it, ye need to take another good look at it as all it benefits is the grinders. As for the rest that know it only benefits the grinders, ye're trolls. We know you're trolls and who ye are, and I don't even bother reading most of the posts ye make. Most aren't even that inventive in trolling. The ones that are, keep it up. I like a laugh like most others. Yer posts I'll read. And to finish, CCP have stated that they do not want to incentivise grinding. This present cap is perfect for that desire. There will always be people that will grind regardless, but the main group will not if the return is too small. To invalidate my argument by calling me a troll shows an extreme ignorance of who I am and the ideas I represent. You are quick to jump to your opinion of the behavior of the people presenting the points you disagree with instead of discuss the points on their own merit. People are stuck in the one or the other dichotomy, when the truth is the variables should be uncoupled since the purposes are independent. An enjoyable game mode versus character progression is being turned into a choice, which is poor game design. That is why the static cap is untenable. As for the no cap helping new players - this is a fact. New players can invest time to reach whatever threshold they feel they need to reach to be competitive as fast as their schedule allows. This is a pure benefit. On the flip side, veterans are already capping out every week and will continue to enjoy an insurmountable advantage. People should not be afraid of grinders, they are the people who are going to buy your AUR items with ISK or merely flesh out the content by always having people to fight with or against. The first 3M SP sees a 100% improvement over militia. The next 7M is only another 50%. And an additional 10M is only a marginal (maybe 10%) beyond that. Anything beyond that is pure variety for the enjoyment of the player. I feel I am rounding up the level of improvement, since it is really hard to quantify how having 40 extra SMG bullets in reserve improves your combat effectiveness in an absolute way. CCP has specifically stated that active SP is intended to allow new players to catch up and reach the competitive game content after a certain number of game hours, not calendar dates. People are not asking for unearned SP. I am glad the passive SP (both the literal and the gametime bonus that allows AFK grinding) is limited. Capping the performance threshold is a reactionary measure from bad players afraid of losing their edge, when the truth is they already did, but it's not nearly as important a difference as they fear it is. I didn't call you a troll. The people I called trolls are the ones that in my view know that no cap helps them not the new player. What I asked you firstly was where did you get the idea that the rollover was just in relation to bonus SP. Or did I pick this up wrong and you are admitting you're a troll by my standards???? The cap isn't helping new players that can grind but that's not how CCP wants the game to be played. Again, they do not want to incentivise grinding. As well, there needs to be a cap to limit the maximum level anyone can be at at a specific time for the longevity of the game. I'm in total agreement that new players should be able to approach this cap with hard work. That's something that some form of initially accelerated SP return, with a weekly cap to deter out and out grinding, would be the best way to go. This accelerated SP return would be slowed down the closer a player got to the global cap. You said " New players can invest time to reach whatever threshold they feel they need to reach to be competitive as fast as their schedule allows." as a reason for no cap. To me that's approaching it wrong. To enable them to get to an basic effective level is a different kettle of fish to giving grinders a chance to fill the SP levels of all classes well before everyone else. They are two different problems to be dealt with. There will be plenty of areas in this game to draw people in if CCP's plans for the game come to fruition. Plenty of areas for a player to feel like they've got a return for their time spent ingame. At the moment, outside of personal enjoyment of the game play, we have SP return up till a certain point and then that's limited. What isn't limited is ISK return based on actions during battles, and, as mentioned above, random salvage. In the future, it could be the fact you just spent 3 hours fighting of invasions into your corporation's home planet, etc. If the cap was removed the players you think would add to the game by buying Aurum items, or fleshing it out, will by their present attitude leave once they've stopped having anything of worth to reward their game play beyond SP, since at a certain point SP will do very little for them. Unless, by that point they'll have learned to enjoy the game play. Again, I didn't call you a troll.
Oxskull Duncarino Shadow Company HQ 165	Posted - 2013.02.11 15:36:00 - [3] - Quote Noc Tempre wrote: You have to be more direct and specific then The underlined is a critical assumption that I believe to be false. Look at games like battlefield 3 or modern warfare (all of them :P). People see unlocking items and perks as merely the first stage of the game and then continue to play for several factors beyond that length of time. The SP grind is not a negative in the FPS world, it is a period of trial and experimentation as you explore all the configurations the game has to offer. Then you settle down into preferred fits and become a specialist. The incredible depth of the skill system does force choices, but I consider the large population of CoD and BF franchises proof that people do not leave once they have achieved all the unlocks. There are similarities between BF3 and Dust. I can't comment on MW as I've never played it. The thing with BF3 is that it was the first combined warfare with great graphics and physics on the consoles. For this reason alone I've put a massive amount of hours into it, and the same reason so many people still play it. But, the advancement in gear didn't really feel all that much of a return once I'd gotten my basic gear together. Trial and experimentation was over early due to everything being too balanced. A big pile of similar gear, and a smaller pile of useless gear soon to be tweaked by the devs to make more useful. I'd only try something to see what new the new glitch was, and then go back to the old setup. In saying that it is one hell of a great game to play with a good platoon full of mates, and I still go back now and again to say hi, and blow many a tank up The problem though is that these games are very stagnatory by nature. There's no story to the multiplayer. Haha, there wasn't much to the single player either. You're on a side and you try to beat the other side. To keep the excitement up there has to be the immediate return on game play, ie., new weapons/attachments etc. unlocked. This is what everyone is used to in modern multiplayer FPSs. If Dust works it will smash these standards to pieces, and will give a return in a different way. Even PC Planetside 2 is at heart just 3 continents/ sides fighting each other without much reason given. They are great games in their own rights and I can see why people still play them non stop, but I think that if given a choice people are going to jump at what Dust hopefully will become. Either game way you'll get to shoot somebody, but the scale of New Eden will create constantly changing battlefields. That's why I don't want uber merc scaring off new merc before they've seen the scale.