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Noc Tempre
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Posted - 2013.02.11 12:45:00 -
[1] - Quote
Rollover refers to the bonus SP before you hit the 1WP=1SP default. Limiting bonuses is not the same as negating every action after the first 5 minutes of the match.
SP caps hurt the casuals more. This is a fact and I have proof. Unlike people who throw around HTFU without understanding the true meaning, I am concerned about the long term outlook of this game. We want new players 1 year from now and even 5 years from now. The SP system should be discussed on the assumption that once finalized and we leave beta, it will be consistent. |
Noc Tempre
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Posted - 2013.02.11 13:49:00 -
[2] - Quote
Oxskull Duncarino wrote:Noc Tempre wrote:Rollover refers to the bonus SP before you hit the 1WP=1SP default. Limiting bonuses is not the same as negating every action after the first 5 minutes of the match.
SP caps hurt the casuals more. This is a fact and I have proof. Unlike people who throw around HTFU without understanding the true meaning, I am concerned about the long term outlook of this game. We want new players 1 year from now and even 5 years from now. The SP system should be discussed on the assumption that once finalized and we leave beta, it will be consistent. Where are you getting that a rollover system is just in relation to bonus SP. As it is, CCP are developing a weekly rollover system for all SP, not bonus SP. This is what is being developed, but by no means is definitely going to be the final system. Yes, the SP system should be discussed. But, the manner in which alot of people are doing it is not in the spirit of a debate. What they are doing is out right juvenile screaming they want, they want, while lying on the floor kicking their heels. It's no surprise these same ones only see playing Dust as SP accumulation. Desire for instant gratification and juvenile behavior go hand in hand. If ye want to just grind Ambush, off with ye. Alot of people enjoy the possibility of a more strategic game experience playing Skirmish, with the reward of a good game and ISK gain. Fair enough, your squad could be stuck with a bad team. But, there's just as much chance to get another good squad with ye and then it's great fun. As for the bunch of ye stating that having no cap would help new players, for those that believe it, ye need to take another good look at it as all it benefits is the grinders. As for the rest that know it only benefits the grinders, ye're trolls. We know you're trolls and who ye are, and I don't even bother reading most of the posts ye make. Most aren't even that inventive in trolling. The ones that are, keep it up. I like a laugh like most others. Yer posts I'll read. And to finish, CCP have stated that they do not want to incentivise grinding. This present cap is perfect for that desire. There will always be people that will grind regardless, but the main group will not if the return is too small.
To invalidate my argument by calling me a troll shows an extreme ignorance of who I am and the ideas I represent. You are quick to jump to your opinion of the behavior of the people presenting the points you disagree with instead of discuss the points on their own merit.
People are stuck in the one or the other dichotomy, when the truth is the variables should be uncoupled since the purposes are independent. An enjoyable game mode versus character progression is being turned into a choice, which is poor game design. That is why the static cap is untenable.
As for the no cap helping new players - this is a fact. New players can invest time to reach whatever threshold they feel they need to reach to be competitive as fast as their schedule allows. This is a pure benefit. On the flip side, veterans are already capping out every week and will continue to enjoy an insurmountable advantage. People should not be afraid of grinders, they are the people who are going to buy your AUR items with ISK or merely flesh out the content by always having people to fight with or against. The first 3M SP sees a 100% improvement over militia. The next 7M is only another 50%. And an additional 10M is only a marginal (maybe 10%) beyond that. Anything beyond that is pure variety for the enjoyment of the player. I feel I am rounding up the level of improvement, since it is really hard to quantify how having 40 extra SMG bullets in reserve improves your combat effectiveness in an absolute way.
CCP has specifically stated that active SP is intended to allow new players to catch up and reach the competitive game content after a certain number of game hours, not calendar dates. People are not asking for unearned SP. I am glad the passive SP (both the literal and the gametime bonus that allows AFK grinding) is limited. Capping the performance threshold is a reactionary measure from bad players afraid of losing their edge, when the truth is they already did, but it's not nearly as important a difference as they fear it is. |
Noc Tempre
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Posted - 2013.02.11 14:25:00 -
[3] - Quote
Kamiya Musume wrote:All of this is moot.
Don't believe me? Wait until the SP system changes, then see what difference all your "Opinions" have made.
Rhetoric, Empty Rhetoric and nothing else.
People with no history of contribution calling out those who contribute as having no effect. Yet my discussions have already helped shaped the game while yours have not. Just pointing out you are wrong. |
Noc Tempre
Imperfects
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Posted - 2013.02.11 14:32:00 -
[4] - Quote
Kamiya Musume wrote:Noc Tempre wrote:Kamiya Musume wrote:All of this is moot.
Don't believe me? Wait until the SP system changes, then see what difference all your "Opinions" have made.
Rhetoric, Empty Rhetoric and nothing else. People with no history of contribution calling out those who contribute as having no effect. Yet my discussions have already helped shaped the game while yours have not. Just pointing out you are wrong. Entitled much? You seem to have mistaken me for someone who cares what forum members think of me. My point must have hit a raw nerve otherwise you wouldn't see the need to reply to someone who is a non-contributor. ...and seeing as these discussions just keep going around and around because they are based purely on subjective opinions, is entirely the definition of "Moot". mmmmmm tears! 
Unfortunately, you can claim all you want this is subjective, but you have brought nothing objective to the table while I have.
Facts win again! (oh those aren't tears btw, but it probably is salty, or so my gf tells me) |
Noc Tempre
Imperfects
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1170
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Posted - 2013.02.11 14:35:00 -
[5] - Quote
Nazz'Dragg wrote:why on are is a skirmish pointless after the cap surely it what people want to do as it rewards you the most wp.
Yet identical SP and ISK. Despite taking more time to complete. Hence the problem. |
Noc Tempre
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Posted - 2013.02.11 14:44:00 -
[6] - Quote
Kamiya Musume wrote:Noc Tempre wrote:Kamiya Musume wrote:Noc Tempre wrote:Kamiya Musume wrote:All of this is moot.
Don't believe me? Wait until the SP system changes, then see what difference all your "Opinions" have made.
Rhetoric, Empty Rhetoric and nothing else. People with no history of contribution calling out those who contribute as having no effect. Yet my discussions have already helped shaped the game while yours have not. Just pointing out you are wrong. Entitled much? You seem to have mistaken me for someone who cares what forum members think of me. My point must have hit a raw nerve otherwise you wouldn't see the need to reply to someone who is a non-contributor. ...and seeing as these discussions just keep going around and around because they are based purely on subjective opinions, is entirely the definition of "Moot". mmmmmm tears! Unfortunately, you can claim all you want this is subjective, but you have brought nothing objective to the table while I have. Facts win again! (oh those aren't tears btw, but it probably is salty, or so my gf tells me) Stating that you bring facts does not make your subjective opinion factual. I'm not here to bring objectivity, just to annoy the fk out of entitled ejits like yourself. Also, your insistance on using lowest-common-denominator vulgarities shows you for the immature child that you are.
Fact: No amount of SP allows you to exceed level 5 on a skill.
Fact: Only a small number of skills improve your combat effectiveness in a given fit.
Fact: Only the people who hit the cap sometimes but not always are hurt by it.
Fact given the combination of the above: Grinders gain no real advantage while new players can become effective faster.
Fact: Taking an insult word from a teen novel surely makes you look more mature than me... |
Noc Tempre
Imperfects
Negative-Feedback
1170
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Posted - 2013.02.11 14:53:00 -
[7] - Quote
Oxskull Duncarino wrote:Noc Tempre wrote:Oxskull Duncarino wrote:
As for the bunch of ye stating that having no cap would help new players, for those that believe it, ye need to take another good look at it as all it benefits is the grinders. As for the rest that know it only benefits the grinders, ye're trolls. We know you're trolls and who ye are, and I don't even bother reading most of the posts ye make. Most aren't even that inventive in trolling. The ones that are, keep it up. I like a laugh like most others. Yer posts I'll read.
And to finish, CCP have stated that they do not want to incentivise grinding. This present cap is perfect for that desire. There will always be people that will grind regardless, but the main group will not if the return is too small.
To invalidate my argument by calling me a troll shows an extreme ignorance of who I am and the ideas I represent. You are quick to jump to your opinion of the behavior of the people presenting the points you disagree with instead of discuss the points on their own merit. People are stuck in the one or the other dichotomy, when the truth is the variables should be uncoupled since the purposes are independent. An enjoyable game mode versus character progression is being turned into a choice, which is poor game design. That is why the static cap is untenable. As for the no cap helping new players - this is a fact. New players can invest time to reach whatever threshold they feel they need to reach to be competitive as fast as their schedule allows. This is a pure benefit. On the flip side, veterans are already capping out every week and will continue to enjoy an insurmountable advantage. People should not be afraid of grinders, they are the people who are going to buy your AUR items with ISK or merely flesh out the content by always having people to fight with or against. The first 3M SP sees a 100% improvement over militia. The next 7M is only another 50%. And an additional 10M is only a marginal (maybe 10%) beyond that. Anything beyond that is pure variety for the enjoyment of the player. I feel I am rounding up the level of improvement, since it is really hard to quantify how having 40 extra SMG bullets in reserve improves your combat effectiveness in an absolute way. CCP has specifically stated that active SP is intended to allow new players to catch up and reach the competitive game content after a certain number of game hours, not calendar dates. People are not asking for unearned SP. I am glad the passive SP (both the literal and the gametime bonus that allows AFK grinding) is limited. Capping the performance threshold is a reactionary measure from bad players afraid of losing their edge, when the truth is they already did, but it's not nearly as important a difference as they fear it is. I didn't call you a troll. The people I called trolls are the ones that in my view know that no cap helps them not the new player. What I asked you firstly was where did you get the idea that the rollover was just in relation to bonus SP. Or did I pick this up wrong and you are admitting your a troll by my standards????  The cap isn't helping new players that can grind but that's not how CCP wants the game to be played. Again, they do not want to incentivise grinding. As well, there needs to be a cap to limit the maximum level anyone can be at at a specific time for the longevity of the game. I'm in total agreement that new players should be able to approach this cap with hard work. That's something that some form of initially accelerated SP return, with a weekly cap to deter out and out grinding, would be the best way to go. This accelerated SP return would be slowed down the closer a player got to the global cap. You said " New players can invest time to reach whatever threshold they feel they need to reach to be competitive as fast as their schedule allows." as a reason for no cap. To me that's approaching it wrong. To enable them to get to an basic effective level is a different kettle of fish to giving grinders a chance to fill the SP levels of all classes well before everyone else. They are two different problems to be dealt with. There will be plenty of areas in this game to draw people in if CCP's plans for the game come to fruition. Plenty of areas for a player to feel like they've got a return for their time spent ingame. At the moment, outside of personal enjoyment of the gameplay, we have SP return up till a certain point and then that's limited. What isn't limited is ISK return based on actions during battles, and, as mentioned above, random salvage. In the future, it could be the fact you just spent 3 hours fighting of invasions into your corporations home planet, etc. If the cap was removed the players you think would add to the game by buying Aurum items, or fleshing it out, will by their present attitude leave once they've stopped having anything of worth to reward their game play beyond SP, since at a certain point SP will do very little for them. Unless, by that point they'll have learned to enjoy the game play.Again, I didn't call you a troll.
You have to be more direct and specific then
The underlined is a critical assumption that I believe to be false. Look at games like battlefield 3 or modern warfare (all of them :P). People see unlocking items and perks as merely the first stage of the game and then continue to play for several factors beyond that length of time. The SP grind is not a negative in the FPS world, it is a period of trial and experimentation as you explore all the configurations the game has to offer. Then you settle down into preferred fits and become a specialist. The incredible depth of the skill system does force choices, but I consider the large population of CoD and BF franchises proof that people do not leave once they have achieved all the unlocks.
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Noc Tempre
Imperfects
Negative-Feedback
1170
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Posted - 2013.02.11 15:01:00 -
[8] - Quote
Kamiya Musume wrote:Noc Tempre wrote:
Fact: No amount of SP allows you to exceed level 5 on a skill.
Fact: Only a small number of skills improve your combat effectiveness in a given fit.
Fact: Only the people who hit the cap sometimes but not always are hurt by it.
Fact given the combination of the above: Grinders gain no real advantage while new players can become effective faster.
Fact: Taking an insult word from a teen novel surely makes you look more mature than me...
1. Agreed. 2. Agreed. 3. Moot. 4. Moot. What teen novel would this be? I don't read teen novels, it must be from your favourite film: Twilight. (A film I have never seen) If you are referring to my use of the word "Ejit", I picked this up from being married to someone of Irish descent for 8 years, when you live with someone for long periods of time you invariably pick up idiosyncracies.
It's so long ago I had to google it. It was a newberry winner in my favorite genre, so I took it out of the library a decade ago despite it already being below my reading level. In that book they spelled it "eejit", so it was a genuine mistake on my part. You weren't making a clever reference, you just plain don't know how to spell. |
Noc Tempre
Imperfects
Negative-Feedback
1170
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Posted - 2013.02.11 15:26:00 -
[9] - Quote
Kamiya Musume wrote:Noc Tempre wrote:Kamiya Musume wrote:Noc Tempre wrote:
Fact: No amount of SP allows you to exceed level 5 on a skill.
Fact: Only a small number of skills improve your combat effectiveness in a given fit.
Fact: Only the people who hit the cap sometimes but not always are hurt by it.
Fact given the combination of the above: Grinders gain no real advantage while new players can become effective faster.
Fact: Taking an insult word from a teen novel surely makes you look more mature than me...
1. Agreed. 2. Agreed. 3. Moot. 4. Moot. What teen novel would this be? I don't read teen novels, it must be from your favourite film: Twilight. (A film I have never seen) If you are referring to my use of the word "Ejit", I picked this up from being married to someone of Irish descent for 8 years, when you live with someone for long periods of time you invariably pick up idiosyncracies. It's so long ago I had to google it. It was a newberry winner in my favorite genre, so I took it out of the library a decade ago despite it already being below my reading level. In that book they spelled it "eejit", so it was a genuine mistake on my part. You weren't making a clever reference, you just plain don't know how to spell. Quit with the assumptions, you're only making yourself look bad. I may very well agree with some of your points, but sadly you have no idea how elitist and down right arrogant you sound when you say things like "I'm a contributor, my opinion matters, You're not a contributor, therefore yours does not." Too many closed beta vets think they are the only ones that matter, I don't contribute much to forum discussions because they all end up just like this one, with petty rants and juvenile slanging matches. Continue to try and troll me if you like, I care not, I can hold my own against any numpty with a poorly thought out opinion based on crappy assumptions. Go Go NOC! Make Dust everything it could be! Hell, CCP should give you a job right now, you obviously know more than anyone else on the planet!
You are the one who specifically derided this conversation topic as meaningless since feedback is unimportant. You seem to care a lot more about me than I care about you though. |
Noc Tempre
Imperfects
Negative-Feedback
1170
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Posted - 2013.02.11 15:39:00 -
[10] - Quote
Kamiya Musume wrote:All of this is moot.
Don't believe me? Wait until the SP system changes, then see what difference all your "Opinions" have made.
Rhetoric, Empty Rhetoric and nothing else.
Kamiya Musume wrote:*sigh*
I did not deride this conversation topic, neither did I say that feedback was meaningless. On the contrary, you were the one that said quite pointedly that any opinion I had was meaningless because I have "never contributed". Hypocrite!
I welcome discussion on the SP system with the view that all current suggestions are moot as the system is due to be superceded, you however seem to think that your opinion is the only one that matters, and that everything you say is fact. Sorry, but it isn't.
FYI I care not one iota about you, I cannot stand your arrogance and hypocrisy and I will fight both until the bitter end.
Flip flopper.
Facts win again! |
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