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Vaerana Myshtana
ScIdama Endless Renaissance
202
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Posted - 2013.02.10 03:23:00 -
[1] - Quote
It is worth noting that both Scan Profile and Scan Precision are given in dB (decibels). Originally, I thought this might have to do with radar, since dB is used in tuning radar equipment, but it turns out that it is used the to determine the difference between input and output power.
So, the next most likely candidate is sound. Thus, your Scan Profile is the amount of noise your suit makes and its Scan Precision is its ability to hear sound and interpret its location.
So, as near as I can figure, Scan Precision is the amount of Scan Profile that you suit can accurately map at some distance (maybe Scan Range, but probably at some fraction thereof based on my experience).
This would also explain why running enlarges your Profile. You make more noise- which raises the question of whether in the future different surfaces will affect it as well, soft turf versus gravel, for instance.
However, there are definitely more complicating factors. Line-of-sight is a factor, as mapping behind cover is much more limited. I was doing the hidey dance with an Assault yesterday and he would only map out if I was near the edge of the shipping container. So clearly cover dampened his Profile, but I could still "see" around corners. |
Vaerana Myshtana
ScIdama Endless Renaissance
202
|
Posted - 2013.02.12 16:04:00 -
[2] - Quote
Vrain Matari wrote:...and, to contradict what I just posted, just saw this and it may be pertinent to our discussion: GÇ£Spec Ops units perform clandestine work. Trained to move through the battlefield undetected, they utilize suits designed to minimize acoustic and electronic signatures making the wearer virtually invisible. Spec Ops-class suits are ideal for bypassing point defenses or infiltrating key battlefield locations.GÇ¥ ...from https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=540018#post540018So if we can take this statement as accurate the suit sensors are using two input channels, acoustic and electronic, besides straight-out optical detection. My question then is what does the quoted db scan sensitivity refer to, acoustic signals, electronic signals, or both?
Yeah, I saw that after the posting.
Given that dB (when used in electronics, not sound) is a comparison between input and output signal strengths, it could be considered a measure of efficiency. Less efficient systems (cheaper) produce more electronic "noise" in terms of radio frequency (RF) interference, audible noise, and heat.
So, while my original response might be mostly correct (for now), the Spec Ops description suggests that CCP is laying groundwork that could allow for passive RADAR, passive SONAR, and passive (thermal & visible) LIDAR. Thus, as the game gets more fleshed out, they may opt to include modules that boost, jam, and dampen all of these. A richer EWar system would be consistent with their four-way (RADAR, LADAR, Magnetometric, and Gravimetric) scanning and EWar in EVE. |
Vaerana Myshtana
ScIdama Endless Renaissance
202
|
Posted - 2013.02.12 16:46:00 -
[3] - Quote
Beren Hurin wrote:My hypothesis for testing is that each player has a scan precision (P) and targets have a profile (p). You then get a scan modifier based on (p)/(P) that enhances or reduces your effective detection range.
So if your base scan precision is 45 + a 25% precision, then your suit's precision is 33.75 Your suits scan radius is 15m + a 20% bonus from skills= 18m Your target is a heavy with a base profile of 50, but he has his dropsuit at level 2 reduciding his profile by 10%= 45.
Your scanning modifier is then 1.333. I.e. you will pick up this loud target at an increased detection range of +33% or 24 m.
In reality they may have actually made the system even closer to the real effect of sound waves over distance, in which case there is a little more mathematically complicated relationship between relative dB level over distances. I don't quite understand it at the moment though.
I wouldn't be suprised then if the increase in signature from shields is proportional to the speed reduction from armor modules, so a +10% per shield extender module.
The problem is that both Scan Precision (P) and Scan Profile (-ò)are given in dB while Scan Range (R) is in meters. The descriptions of devices also state the P is accuracy in mapping, so apparently only -ò affects range.
So, I'm guess that the basic system is probably something like:
(-ò/100dB)xR= detection distance
So if your distance to target (D) is 10m, and his -ò is 50dB, you would need a R of 20m to see him.
Note that 100dB is a guess, but it would mean that you can only detect really big stuff at full distance, which seems to be correct. Sometimes it even seems like you can detect really big stuff, like tanks, at farther than R, so it could be consistent with what I've seen.
Using a similar logic, it could be that P introduces some random displacement error, so for instance:
((P/-ò)xD) = offset distance
Thus, if you have a P of 45dB and their -ò is 55dB, their position on your map would be off by up to 81% of the distance between you, so for 10m, they could appear on your minimap up to 8m closer, farther, right, or left of their actual position (until you look at them).
The inverse is also true, do if your P is higher than their -ò, then the error could be much larger.
Of course, this equation doesn't match the scanning I see in game, so likely it's off somewhere or it's one of those things in the game that isn't working as intended yet.
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Vaerana Myshtana
ScIdama Endless Renaissance
202
|
Posted - 2013.02.12 16:54:00 -
[4] - Quote
Beren Hurin wrote:Vaerana Myshtana wrote: So, while my original response might be mostly correct (for now), the Spec Ops description suggests that CCP is laying groundwork that could allow for passive RADAR, passive SONAR, and passive (thermal & visible) LIDAR. Thus, as the game gets more fleshed out, they may opt to include modules that boost, jam, and dampen all of these. A richer EWar system would be consistent with their four-way (RADAR, LADAR, Magnetometric, and Gravimetric) scanning and EWar in EVE.
Is there a relationship between signature radius and sensor strength in eve though? It sounds like, if we are talking about shield increasing scan profile, that it would be uniting signature radius and sensor strength...
EVE uses the following stats (these are from a Bantam frigate): http://eve.wikia.com/wiki/Bantam
Maximum Targeting Range - 30000 m Max Locked Targets - 3 Gravimetric Sensor Strength - 7 points Signature Radius - 44 m Scan Resolution - 480 mm
Max Locked is irrelevant to Dust, and Max Target doesn't affect how far away you see things, just how far away you can lock your targeting computer on them.
So we are left with [Type] Sensor Strength, which is used to determine how easily you can be jammed by ECM and the other two.
Signature Radius and Scan Resolution affect how quickly you can lock a target: http://www.eve-wiki.net/index.php?title=Ship_sensorshttp://www.eve-wiki.net/index.php?title=Ship_sensors
So, certain modules (especially MicroWarpDrives) increase your Sig Radius: http://www.eve-wiki.net/index.php?title=Signature_radius
This can affect not just lock times (for your enemies) but how much damage you take when they shoot you. |
Vaerana Myshtana
ScIdama Endless Renaissance
202
|
Posted - 2013.02.12 17:00:00 -
[5] - Quote
Beren Hurin wrote:Vaerana Myshtana wrote: The inverse is also true, do if your P is higher than their -ò, then the error could be much larger.
Of course, this equation doesn't match the scanning I see in game, so likely it's off somewhere or it's one of those things in the game that isn't working as intended yet.
Your system may be better than mine, but I'm wondering what anomalies have you noticed that seem to suggest that the tacnet is misbehaving. One reason I think you may be right, is that if the calculation is based of a % of a max distance (it seems that the tacnet only sees 100m out currently...) then the active scanners pulsing out to 100m could be that limit. IOW, with your formula, the active scanners wont see outside of their range no matter how sensitive they are or how loud other targets are. With mine they would see heavies and vehicles across the map.
I'm not entirely sure it IS misbehaving, but I keep seeing people who chat the Devs on IRC saying that the Devs aren't happy with how the scanning system is working.
What I meant is that when I do see a Red dot behind me or behind a wall on the TacNet minimap, I don't usually see a displacement error at all. It seems like the target is pretty much right where it's plotted to be, so either the introduced error is very small or it's not happening.
Of course, there could be a Blue dot somewhere that I don't see that is plotting the guy, but given how far ahead of my team I can get scouting, I don't think that's the case. Then again, I see through walls far more than behind me, so there may be a directionality factor, too. |
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