DUST Search - Is DUST really an objective based team fps?

Sgt S-Laughter wrote:

There are only two game modes out, so I don't want to cast any major dramatic vote or anything... But so far this game seems to be lacking in the objective nature...

Ambush -
Everyone randomly spawns everywhere. No structure to the spawning unless it uses a skirmish map. Straight kdr fest, so this isn't exactly a bad thing, and the name "ambush" implies a certain amount of randomness to the match. All in all, for a base kdr mode, I think this one is okay.

Skirmish -
Each team has a base spawn. These are pretty removed from the battle though, and the battle it's self overwhelms them. Often I see the map reversed as to which team is controlling which objectives. I think a major contributor to this is the concept that every objective letter is also a spawn point... This means everyone is spawning everywhere... There is little feeling of zone control. When I play this mode I get super paranoid that everywhere I turn there is going to be someone, and when I go to hack an objective I often have an enemy spawn beside me before I've completed the hack. I feel this takes away from the objective feel. Capturing 1 objective usually means another is traded, and rather than turning into any strategic warfare it devolves into a core run n gun squad basically playing round robin on the objectives clearing them all in turn.

It just doesn't feel like an objective game. It feels more like a multi point king of the hill. Might as well play CoD if that's all we're gonna get...

I'm looking forward to their next game mode, but really they had better have at least 2-3 more planned...

MAG had 5 game modes.

Suppression was a basic kdr match, each team spawned on opposing sides of the match making it feel much more like a team defense / attack shooter rather than a random spawn kdr fest ala CoD. When you spawned you'd always see your team mates with you, and even though you couldn't chat with those blue dots, they were there, and you saw it.

Sabotage featured a multi point capture quest, there was A and B objectives, which the attacking team had to capture both of to unlock C objective. Capture C objective for 30 seconds and the attackers win. Defenders had to stop this, obviously.

Acquisition had a large base for the defense and within it were 2 vehicles. The attackers had to break through the defenses and get these two vehicles out in tact.

There were more, but I think this illustrates my point. I know that EVE is not MAG, and DUST certainly won't be. I'm not asking for DUST to be MAG.

I'm bringing these up because these all felt like team v team objective based warfare, not random spawn kda fests. When you spawned you'd see your team with you. Attacking team had a set of goals that made them the attacking team, defense was there to defend and stop them. In DUST it doesn't really make a difference who is O or D because they both have the exact same goals. The structure, especially with every letter being a spawn is also blown out. You can easily spawn with no allies in sight, you could even spawn amongst enemies. This blows the entire team warfare feeling out the window. When I play DUST I always feel like I'm fighting alone, and I feel there are no rewards for taking an objective, it will just be lost in a minute. It's all one big round robin clusterfsk.

My suggestions to fix skirmish:
remove spawning from letters. Add another clone point if you think it will help, but in general have the players spawn from their core spawn, or from remote spawn drops and drop ships. This alone will clean up a lot of the chaos that I feel holds this game back. It adds some predictability for where opponents will be coming from, and allows you to spawn with your own allies more frequently. It also enhances the importance of remote spawn points and nanite injectors in loadouts.

*******************
Disclaimer -> I firmly believe these changes will not prevent any ninja like shenanigans. In mag each game mode could be won through deceptive tactics that were well beyond the measure of kdr. This is what defines true objective game play. Killing did not it's self win a game. It was definitely the most direct and generally effective route, but the fact that you could pull victories in SPITE of team kdr proves the game truly is objective based.

*******************
another thing -> turn mics ON be default, and add proxy chat.
Really takes a genius to get these wrong <_<

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Sgt S-Laughter SVER True Blood Unclaimed. 22	Posted - 2013.02.08 12:53:00 - [1] - Quote There are only two game modes out, so I don't want to cast any major dramatic vote or anything... But so far this game seems to be lacking in the objective nature... Ambush - Everyone randomly spawns everywhere. No structure to the spawning unless it uses a skirmish map. Straight kdr fest, so this isn't exactly a bad thing, and the name "ambush" implies a certain amount of randomness to the match. All in all, for a base kdr mode, I think this one is okay. Skirmish - Each team has a base spawn. These are pretty removed from the battle though, and the battle it's self overwhelms them. Often I see the map reversed as to which team is controlling which objectives. I think a major contributor to this is the concept that every objective letter is also a spawn point... This means everyone is spawning everywhere... There is little feeling of zone control. When I play this mode I get super paranoid that everywhere I turn there is going to be someone, and when I go to hack an objective I often have an enemy spawn beside me before I've completed the hack. I feel this takes away from the objective feel. Capturing 1 objective usually means another is traded, and rather than turning into any strategic warfare it devolves into a core run n gun squad basically playing round robin on the objectives clearing them all in turn. It just doesn't feel like an objective game. It feels more like a multi point king of the hill. Might as well play CoD if that's all we're gonna get... I'm looking forward to their next game mode, but really they had better have at least 2-3 more planned... MAG had 5 game modes. Suppression was a basic kdr match, each team spawned on opposing sides of the match making it feel much more like a team defense / attack shooter rather than a random spawn kdr fest ala CoD. When you spawned you'd always see your team mates with you, and even though you couldn't chat with those blue dots, they were there, and you saw it. Sabotage featured a multi point capture quest, there was A and B objectives, which the attacking team had to capture both of to unlock C objective. Capture C objective for 30 seconds and the attackers win. Defenders had to stop this, obviously. Acquisition had a large base for the defense and within it were 2 vehicles. The attackers had to break through the defenses and get these two vehicles out in tact. There were more, but I think this illustrates my point. I know that EVE is not MAG, and DUST certainly won't be. I'm not asking for DUST to be MAG. I'm bringing these up because these all felt like team v team objective based warfare, not random spawn kda fests. When you spawned you'd see your team with you. Attacking team had a set of goals that made them the attacking team, defense was there to defend and stop them. In DUST it doesn't really make a difference who is O or D because they both have the exact same goals. The structure, especially with every letter being a spawn is also blown out. You can easily spawn with no allies in sight, you could even spawn amongst enemies. This blows the entire team warfare feeling out the window. When I play DUST I always feel like I'm fighting alone, and I feel there are no rewards for taking an objective, it will just be lost in a minute. It's all one big round robin clusterfsk. My suggestions to fix skirmish: remove spawning from letters. Add another clone point if you think it will help, but in general have the players spawn from their core spawn, or from remote spawn drops and drop ships. This alone will clean up a lot of the chaos that I feel holds this game back. It adds some predictability for where opponents will be coming from, and allows you to spawn with your own allies more frequently. It also enhances the importance of remote spawn points and nanite injectors in loadouts. ***************** Disclaimer -> I firmly believe these changes will not prevent any ninja like shenanigans. In mag each game mode could be won through deceptive tactics that were well beyond the measure of kdr. This is what defines true objective game play. Killing did not it's self win a game. It was definitely the most direct and generally effective route, but the fact that you could pull victories in SPITE of team kdr proves the game truly is objective based. ***************** another thing -> turn mics ON be default, and add proxy chat. Really takes a genius to get these wrong <_<
RuckingFetard Better Hide R Die 22	Posted - 2013.02.08 13:00:00 - [2] - Quote I liked your suggestion. It would add more strategy to the game especially as to from where you will rally and attack. Although I feel that it would be more difficult to break from a spawn trap.
ChromeBreaker SVER True Blood Unclaimed. 197	Posted - 2013.02.08 13:11:00 - [3] - Quote BETA. More will come...
Matobar Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz RISE of LEGION 123	Posted - 2013.02.08 13:21:00 - [4] - Quote ChromeBreaker wrote: BETA. More will come... QFT
Luk Manag of Terror 2	Posted - 2013.02.08 13:26:00 - [5] - Quote Matobar wrote: ChromeBreaker wrote: BETA. More will come... QFT There are other modes from early BETA.
Val'herik Dorn CrimeWave Syndicate 263	Posted - 2013.02.08 14:13:00 - [6] - Quote Strategy is nice but you waid it yourself the bases are far removed from the action. Losing b and c while on manus peak on the b side base with no ability to spawn at a pretty much means welcome to the red line. Mors game typs would be jice but I like skirmish how it is. If your getting spawn jumped at objectives your doing the teamwork part of the game wrong. You should have allies watching your back or at least not try to be solo god of new eden.
CrotchGrab 360 Better Hide R Die 11	Posted - 2013.02.08 14:55:00 - [7] - Quote Of course TDM isn't objective based. It's play for yourself, win for your team. As for Skirmish, the fact that you control supply depots, railgun installments and CRUs does implement a bit of objective-based teamplay and strategy to it. As a huge MAG player with Domination and Acquistion being the 2 best and most ambitious game modes ever put into a game I can say DUST has the right idea but definitely needs a HUGE flagship mode with tonnes of objective and shifting gameplay.
Zero Harpuia Maverick Conflict Solutions 422	Posted - 2013.02.08 15:07:00 - [8] - Quote I can agree with this, especially the points-as-spawns thing. That never works well, and we've seen CRUs being installed at almost every point so they are probably going to remove the feature soon enough. And as for a ninjas, I'd love to get back the feeling of sneaking behind enemy lines and capping a point because they pushed up without making a line. My personal best in MAG was 134 C4 units exploded in one life. I want to recapture that glory :D
Maken Tosch Planetary Response Organisation Test Friends Please Ignore 1593	Posted - 2013.02.08 15:20:00 - [9] - Quote This is a beta and therefore what we're saying that that there are more to come when it comes to game modes. CCP once introduced an old-style skirmish mode which we all refer to as "Skirmish 1.0" in which the attacking team had to first capture or destroy a series of defense relays in the first phase of the attack. Once those relays were dealt with, the map expanded which allowed the attacking team to go right into the defending team's home base where the null cannons were firing from. From there we have to quickly hack and hold the objectives until the MCC docked with the base. If the MCC's shields were breached before the defense relays were destroyed in the first phase of the attack, the MCC withdraws and the attacking team loses.
SYN BLACK XS Greatness Achieved Through Training 20	Posted - 2013.02.08 15:31:00 - [10] - Quote Luk Manag wrote: Matobar wrote: ChromeBreaker wrote: BETA. More will come... QFT There are other modes from early BETA. The Beta includes what CCP wants it to, chances are these are just the few they need help refining, or are the best gametypes to help them find/fix bugs

BMSTUBBY KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 95	Posted - 2013.02.08 15:34:00 - [11] - Quote SoonGäó
tastzlike chicken ROGUE SPADES 59	Posted - 2013.02.08 15:43:00 - [12] - Quote Domination just gets a footnote? -most fun I've had in objective based FPS play.
Cyris Fortune ZionTCD Legacy Rising 66	Posted - 2013.02.08 15:47:00 - [13] - Quote Also on skirmish add points for stoping the flip timer. I hate that there is no incentive to stop the hack. So people stand around wait for it to flip then re-hack it.
M3DIC 2U RED COLONIAL MARINES Covert Intervention 13	Posted - 2013.02.08 16:08:00 - [14] - Quote I enjoy the game play as it is but agree that some of the initial random spawns suck. Nothing like starting an Ambush round getting completely owned as you spawn in with no chance to move or shoot. I'd like to see something as described above where objectives must be met to reveal greater portions, next objective as it would expand a few options. I do remember one Skirmish mode that had only 1 point. That one made it fun but a true king of the hill type encounter. Served as a good change of pace though. Also, I'd like to see a war setup once paired with EVE. Kind of a choose your own adventure storyline where the battles progress through and has been thought out with different maps. OR return maps where that base destroyed/asset built is there. Could easily see this as a weekend event, major corps battle and almost make it an electronic Axis and Allies type bit with moving fronts, supplies, etc. (big dreams, I know) I would like to see a few changes once in a while so it isn't the same week after week. Keep it fun
Billytook mandrag Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State 2	Posted - 2013.02.08 16:18:00 - [15] - Quote Sgt S-Laughter wrote: There are only two game modes out, so I don't want to cast any major dramatic vote or anything... But so far this game seems to be lacking in the objective nature... Ambush - Everyone randomly spawns everywhere. No structure to the spawning unless it uses a skirmish map. Straight kdr fest, so this isn't exactly a bad thing, and the name "ambush" implies a certain amount of randomness to the match. All in all, for a base kdr mode, I think this one is okay. Skirmish - Each team has a base spawn. These are pretty removed from the battle though, and the battle it's self overwhelms them. Often I see the map reversed as to which team is controlling which objectives. I think a major contributor to this is the concept that every objective letter is also a spawn point... This means everyone is spawning everywhere... There is little feeling of zone control. When I play this mode I get super paranoid that everywhere I turn there is going to be someone, and when I go to hack an objective I often have an enemy spawn beside me before I've completed the hack. I feel this takes away from the objective feel. Capturing 1 objective usually means another is traded, and rather than turning into any strategic warfare it devolves into a core run n gun squad basically playing round robin on the objectives clearing them all in turn. It just doesn't feel like an objective game. It feels more like a multi point king of the hill. Might as well play CoD if that's all we're gonna get... I'm looking forward to their next game mode, but really they had better have at least 2-3 more planned... MAG had 5 game modes. Suppression was a basic kdr match, each team spawned on opposing sides of the match making it feel much more like a team defense / attack shooter rather than a random spawn kdr fest ala CoD. When you spawned you'd always see your team mates with you, and even though you couldn't chat with those blue dots, they were there, and you saw it. Sabotage featured a multi point capture quest, there was A and B objectives, which the attacking team had to capture both of to unlock C objective. Capture C objective for 30 seconds and the attackers win. Defenders had to stop this, obviously. Acquisition had a large base for the defense and within it were 2 vehicles. The attackers had to break through the defenses and get these two vehicles out in tact. There were more, but I think this illustrates my point. I know that EVE is not MAG, and DUST certainly won't be. I'm not asking for DUST to be MAG. I'm bringing these up because these all felt like team v team objective based warfare, not random spawn kda fests. When you spawned you'd see your team with you. Attacking team had a set of goals that made them the attacking team, defense was there to defend and stop them. In DUST it doesn't really make a difference who is O or D because they both have the exact same goals. The structure, especially with every letter being a spawn is also blown out. You can easily spawn with no allies in sight, you could even spawn amongst enemies. This blows the entire team warfare feeling out the window. When I play DUST I always feel like I'm fighting alone, and I feel there are no rewards for taking an objective, it will just be lost in a minute. It's all one big round robin clusterfsk. My suggestions to fix skirmish: remove spawning from letters. Add another clone point if you think it will help, but in general have the players spawn from their core spawn, or from remote spawn drops and drop ships. This alone will clean up a lot of the chaos that I feel holds this game back. It adds some predictability for where opponents will be coming from, and allows you to spawn with your own allies more frequently. It also enhances the importance of remote spawn points and nanite injectors in loadouts. ***************** Disclaimer -> I firmly believe these changes will not prevent any ninja like shenanigans. In mag each game mode could be won through deceptive tactics that were well beyond the measure of kdr. This is what defines true objective game play. Killing did not it's self win a game. It was definitely the most direct and generally effective route, but the fact that you could pull victories in SPITE of team kdr proves the game truly is objective based. ***************** another thing -> turn mics ON be default, and add proxy chat. Really takes a genius to get these wrong <_< Ive also noticed that one team gets the advantage by their MCC being a lot closer to the null cannons like A and C in certain maps allowing them to control the city and installations first. Rather unfair is it not?
MR ExPresident ZionTCD Legacy Rising 64	Posted - 2013.02.08 16:21:00 - [16] - Quote One of the problems with public matches is people think they have to control every single point in Skirmish, spreading their team thin and allowing cracks for people to hack other objectives. In a 5 point map its perfectly acceptable to control 3 out of the 5 and win via attrition. Might take bit longer but it is a valid strategy. Once bigger matches are allowed to happen and corporations can field full teams I think you'll see more of this. The biggest point being what others have already said. Other game modes have existed but removed for whatever reason CCP had, which was probably to test other stuff.
Sobriety Denied Universal Allies Inc. 432	Posted - 2013.02.08 16:27:00 - [17] - Quote 16 players is not enough for a 5 point map.. thats why skirmish sux.. of course it's not going to feel strategic without enough max players.
crazy space 1 ZionTCD Legacy Rising 879	Posted - 2013.02.08 16:55:00 - [18] - Quote dust is a sandbox shooter with giant open world maps to play in 64v 64 maps and maps so big you need fighter jets and dropships to get across them. You can build installations on the map. You need to make sure you have buildings that are mining minerals and gas needed to power higher tier buildings, turrets, defence relays, drone factories. Matches last 2 hours, and anything is possible. Multiple buildings and dozens of capture points on one of kind persistent maps is what makes dust different.
Disturbingly Bored Universal Allies Inc. 92	Posted - 2013.02.08 18:27:00 - [19] - Quote Sgt S-Laughter wrote: Capturing 1 objective usually means another is traded, and rather than turning into any strategic warfare it devolves into a core run n gun squad basically playing round robin on the objectives clearing them all in turn. When this happens, it's because of a lack of cohesive strategy. On a good team you'll have people sit and defend points while others go out to capture the next. Granted, that means it's how most pub matches play out. But a well-matched corp battle feels very strategic to me. [ED: You're SVER, I just saw, so very likely none of that is news to you.] Not that I'd mind having more game modes at all, more the merrier. I'm still waiting for the Drone fights that the intro video promises... (The models are made already CCP and you know it, drop it in!)
mikegunnz Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz RISE of LEGION 425	Posted - 2013.02.08 18:59:00 - [20] - Quote SYN BLACK XS wrote: Luk Manag wrote: Matobar wrote: ChromeBreaker wrote: BETA. More will come... QFT There are other modes from early BETA. The Beta includes what CCP wants it to, chances are these are just the few they need help refining, or are the best gametypes to help them find/fix bugs Actually, CCP themselves stated that they took skirmish 1.0 offline because it was heavily biased towards the defender. Instead of finding a way to balance it a bit... they just scrapped it. (All it really needed, was for the MCC shields/armor to be reset after attacker took the first stage of the map)

Iron Wolf Saber BetaMax. 2867	Posted - 2013.02.08 19:00:00 - [21] - Quote Throw a team into any current game mode and you see one hell of a difference in difficulty.
Sgt S-Laughter SVER True Blood Unclaimed. 22	Posted - 2013.02.08 20:16:00 - [22] - Quote I'm definitely looking forward to more game modes, and higher player counts per battle. As it is DUST definitely has the ambition to be a great game and I'm looking forward to clocking many hours on the battlefields. This is just my feedback right now. I hope ccp continues to tweak and monitor the different elements in the game. Of everything the game features, this is the one I feel is most important. If weapons are imbalanced, everyone will simply shift meta. If vehicles are imbalanced, enough people will call them in. I fully trust that no matter what the balance is players will adapt to every advantage available. When it comes to core game design, functionality of weapon and vehicles, flow of game play, these are what concern me. A full drafted team v team match is obviously going to have more tactics then a pub match. This happens naturally, in spite of the game design. I do not believe it is actually that far fetch to tweak the design model until the pub matches also have a symbolance of general strategy about them either. The biggest thing I have my eye on in DUST is the next game mode. See ya'll on the battlefield.
Chinduko KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 19	Posted - 2013.02.08 23:20:00 - [23] - Quote I agree with the multi-king of the hill comparison. I miss the first build's version of Skirmish. I think it required too much teamwork for most players so it wasn't extremely popular. I'm ready for real objective style game mode. But with higher player counts, the problem is with player requirements too high, it can make games harder to get into as time goes on. It happened to MAG's gamemodes. Very long waits for the high player count game modes for all MAG game modes except 32v32 modes. I think Dust should stop at 32v32.
Volgair Tritan-Industries Legacy Rising 200	Posted - 2013.02.09 00:39:00 - [24] - Quote right now? Not as much as it should be... We'll see in time.
G Torq ALTA B2O 88	Posted - 2013.02.09 09:14:00 - [25] - Quote Sgt S-Laughter wrote: Skirmish - Capturing 1 objective usually means another is traded, and rather than turning into any strategic warfare it devolves into a core run n gun squad basically playing round robin on the objectives clearing them all in turn. I have noticed this alot, especially in 4 and 5 point maps (mostly Line Harvest). In some matches, have tried to play cap-and-hold (i.e. defend the point, dont run to the next one), and you quickly find that half the nipple-necks gets bored and run off, and suddenly a red deathsquad shows up. (shooting blueberries in the back while they run off, might convince them there are enemies to kill, and get them to turn around..) Try, if you got a couple of people on, take an objective, and then hold it - defend it, throw down a couple of prox-mines, drop-links and ammo-hives defensively, and then wait for the onslaught. Not only is it pretty fun (even if getting run over), but if you manage to break whatever death-squad comes along, you're likely to find you win the match Note: In 4- and 5-point matches, you usually only need 3 points. Dont ever try to get #4, unless you're 100% sure you can get it without loosing dominance.
Heinz Doofenshertz BetaMax. 360	Posted - 2013.02.09 09:37:00 - [26] - Quote I have to agree with ya Torq, use your head :)
usrevenge2 Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 64	Posted - 2013.02.09 09:43:00 - [27] - Quote original skirmish was sorta like sabotage from mag, but when the 3rd objective opened it was 3 null cannon points that were real close together. it was kinda fun and kinda not at the same time but this was so early in the beta basic features didn't exist, it be fun to try it out now... Oh yea the map was pretty big too imo
iceyburnz Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 283	Posted - 2013.02.09 11:09:00 - [28] - Quote They really need a sticky thread with and FAQ attached with massive title letters that reads: BEFORE YOU ASK A SUPERFLUOUS QUESTION READ THIS. Oh and: its a beta.
Dan OfAnarchy One-Armed Bandits Orbital Rights 0	Posted - 2013.02.09 11:55:00 - [29] - Quote I highly agree with what the OP is saying. Right now Dust feels too much like Counter Strike or Call of Duty. I guess it would be a lot better if the random spawning wasn't that bad. Sometimes you'll spawn in the middle of enemies, you can't even turn 180-¦ before dying. Feeling paranoid as someone mentioned earlier, I get that a lot as well when playing Dust xD As some of you mentioned the whole team feeling vs pub matches: I used to play Battlefield 2 a LOT back then. It was my first fps that I really got the hang of and that I wanted to play online too. And even though I never joined any clan I had the team feeling in almost all matches. Squads would be formed and the commander would direct those along the map. The whole capture the flag just naturally felt really tactical. Well it's quite obvious since you can only spawn at either your flags or ath the squad leaders position. Even on huge maps it still felt like a team play, being an infantry squad getting chopper or jet support. After first getting into Dust it seems to be the only game that could match the great times I had with Battlefield or actually make it even greater (with all the DUST/EVE affecting each other - holy epicness). Well in my opinion anyways. I'm really hoping the developers use the Beta and the forum complaints to learn and deliver the best and most epic game possible! Dust definately has all the means to deliver. Really good job so far. Also I think you're doing really well as game developing company if the users have such high demands :D
S Park Finner BetaMax. 89	Posted - 2013.02.09 13:47:00 - [30] - Quote The issue, it seems to me, is that the "objective" in skirmish is a team level objective: get control of the majority of null cannons and hold them with minimum losses so you don't loose on clones. In a PUG that means you can almost never achieve it because the players are not motivated (they have more fun running and gunning / chasing down the last guy that shot them, ...) or have no command and control structures (even if they wanted to play as a team there is no coordination) or just don't know what the real goals are. All the comments on how organized teams play differently emphasize those issues. The success of the "death squads" or (sometimes) full team roaming mobs are what you get when players are partly organized or clued in to a workable tactic in the current skirmish setup. The "king of the hill" mode strips away the objective confusion but at the price of a much simpler game. The earlier Battlefield style mode -- capture the first set of objectives / expand the map / capture the next set of objectives -- is a way to give direction to a series of more run-and-gun oriented play environments. Can we have a PUG mode that provides direction while catering to both single players and organized squads while supporting people's desires to sometimes just screw around? Perhaps one where the game set squad level goals and then gave such big bonuses to squads that achieved them that they made it worth while for the players to follow the directions would work. For example... "Squad one -- take objective A (squad members get a 250 SP bonus when it's taken) and then hold A (squad members get a 500 skill point bonus if the point is never recaptured and a 50% increase in all SP gained when enemies are in the area of A)" Anyone else have ideas for how to set up a that kind of game mode?



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