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Jathniel
G I A N T
39
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Posted - 2013.02.06 02:29:00 -
[1] - Quote
After playing this game for several months as a mostly dedicated sniper, I'd like to drop some feedback.
All things considered, I believe I can sum up all complaints and ideas about sniping in Dust into one sentence:
"Sniper rifles require more variety of operation."
There's nothing I can cite or complain about, that this one obvious point does not encompass.
But for those that require an explanation, I provide the following:
There are two (2) major gaps in the weapon checklist for sniper rifles.
1. The gap between assault rifles and sniper rifles.
2. The gap between sniper rifles and forge guns.
Assault Rifles CAN snipe.
Sniper Rifles can't assault.
This can be fixed with a mid-range light sniper rifle, with low sway, enabling a sniper to give his squad Rifleman support.
Forge Guns too, CAN snipe.
Sniper Rifles cannot face vehicles.
This can be fixed with a slow, heavy sniper rifle that I presented before, enabling a sniper to give moderate anti-material support.
To compensate, I've been going for high ground... very high ground... like, *you-need-a-dropship-to-reach-me* high ground. This has worked well for me, and enhances my ability to support squad mates on the ground.
On one particular map however, just getting on to a tower to provide this support costs me a dropship.. every match. Then when I'm up there, opponents try to approach my position with their own dropship to displace me. This requires me to call down a tank, so I can destroy them before they reach.
Sometimes, (if i'm lucky) the game will glitch, and mysteriously hurl me and my tank OFF of the tower, at least another 200 meters into the air.
This isn't just my problem. I played with and saw a skilled sniper in a well-known and respected corp during a skirmish match have to jump off his perch, after getting snuck up on. Then just to fight his way out of a situation, run to a supply depot, switch to an AR, die a bunch of times in his scout suit to help save an objective, then try to get back to his perch to snipe.... near the end of the match.
SO HERE IS THE PROBLEM:
I lose a dropship AND a tank MINIMUM... not to enemy players, but simply just to get INTO position to provide efficient sniping, and KEEP my position. Simply to play... The other sniper had to switch to an AR, something he probably doesn't have skill points in, just to keep himself alive. HE may not complain, so I am complaining for him.
Why is sniping like pulling teeth? Answer: because snipers don't have the weapons within their operation class to adapt to changing situations..
If i had an efficient mid-range sniper rifle, with heavily reduced sway, I would run with my mates on the ground and cover their flank, I wouldn't need to pull teeth to get high ground.
If the other notable sniper had an efficient mid-range rifle, he could swap to it, and use that to help defend an objective instead of pull his teeth swapping to a fitting outside of his class, every time he died.
Snipers need a low-sway, mid-range rifle, and something that can dent an LAV or dropship.
A light sniper rifle for the gap between AR and Sniper Rifle.
A heavy sniper rifle for the gap between Sniper Rifle and Forge Gun. |
Fivetimes Infinity
Immobile Infantry
1086
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Posted - 2013.02.06 02:45:00 -
[2] - Quote
Sniper rifles is a single class of weaponry, so insisting there's a "need" for the ability to kill infantry at close ranges, and also to be able to damage vehicles with this one group of weapons, is probably pushing it. ARs have variety, but they all fall within the same basic parameters, with just their characteristics like ROF, accuracy, and so on being slightly different. A breach AR really isn't tremendously different from a regular AR in what you would be capable of doing with it, however.
Variation to sniper rifles is fine. The races should probably have their particular sniper rifle versions. But adding the ability to do essentially anything with this one weapon group would be pretty unprecedented. If CCP wants to add some kind of weapon that's similar to a forge gun but weaker, being sort of an anti-material gun of sorts, they should add a new skill for it and call it something other than a sniper rifle. Even adding a low sway, mid-range rifle should be a new skill and a new weapon type (I think this is what scrambler rifles are intended to be, by the way).
Anything that deviates significantly from a 600m, anti-infantry gun should be classified as some new weapon type and not simply folded into sniper rifles. Regular sniper rifles, charge rifles, tactical rifles. That's sufficient. Add race variations and weapon mods, and you're done. All the rest should be new categories of gun entirely. |
Professormohawk
Stasis Military Support
22
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Posted - 2013.02.06 05:20:00 -
[3] - Quote
a M39 EMR like gun i like. i can snipe with and do some CQC with it. and put like a 4x sight on it. i hate using the default scope in close. i
as for anit material, make a large sniper rifle, a future Barret 50 cal. maybe base it off of the blaster weapon. hey that could work |
Jathniel
G I A N T
39
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Posted - 2013.02.06 05:48:00 -
[4] - Quote
Why is my request pushing it? ARs and Forges kill infantry and damage vehicles all in the same gun AND they can SNIPE (imho THAT'S pushing it). I'm just asking for variants within the sniper class.
First, they take ladders away. That reduced the number of sniper perches dramatically, and that's why you see some snipers crouching in the middle of the street (poor things). Or you oh so conveniently, happen to stumble upon an unsuspecting sniper crouched at a corner.
Then, they tighten the red zones. A former guild mate of mine said, "I personally like the new red zone, no one is too far away to hit." They are SNIPERS. They are *supposed* to be too far away for you to hit. YOU are supposed to go out of YOUR way to get THEM.
Finally, we get the global damage nerf. Now snipers got tactical rifles that barely hit much harder than breach pistols!
All that considered, I figure adding sniper rifle variants to meet the need would help compensate for this, and you say everything is "sufficient"? Are you a sniper? Adapting to unfair circumstances, doesn't stop the circumstances from being unfair.
"Due to the surprise nature of sniper fire, high lethality of aimed shots and frustration at the inability to locate and attack snipers, sniper tactics have a significant effect on morale. Extensive use of sniper tactics can be used as a psychological strategy in order to induce constant stress in opposing forces." (pulled from wiki. citation needed)
In order to pull this off effectively, I am sacrificing a dropship, and sometimes a tank, in almost every match. That's a problem.
On the other hand, you have other snipers that aren't inflicting the fear and stress that they should. Instead they are running around in ambush matches getting hunted, crouching in the middle of the street, or sniping from perches well-within AR range, and nearly every perch is within AR range.
And you say that's "sufficient"?
I see a bias with the game balancing here.
Another quote from wiki:
"Snipers are less likely to be treated mercifully if captured by the enemy.[44] The rationale for this is that ordinary soldiers shoot at each other at 'equal opportunity' whilst snipers take their time in tracking and killing individual targets in a methodical fashion with a relatively low risk of retaliation."
If people want gameplay to be totally unfavorable for sniping, why not spare yourself the headache and just get rid of us? I'll just pick up another class. lol |
Paran Tadec
Imperfects
Negative-Feedback
902
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Posted - 2013.02.06 05:55:00 -
[5] - Quote
Maybe after they inject the need for skill to use snipers ie some ballistics. |
Sleepy Zan
Internal Error.
Negative-Feedback
2048
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Posted - 2013.02.06 07:56:00 -
[6] - Quote
Jathniel wrote:Assault Rifles CAN snipe.
Sniper Rifles can't assault.
This can be fixed with a mid-range light sniper rifle, with low sway, enabling a sniper to give his squad Rifleman support. This is already possible, it just requires a bit of practice. There should not be a sniper specifically designed for mid range that would lead to bad things. You may be in luck though the scrambler rifle might be for you.
Jathniel wrote:Forge Guns too, CAN snipe.
Sniper Rifles cannot face vehicles.
This can be fixed with a slow, heavy sniper rifle that I presented before, enabling a sniper to give moderate anti-material support.
I'm still working on this one. I have always liked the idea of a single shot heavy anti material sniper that was meant for more of a vehicle area of denial weapon. Only problem is that it could easily be a down right LAV and Dropship killer. |
Fivetimes Infinity
Immobile Infantry
1086
|
Posted - 2013.02.06 08:01:00 -
[7] - Quote
Jathniel wrote:Why is my request pushing it? ARs and Forges kill infantry and damage vehicles all in the same gun AND they can SNIPE (imho THAT'S pushing it). I'm just asking for variants within the sniper class.
ARs are not seriously anti-vehicle weapons. You'll run out of ammo before you even get close to killing a LAV with an AR.
Forge guns can kill infantry, but it's a lot harder to do. Personally I don't think forge guns ought to be able to just one-shot infantry at all, for the same reason that swarm launchers were nerfed with respect to their anti-infantry ability more than half a year ago.
Your request doesn't make sense with how Dust works currently. All variations of weapons are, as I said, within the same area of operation. Sniper rifles do have variants, in the charge and tactical rifles. But they're all long-range infantry killers. Same deal for every other weapon. All ARs are short/mid-range infantry killers, etc etc. If you want a mid-range semi-auto rifle, I think that's the plan for the scrambler rifle. If you want a long-range anti-armor gun, that could be another class of weaponry. Folding all of this varied capability into a single weapon type, however, would be contrary to how the rest of the game works. |
Jathniel
G I A N T
39
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Posted - 2013.02.06 22:31:00 -
[8] - Quote
Okay. I clearly put the wrong letters in bold. I apologize for this misarticulation.
The point I was trying to make, is that excellent snipers have to go through unreasonably strenuous lengths to be competitive with their sniping.
They have good gun-game, like the sniper I mentioned earlier. But they are supposed to snipe. They are supposed to have others at a disadvantage, and serve as a force multiplier for their squad mates.
The fact remains, the sniper I speak of was forced out of his element, to do gameplay that is not in a sniper's description. He shouldn't have had to deal with that.
I personally refuse to deal with it, and I end up needing to go through extreme lengths to avoid this.
The scenarios i mentioned are examples.
And since so many negatives have come to snipers. I figured that the only way to overcome this, is to produce some variants for the sniper rifles. Yes, they ARE unreasonable variants, that 'dont make sense with how Dust currently works'.
But the concept of creating a weapon class capable of operating at 600m, then doing everything in your power to punish, penalize, and restrict people that use it, is unreasonable as well.
Seems like you're better off integrating ARs, and Snipers into the same Rifle operation skill... |
trollsroyce
Seraphim Initiative.
CRONOS.
165
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Posted - 2013.02.07 00:09:00 -
[9] - Quote
The problem snipers face is being able to contribute consistently. A frontline soldier is always contributing, whereas a sniper's worth is dependant on the map and enemy positions. Skim junction, and manus peak are the maps where snipers can be relied upon to detriment the enemy (skim junction low rise version, that is).
On other maps, close range weapons are much more reliable to matter.
This is the only issue with sniping to me. Perhaps this could be addressed by weapon differentiation? A hip firing sniper rifle could be interesting. Possibly with breach scrambler pistol functionality (4x headshot multiplier, lower base damage) and lowered optimal range of 300m. The hip sniper rifle would allow for an alpha build dropsuit, while only knocking out enemies with a headshot. For balance issues, a clip of 5 and taking some 3-4 shots to kill assaults would go a long way.
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Ten-Sidhe
Osmon Surveillance
Caldari State
414
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Posted - 2013.02.07 00:26:00 -
[10] - Quote
The m39 is a DMR, not a sniper rifle. The coming scrambler and gauss rifles may fill this role, between a sniper and an ar.
Other rifle types, like payload(small accurate grenade, size/range similar to .50 barret), anti-material(.50 barret for example), anti-tank rifle(not used anymore irl since tank armour grow to thick) and stopping rifles(.950 jdj for example, used to stop charging big game like rhino/elephant at close range) would be nice. Not sure if they would fall into sniper category or a new one though. |
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usrevenge2
Subdreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
64
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Posted - 2013.02.07 02:49:00 -
[11] - Quote
Paran Tadec wrote:Maybe after they inject the need for skill to use snipers ie some ballistics.
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Ten-Sidhe
Osmon Surveillance
Caldari State
414
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Posted - 2013.02.07 11:30:00 -
[12] - Quote
Bullet travel time would be nice. The bullet drop at the speed of rail projectile would be less the the dispersion of a real rifle.
For example, m39 will put 5 shots in 4.5" square at 300 yards, drop at muzzle velocity of dust sniper rifle would be 2.75" at that range. Travel time to moving target would be much more significant, over 16" lead needed at that range for a walking assault suit.
The Minmatar sniper rifle will hopefully use a normal bullet speed and arc, maybe could be balanced vs caldari sniper by making it not leave a contrail the way current one does. So it would take more skill to hit target, but be easier to hide location of perch. About 1/3 the muzzle speed would mean about 9 times the drop and 3 times the lead at same range.
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