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Hunter Junko WARRIORS 1NC 45	Posted - 2013.01.27 00:11:00 - [1] - Quote Here's a possible idea to motivate players to abandon their Milita fits; make all the starter fits BPCs, at least 50-100 each. By then you'd have enough SP and ISK to afford STD fittings.however, if you delete a fitting or you run out, thats it, no more fittings.at least you'd have at least a taste of what you want to be. any opinions? good idea or bad idea? Safe Hunting
Patoman Radiant ZionTCD Legacy Rising 53	Posted - 2013.01.27 02:41:00 - [2] - Quote I think millita BPO is good in that it allows the dirt poor or cheep to go free forever. Many games turn into a massacre especially with ******** spawning at a camped spawn point,so a way of playing with limited risk is always good. But. it is just as good as the tech one stuff that you need to actually skill into AND pay for. I am a avid user of millita gear being I run cheep fits, and will keep using them as much as possible, instead of tech 1 because it is literally free. Only paying for weapons that I can't get a BPO for when I feel like (actually started liking militia shot gun over mass driver that I pay isk for) A way to allow people to keep using it for whatever reason, and be encouraged to actually use tech 1 or better is have tech 1 be 110% more effective or reduce the effectiveness of militia across the board to 90% of tech 1, suit HP, weapon damage, mod effectiveness, etc. If this change is done, I might actually consider using tech 1 weapons mods and suits, and others would follow suit.
Y0UR NAME HERE Imperfects Negative-Feedback 445	Posted - 2013.01.27 03:10:00 - [3] - Quote Patoman Radiant wrote: I think millita BPO is good in that it allows the dirt poor or cheep to go free forever. Many games turn into a massacre especially with ******** spawning at a camped spawn point,so a way of playing with limited risk is always good. But. it is just as good as the tech one stuff that you need to actually skill into AND pay for. I am a avid user of millita gear being I run cheep fits, and will keep using them as much as possible, instead of tech 1 because it is literally free. Only paying for weapons that I can't get a BPO for when I feel like (actually started liking militia shot gun over mass driver that I pay isk for) A way to allow people to keep using it for whatever reason, and be encouraged to actually use tech 1 or better is have tech 1 be 110% more effective or reduce the effectiveness of militia across the board to 90% of tech 1, suit HP, weapon damage, mod effectiveness, etc. If this change is done, I might actually consider using tech 1 weapons mods and suits, and others would follow suit. But, tech 1 stuff is so cheap 1 game will easily cover your isk loss and then some. +1 to OP, its a pretty cool idea, no elimination of militia gear, just a limited amount which would be plenty for your initial isk and sp build as well as knowing what you want to put that sp into.
Patoman Radiant ZionTCD Legacy Rising 53	Posted - 2013.01.27 04:39:00 - [4] - Quote Y0UR NAME HERE wrote: Patoman Radiant wrote: I think millita BPO is good in that it allows the dirt poor or cheep to go free forever. Many games turn into a massacre especially with ******** spawning at a camped spawn point,so a way of playing with limited risk is always good. But. it is just as good as the tech one stuff that you need to actually skill into AND pay for. I am a avid user of millita gear being I run cheep fits, and will keep using them as much as possible, instead of tech 1 because it is literally free. Only paying for weapons that I can't get a BPO for when I feel like (actually started liking militia shot gun over mass driver that I pay isk for) A way to allow people to keep using it for whatever reason, and be encouraged to actually use tech 1 or better is have tech 1 be 110% more effective or reduce the effectiveness of militia across the board to 90% of tech 1, suit HP, weapon damage, mod effectiveness, etc. If this change is done, I might actually consider using tech 1 weapons mods and suits, and others would follow suit. But, tech 1 stuff is so cheap 1 game will easily cover your isk loss and then some. +1 to OP, its a pretty cool idea, no elimination of militia gear, just a limited amount which would be plenty for your initial isk and sp build as well as knowing what you want to put that sp into. but that is the point, tech one suit fits should be covered regardless for the most part, being that those are the real fits that have a measure of realism that don't come out of thin air. and having that just as good as millita is messed up, I look through stats and millita is just as good as tech 1, by having a actual difference gives a incentive to not use millita gear (and not the current situation where only thing I buy is some guns that I can't get millita BPO for)
Y0UR NAME HERE Imperfects Negative-Feedback 445	Posted - 2013.01.27 04:54:00 - [5] - Quote Patoman Radiant wrote: Y0UR NAME HERE wrote: Patoman Radiant wrote: I think millita BPO is good in that it allows the dirt poor or cheep to go free forever. Many games turn into a massacre especially with ******** spawning at a camped spawn point,so a way of playing with limited risk is always good. But. it is just as good as the tech one stuff that you need to actually skill into AND pay for. I am a avid user of millita gear being I run cheep fits, and will keep using them as much as possible, instead of tech 1 because it is literally free. Only paying for weapons that I can't get a BPO for when I feel like (actually started liking militia shot gun over mass driver that I pay isk for) A way to allow people to keep using it for whatever reason, and be encouraged to actually use tech 1 or better is have tech 1 be 110% more effective or reduce the effectiveness of militia across the board to 90% of tech 1, suit HP, weapon damage, mod effectiveness, etc. If this change is done, I might actually consider using tech 1 weapons mods and suits, and others would follow suit. But, tech 1 stuff is so cheap 1 game will easily cover your isk loss and then some. +1 to OP, its a pretty cool idea, no elimination of militia gear, just a limited amount which would be plenty for your initial isk and sp build as well as knowing what you want to put that sp into. but that is the point, tech one suit fits should be covered regardless for the most part, being that those are the real fits that have a measure of realism that don't come out of thin air. and having that just as good as millita is messed up, I look through stats and millita is just as good as tech 1, by having a actual difference gives a incentive to not use millita gear (and not the current situation where only thing I buy is some guns that I can't get millita BPO for) Bro I've been preaching this for awhile now and am always shot down, I fully agree and its wrong to do it the way its being done.
Kaathe Osmon Surveillance Caldari State 41	Posted - 2013.01.27 06:09:00 - [6] - Quote it's called a starter fit for a reason. if you take out the only starting point for any one, this game will crash quickly and painfully. i can see where you want to help shead light on how good standard tier dropsuits and weapons are, and help people get the best out of the game. however, putting limits on a sandbox game complete defeats the purpose of a sandbox game. taking out options for different play styles and fittings and options does not seem like a good way to help influence others to choose something else. you have the freedom choose how you want to play and fight in a sandbox game; if people want to play cheap and cost effective fittings, then good for them. if they want to be the best upgraded solider on the field by god go for it.
Y0UR NAME HERE Imperfects Negative-Feedback 445	Posted - 2013.01.27 06:13:00 - [7] - Quote Kaathe wrote: it's called a starter fit for a reason. if you take out the only starting point for any one, this game will crash quickly and painfully. i can see where you want to help shead light on how good standard tier dropsuits and weapons are, and help people get the best out of the game. however, putting limits on a sandbox game complete defeats the purpose of a sandbox game. taking out options for different play styles and fittings and options does not seem like a good way to help influence others to choose something else. you have the freedom choose how you want to play and fight in a sandbox game; if people want to play cheap and cost effective fittings, then good for them. if they want to be the best upgraded solider on the field by god go for it. Did you miss everyone's posts cuz it looks like it, the OP stated that starter fits would exist for a period of time. Like he said 50-100 of each type. After that you can be a big boy\girl and put sp into something and start spending isk. In no way shape or form should you be running out of isk either. So I don't see the problem with this idea, in fact its a great idea.
Breakin Stuff Immobile Infantry 680	Posted - 2013.01.27 06:17:00 - [8] - Quote CCP has stated that they have no intention of eliminating freefits or AUR BPOS. they are intended to give nomoney poor people a pay to fight if someone like me vapes all their expensive stuff. Any game where your character can lose enough ISK that they cannot buy any fits period (potentially) is bad game design.
Breakin Stuff Immobile Infantry 680	Posted - 2013.01.27 06:19:00 - [9] - Quote Oh and it keeps morons out of local begging for ISK because someone hacked their account and stole all their weapons, arms and armor and ISK. They have freefits they can get ISKies with.
Hunter Junko WARRIORS 1NC 45	Posted - 2013.01.27 06:24:00 - [10] - Quote Kaathe wrote: it's called a starter fit for a reason. and a starter fit's prime goal is to get you started on your feet. Now i can understand, sandbox is a sandbox. when the starter fittings are gone, they can still have the fitting they wish, but should pay a little ISK for it (dont forget, milita suits and weapons are DIRT CHEAP). lets also not forget the unique fitting you get based on your choices, those i know we can cope with. now the players who can make it with militia fittings, thats ok with you, thats alright with me, so long as you can do your job. But there has to be a limit on how long the game has to hold your hand all the time. little off topic: when i made the OP, i tended to think of it as a mother and a child , the mother wants the child to basically" Go nuts, whatever you wish to do, i'll be fine with it" and support her child. the child is inexperienced in the world and thus has to be supported in every which way. but when the child reaches a point when he or she can become responsible with their actions, the mother will still be ok with what you wish to do, but will not support you as much as she did before.

Y0UR NAME HERE Imperfects Negative-Feedback 445	Posted - 2013.01.27 06:26:00 - [11] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Oh and it keeps morons out of local begging for ISK because someone hacked their account and stole all their weapons, arms and armor and ISK. They have freefits they can get ISKies with. Hehe true, but they should be just that, last resort to make enough isk for a fit worth a damn. I'm not in game so someone tell me the AR damage difference between the militia AR and the proto AR duvolle. Curious.
Red Dot 24601-HA S.e.V.e.N. 36	Posted - 2013.01.27 06:28:00 - [12] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: CCP has stated that they have no intention of eliminating freefits or AUR BPOS. they are intended to give nomoney poor people a pay to fight if someone like me vapes all their expensive stuff. Any game where your character can lose enough ISK that they cannot buy any fits period (potentially) is bad game design. ...or just bad money management... I can see the need to eliminate the starter gear after a period of time or so many uses. But right now I can run a type II Assualt fit and lose around 40,000 isk on every death and I have yet to see a benefit from it. Why bother bringing it in if I dont see a difference? At 40,000 a death it only takes 5 respawns to be in the hole for the match. I have my skin weaves so I use them primarily but the new players don't. They need something too.
Breakin Stuff Immobile Infantry 680	Posted - 2013.01.27 06:36:00 - [13] - Quote I use type 1 armor with type 3 modules, soon to update to type 3 armor. I have seen a MASIVE boost in my efficiency as a result. Everyone here's great at listening to the spreadsheet crafters and theorycrafters. take the fits out for a spin and light things up and see for yourself if the fits work for you Example: The standard heavies work for me. the shieldfit type II not so much. Why? i have no idea and assume I am a weirdo. but I get higher KD/R in a type 1 than a Type II. looking forward to the level 3 and Vk.0 Oh and I love my 100k+ IK fits. They go on 100k+ rampages. It's glorious.
Y0UR NAME HERE Imperfects Negative-Feedback 445	Posted - 2013.01.27 06:45:00 - [14] - Quote With bad isk management being the poor person problem lol let me lay out what works for me I have 15 viziam fit type II assaults 30 type II ELM 30 type II mass driver I have 5 mill still sitting in my wallet, how? Because the viziam if I'm doing lasers is 1 spawn viziam per match, I should at least get 10 kills with it at over 100k per fit After death I switch to the ELM or Mass and finish out the game with usually 100k isk left over. The thing is depending on your kdr, you should have a few fits at varying prices, that way if a match is becoming to expensive you swap to the cheaper to salvage what isk you can. The prob is people will buy as many let's say viziam fits as they can, let's also say their kdr is trash. All they will do is keep spawning those fits until there is no isk left at all. Then complain they don't have enough isk. People who pay to play, that's fine your BPO costs $10, w/e I have more skills and more isk so please waste your monies, makes me happier when I pop you.
Breakin Stuff Immobile Infantry 680	Posted - 2013.01.27 07:00:00 - [15] - Quote Once again an Imperfect proves himself to be nothing more than an Epeen wanker with nothing relevant or valid to add to the conversation. And you wonder why the forums do not listen to a word that comes out your mouths when only like three of you aren't complete sh**posters or QQ post nerf whiners. When will you learn that you're irrelevant to 99.9% of us?
Y0UR NAME HERE Imperfects Negative-Feedback 445	Posted - 2013.01.27 07:06:00 - [16] - Quote How is that not relevant dumbass? I laid out exactly what you should do if you can't afford fits. I do it just the same imperfect or not who gives a **? If your doing bad, then read my post above. You should always have cheaper back up fits to keep the isk flow flowing. Only a dip would says blah blah ***** imperfect blah blah. Dude the cheaper back ups are a must, it makes sense. In eve I'll have say my 100mn tengu, well lost that 2 bill so now ima fly a talos around while I make up for the isk. Stop being a scrub and take good advice where you can get it.
Cross Atu Conspiratus Immortalis 775	Posted - 2013.01.27 07:08:00 - [17] - Quote Quote: Hello, Please use search forum function first for your issue. If there is no thread already, please post 1 feedback/suggestion = 1 thread, so we can easily track those. Making a list of feedback and suggestions may prove to be counter-productive as some important things may be overlooked. Thank you! Source: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=37174&find=unread Example of threads already started this week on the subject: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=52551 My first response from that thread. Cross Atu wrote: Reimus Klinsman wrote: Val'herik Dorn wrote: because CCP has to make money and the more people that buy that gear the more they make it is not an ideal situation but nonetheless the situation we find ourselves in. Something tells me they'll make more money from BPCs rather than BPOs. I think it took just 150 vanity dropsuits to amount to the same value of a BPO standard dropsuit. Besides, this game won't be much fun if CCP moved forward with BPOs and people are running full protogear at 0 cost. Keeping a few meta 1 BPOs (which people have already payed real life money for) in game is in no way indicative of, or equivalent too, there being prototype BPOs in game. Setting aside the non-trivial aspects of legal and/or PR implications implicit to altering such a fundamental aspect of goods/services provided after money has already changed hands let's observe it from a in game POV. There are no Meta 1 BPO fits in game. There are a few (three by my last count) Meta 1 BPO suits in game but a dropsuit does not a full fitting make. Someone who runs runs only BPO fittings is primarily using Militia gear which is, to put it mildly, sub optimal. In essence the "advantage" they are gaining is like taking a handicap in certain betting games. They'll play matches (which are reflected in their permanent character stats) at a disadvantage to increase their net rate of ISK gain (actual gains remain the same, but costs per match go down). When applied (as is the case now) only to low level gear this is far from imbalancing as all other things being equal the player with the weaker gear will lose every time (obviously player skill plays a huge role in this and someone with high enough player skill can overcome this challenge in certain contexts). In short low level BPOs allow a player to trade one kind of risk for another within a limited context (but only after they've spent real life cash to do so). Or, to quote CCP CCP Cmdr Wang wrote: At its core DUST 514 is all about risk. When you jump into battle and face off against the enemy, the confrontation becomes infinitely more real and engaging if you are putting something meaningful on the line; a victory becomes sweeter and the taste of defeat all the more bitter. Think of the feeling you get when you play poker for matchsticks versus the feeling you get when you play for cold, hard cash. That said, we realize that not all mercs will want to play for such high stakes in every match. As a way to address this need we introduced permanent Militia BPOs (Blue Print Original) to the game. These are intended as a relatively low-powered convenience option for players who either want to have that one fit thatGÇÖs always ready to go or those who want to play a few matches without the adrenalin rush provided by risking their pimped out Prototype or Officer fits. We feel strongly that this is a valid game choice, but one that should carry a price tag to reflect the great value it offers players who want to play that way. In setting that price tag we looked at the prices of all other items in the game relative to the value they offer and industry best practice for pricing permanent items in similar MMO shooter games. The individual item prices are shown below, and you should keep an eye out for some package deals we have in the pipeline. Item name Price (AUR) Militia Drop Uplink 9800 Militia Nanite Injector 9800 Militia Nanohive 9800 Militia Repair Tool 9800 Militia Armor Plates 4800 Militia Armor Repairer 4800 Militia CPU Upgrade 4800 Militia Cardiac Regulator 4800 Militia Cardiac Stimulant 4800 Militia Codebreaker 4800 Militia Kinetic Catalyzer 4800 Militia Light Damage Modifier 4800 Militia Myofibril Stimulant 4800 Militia PG Upgrade 4800 Militia Profile Dampener 4800 Militia Shield Extender 4800 Militia Shield Recharger 4800 Militia Shield Regulator 4800 Militia Sidearm Damage Modifier 4800 Militia 120mm Reinforced Armor Plates 4800 Militia 180mm Reinforced Armor Plates 4800 Militia 60mm Reinforced Armor Plates 4800 Militia Armor Repair Unit 4800 Militia CPU Enhancer 4800 Militia Heavy Armor Repair Unit 4800 Militia Heavy Damage Modifier 4800 Militia Heavy Shield Booster 4800 Militia Heavy Shield Extender 4800 Militia Power Diagnostic System 4800 Militia Powergrid Expansion 4800 Militia Shield Booster 4800 Militia Shield Regenerator 4800 Militia Shield Resistance Amplifier 4800 Militia Locus Grenade 9800 Militia Assault Rifle 11800 Militia Scrambler Pistol 11800 Militia Shotgun 11800 Militia Sniper Rifle 11800 Militia Submachine Gun 11800 'Raven' Assault Type-I 19800 'Valor' Scout Type-I 19800 'Sever' Logistics Type-I 19800 Note: The information in this post supersedes that in yesterdayGÇÖs post on militia BPO pricing; apologies for any confusion. https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=52363&find=unread 0.02 ISK Cross
Breakin Stuff Immobile Infantry 680	Posted - 2013.01.27 07:10:00 - [18] - Quote Edit: Mother F***er I cannot believe I have to eat this much crow. i tabbed over and responded to the wrong Effing post. You have my apologies. I also do the fit swapout, having an absolute cap for ISK i'll casually burn per match.
Cross Atu Conspiratus Immortalis 775	Posted - 2013.01.27 07:14:00 - [19] - Quote Second recent related thread: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=51630 and my first response from that thread Cross Atu wrote: Jason Pearson wrote: Pretty much title, remove the majority of the starter fits including the free LAV except the Frontline starter fit. Reasons for the majority of starter suits: They're simply not needed, we have a sniper fit which allows new players to just sit on the red line and camp without wasting a single bit of ISK/Aur or SP to actually use them. This is just as true of the Frontline starter as any of the others, the assumption that every player (or new player) is/should be an assault/frontline guy is fundamentally flawed. A team composed of only assault players will lose, frequently. The same can be said of a team composed of any other single role (witness what happens when most of a team decides to go sniper). The one notable exception to this trend is if the other team is primarily composed of the same single role. (Note: a game that monochromatic can't look forward to much longevity) Quote: I've sniped a few times and honestly see no reason to go waste cash on anything when I have this available. I've run assault, and feel pretty much the same about the assault gear. Of course I see it's value to dedicated assault players, but since I'm not one myself it's not worth it to me to invest in more. I'd hazard to say (based on the dedicated snipers I've talked to and played against) that they do find value in the better gear and make good use of it as well. The kill feed in matches supports this assessment. Quote: You then have the free Swarms and Forge Guns yet I see no free tanks or dropships? AV Players say that they're not strong enough to be useful so I'm pretty sure they'd support my arguement, right? You've missed the point of those fits. It's two fold, first is to give even starting players the at least some chance to fight back in a changing battlefield. While true that the starter fits aren't terribly effective they're still worlds better than being stuck with an assault rifle verses a tank. (Even a militia tank becomes nigh immortal when faced with only small arms fire). The second and perhaps more important aspect is to give players the chance to learn how to use those weapon types so that they can learn the general basics of using AV before taking the plunge of heavy ISK & SP investment to use the truly effective AV weapons. Reason for the LAV: Quote: The vehicle is ridiculous, I can run around and go 20+/0 because I was just running people over. I can use it for free to haul my heavy around and jump out with no issue as I gun people down. Removing this gives a reason not to have free AV but also provides Dropship Pilots/LAV Drivers with a transport use and lowers the possibility of you get ran over by newbs. Being run over is just like being spawn camped on at a single location. If it happens more than once you failed to adapt. In the case of a spawn camp, spawn elsewhere (unless you're camped in your redzone, which is something that just needs fixed). In the case of being run down just grab a free (or better) swarm launcher and fire (maybe) twice, let the tracking missiles do the heavy lifting. If you go 20-0 with a free LAV that's the sign of a team that needs more experience, play against someone with a bit of time spent in game and you'll be a smoking husk in short order D514 is already going to be pretty unforgiving to new players, making it even harder on noobs by taking away their starter fits is heading 180 degrees in the wrong direction. TL;DR for both posts. Read CCP Cmdr Wang's post, he is correct. Furthermore game health and player population are related metrix and there are a host of reasons why forcing new players to have no BPO ground floor to fall back on will weaken the game by damaging growth and retention. If someone is losing games/fights to players rocking only militia/starter gear then they need to improve their gun game/other player skills and that's on them not the development team.
Y0UR NAME HERE Imperfects Negative-Feedback 445	Posted - 2013.01.27 07:26:00 - [20] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Edit: Mother F***er I cannot believe I have to eat this much crow. i tabbed over and responded to the wrong Effing post. You have my apologies. I also do the fit swapout, having an absolute cap for ISK i'll casually burn per match. Apology accepted with a hug...Imperfect hater, totally racist.



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