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Drado Arona
Kirkinen Risk Control Caldari State
64
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Posted - 2013.01.26 22:26:00 -
[1] - Quote
So seeing as I must rewrite this due to some odd things about this forum, I'll try to express my argument once again. As the subject I've made, there is no true overpowered weapon. And I'd like to go in depth about some of the weapons I've experimented with during the limited time I've been on during the open beta.
Assault rifles are standard weapons in almost any FPS. It's got a very good range and is decent for almost any situation but not the best any any. It's got mediocre damage so you need to hit consistently to get kills. It has generous ammo reserves / magazine clips to help you keep hitting without the need to reload.
Laser rifles. Very good range but is easily out classed in CQC Godly damage to anything shield based (tanked) Great on slow targets but has difficulty with fast moving scouts.
Shotguns, Short range High damage to cover for it's short range Rapid fire (Militia shotgun at least)
Sniper rifles, Almost map wide range Deadly power with that range Don't need to be in the middle of the fight to actually get a shot at someone.
Grenades are grenades what else do you expect?
Those are some prime and easy to spot advantages about some of the more basic weapons. now to go onto some experiences with my builds.
My typical build as a logi suit, is a shotgun and his logi crap. There's been plenty of times where I needed to take cover because I couldn't hit with my shotgun because the guy had an AR. so I couldn't get to close without having to take the long way to dodge his bullets, but once I got into range where I could hit the AR stood no chance.
I've also walked into some pretty tight spaces where I have no room to run, and that's when I found out that the laser rifle will destroy something that can't dodge it's beam. Tight spaces, is where the weapon shines and will pretty much kill anything. It's strong, and has more range then most weapons and will kill anything that can't get out of the way. However if you somehow manage to get into CQC fighting with the LR almost any other weapon has the advantage.
And many a time have I taken cover to rep and reload when the next thing I know is that i'm dead because a sniper hit me from half the map away. However when sniping they can't see behind themselves so they're very easy to kill if you can find them.
So this leads me to believe that there's no true OP weapon, the real deciding factor (aside form SP) Is the environment you chose to fight in. A open spaced area with plenty of cover is great for shotguns. Closed spaces with little to no cover is great for ambushing people with the laser rifle, or fighting slow moving targets, like heavies / tanks. Assault rifle can do fairly well in any environment but is master at none. And sniper rifles support their team miles away from the combat.
Every weapon has a weakness and every weapon has a strength but the real deciding factor is how well you can abuse your strength and their weakness.
I kinda rushed this as a rewrite but I hope most of what I wrote made sense. And all of my writing is just based on my experiences during the open beta so input would be nice. |
Kay High
ZionTCD Legacy Rising
86
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Posted - 2013.01.26 22:30:00 -
[2] - Quote
edit your post now to show what you were trying to say |
Drado Arona
Kirkinen Risk Control Caldari State
64
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Posted - 2013.01.26 22:34:00 -
[3] - Quote
Kay High wrote:edit your post now to show what you were trying to say ahh can you tell me how to do that? (Edit the opening post) because editing the question I made won't work. |
Drado Arona
Kirkinen Risk Control Caldari State
64
|
Posted - 2013.01.26 22:48:00 -
[4] - Quote
Ah I'm sad... I worked hard on that post... oh well nother one down the gutters I suppose, sorry for wasting your time with a post that won't show up. |
Kay High
ZionTCD Legacy Rising
86
|
Posted - 2013.01.26 22:58:00 -
[5] - Quote
simple you edit your second post. However it might be more prudent to create a new Thread with your origonal Post (or close too it) we can see part of what you were writing by holding your mouse over the thread. |
Drado Arona
Kirkinen Risk Control Caldari State
64
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Posted - 2013.01.26 23:07:00 -
[6] - Quote
Kay High wrote:simple you edit your second post. However it might be more prudent to create a new Thread with your original Post (or close too it) we can see part of what you were writing by holding your mouse over the thread.
Yeah even so I didn't save the thing I wrote so that'd be another 30 mins of writing. If I were to give a rough estimate about how much I wrote it was around 8-10 paragraphs worth of my opinions and experiences with the weapons. All of which basically said, every weapon has an advantage and disadvantage, and the only way to counter that is by getting some friends together or to force enemies into your preferred zone of attacking. |
Kay High
ZionTCD Legacy Rising
86
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Posted - 2013.01.26 23:08:00 -
[7] - Quote
And I for one would like to read it. I know that people on this forum like to hear well thought out arguments even if they dont agree with them. |
Drado Arona
Kirkinen Risk Control Caldari State
64
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Posted - 2013.01.26 23:09:00 -
[8] - Quote
Kay High wrote:And I for one would like to read it. I know that people on this forum like to hear well thought out arguments even if they dont agree with them. Alright give me a few mins to rewrite it and I'll try to get it close to the point that it was originally. Sorry for the hassle. |
Reav Hannari
Red Rock Outriders Red Rock Consortium
296
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Posted - 2013.01.26 23:10:00 -
[9] - Quote
Drado Arona wrote:Kay High wrote:simple you edit your second post. However it might be more prudent to create a new Thread with your original Post (or close too it) we can see part of what you were writing by holding your mouse over the thread. Yeah even so I didn't save the thing I wrote so that'd be another 30 mins of writing. If I were to give a rough estimate about how much I wrote it was around 8-10 paragraphs worth of my opinions and experiences with the weapons. All of which basically said, every weapon has an advantage and disadvantage, and the only way to counter that is by getting some friends together or to force enemies into your preferred zone of attacking.
Best to write your long posts outside of the forums and paste in. They have a history of eating them.
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Drado Arona
Kirkinen Risk Control Caldari State
64
|
Posted - 2013.01.26 23:28:00 -
[10] - Quote
Reav Hannari wrote:Drado Arona wrote:Kay High wrote:simple you edit your second post. However it might be more prudent to create a new Thread with your original Post (or close too it) we can see part of what you were writing by holding your mouse over the thread. Yeah even so I didn't save the thing I wrote so that'd be another 30 mins of writing. If I were to give a rough estimate about how much I wrote it was around 8-10 paragraphs worth of my opinions and experiences with the weapons. All of which basically said, every weapon has an advantage and disadvantage, and the only way to counter that is by getting some friends together or to force enemies into your preferred zone of attacking. Best to write your long posts outside of the forums and paste in. They have a history of eating them.
Yeah, I learned that today, but I've finished my rewrite and I hope I can get some input / understanding that there's no real op weapon in this game. |
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Tgradrian
Tgrad Mercs
3
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Posted - 2013.01.26 23:33:00 -
[11] - Quote
You want to say that Dust weapons are indeed balanced? |
Drado Arona
Kirkinen Risk Control Caldari State
64
|
Posted - 2013.01.26 23:38:00 -
[12] - Quote
Tgradrian wrote:You want to say that Dust weapons are indeed balanced? Not the point i'm trying to make. Weapons in itself is MEANT to be imbalanced. But at the same time they're balanced because of flaws they all have.
AR's for example don't have enough dmg to outclass a shotgun in CQC. Nor does it have enough range to outcalss a Laser rifle in the range field of things.
And then you also have to question "Which type of environment will I be most effective in." for example, lasers are best in closed spaces with no cover. Shotguns are good at closed spaces with moderate to low cover. AR's are good in open spaces with cover, and Snipers are good in open fields with no cover.
at the same time you also have grenades to help support your weapons strengths / help eliminate it's weaknesses by closing in distance. |
Drado Arona
Kirkinen Risk Control Caldari State
64
|
Posted - 2013.01.27 00:07:00 -
[13] - Quote
No one wants to argue? Because i'm sure all of the people who haven't seen this thread will keep crying about getting owned by lasers. (yes yes I know it's not everyone) |
Cody Sietz
Tritan-Industries Legacy Rising
63
|
Posted - 2013.01.27 00:12:00 -
[14] - Quote
I can't argue with you, but I didnt see you list two weapons that people complain about the most.
Mass drivers.
HMGs.
Thise are the ones people get hot and bothered about (besides lasers...really not sure why lasers...) |
Tiel Syysch
Imperfects Negative-Feedback
634
|
Posted - 2013.01.27 00:13:00 -
[15] - Quote
I'll say what I said yesterday in IRC: Just because forge guns could kill dropships, it didn't make the missile turrets any less OP.
If you weren't here for the Small Missile Crisis of 2012: An item doesn't lose its OP status just because the person using it can be killed. |
Drado Arona
Kirkinen Risk Control Caldari State
64
|
Posted - 2013.01.27 00:17:00 -
[16] - Quote
Tiel Syysch wrote:I'll say what I said yesterday in IRC: Just because forge guns could kill dropships, it didn't make the missile turrets any less OP.
If you weren't here for the Small Missile Crisis of 2012: An item doesn't lose its OP status just because the person using it can be killed.
well can you explain the small missile crisis to me seeing as i'm new? And I agree that it doesn't lose it's op status because the person can be killed. But the only real weapon you could say is OP is a weapon that's pretty much insta kill regardless of range. |
Fivetimes Infinity
Immobile Infantry
1086
|
Posted - 2013.01.27 00:20:00 -
[17] - Quote
Things having pros and cons doesn't mean that the pros cannot possibly outweigh the cons. Imbalance doesn't imply something has no limitations, only that the limitations do not correspond to its strengths. There are overpowered weapons in the game. Lasers are probably one of them. Yes, they aren't so good up close, but at range they are a zero-recoil weapon with a huge magazine, excellent range, and the ability to drop multiple people in a matter of seconds should those people be in the open. In this case, they are unmatched weapons, and the fact that they aren't good up close is irrelevant, as nobody can survive long enough to get up close much of the time.
The real story with lasers is that people need to accept that there are still problems with Dust. It is better than Dust should be balanced, than for your favorite weapon to remain imbalanced, simply because you enjoy it being exceptionally powerful. Dust being a good, balanced, fun game to play is a bigger priority than your own personal interests being served. |
Tiel Syysch
Imperfects Negative-Feedback
634
|
Posted - 2013.01.27 00:23:00 -
[18] - Quote
Drado Arona wrote:Tiel Syysch wrote:I'll say what I said yesterday in IRC: Just because forge guns could kill dropships, it didn't make the missile turrets any less OP.
If you weren't here for the Small Missile Crisis of 2012: An item doesn't lose its OP status just because the person using it can be killed. well can you explain the small missile crisis to me seeing as i'm new? And I agree that it doesn't lose it's op status because the person can be killed. But the only real weapon you could say is OP is a weapon that's pretty much insta kill regardless of range.
Small missiles used to have infinite range and could get upwards of 500+ splash damage, oneshotting almost everyone on the field. They were the definition of an OP weapon. Nothing is that bad anymore, but it doesn't mean there shouldn't be any changes to the weapons we currently have. I don't think that just because a weapon has a counter means it's no longer allowed to be classified as OP. Some weapons have counters that I personally feel are unreasonable. |
Drado Arona
Kirkinen Risk Control Caldari State
64
|
Posted - 2013.01.27 00:26:00 -
[19] - Quote
Fivetimes Infinity wrote:Things having pros and cons doesn't mean that the pros cannot possibly outweigh the cons. Imbalance doesn't imply something has no limitations, only that the limitations do not correspond to its strengths. There are overpowered weapons in the game. Lasers are probably one of them. Yes, they aren't so good up close, but at range they are a zero-recoil weapon with a huge magazine, excellent range, and the ability to drop multiple people in a matter of seconds should those people be in the open. In this case, they are unmatched weapons, and the fact that they aren't good up close is irrelevant, as nobody can survive long enough to get up close much of the time.
The real story with lasers is that people need to accept that there are still problems with Dust. It is better than Dust should be balanced, than for your favorite weapon to remain imbalanced, simply because you enjoy it being exceptionally powerful. Dust being a good, balanced, fun game to play is a bigger priority than your own personal interests being served.
Hum... can lasers fire for an unlimited amount of time (of course running out of ammo being a case on it's own) |
Drado Arona
Kirkinen Risk Control Caldari State
64
|
Posted - 2013.01.27 00:27:00 -
[20] - Quote
Tiel Syysch wrote:Drado Arona wrote:Tiel Syysch wrote:I'll say what I said yesterday in IRC: Just because forge guns could kill dropships, it didn't make the missile turrets any less OP.
If you weren't here for the Small Missile Crisis of 2012: An item doesn't lose its OP status just because the person using it can be killed. well can you explain the small missile crisis to me seeing as i'm new? And I agree that it doesn't lose it's op status because the person can be killed. But the only real weapon you could say is OP is a weapon that's pretty much insta kill regardless of range. Small missiles used to have infinite range and could get upwards of 500+ splash damage, oneshotting almost everyone on the field. They were the definition of an OP weapon. Nothing is that bad anymore, but it doesn't mean there shouldn't be any changes to the weapons we currently have. I don't think that just because a weapon has a counter means it's no longer allowed to be classified as OP. Some weapons have counters that I personally feel are unreasonable.
What weapons would you say have unreasonable counters? |
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Sete Clifton
PSU GHOST SYNDICATE
67
|
Posted - 2013.01.27 00:30:00 -
[21] - Quote
I disagree with the OP. Not because I think anything is super overpowered and needs serious nerfing, but I disagree with the idea that all weapons right now are balanced and are equally usable (in different situations). Coming mostly from ARs, there are definitely certain variants that feel underdeveloped. What I mean is that each variant (full auto, burst, single shot, slow rate) are supposed to have their own "identity" and situational prowess, like the OP was talking about. That being said, they aren't currently balanced each well enough for that to be the case right now. I haven't tried many different types of weapons, but I'm willing to guess this isn't a problem unique to ARs. Basically, I agree we don't need nerfing, but we definitely need balancing. |
Drado Arona
Kirkinen Risk Control Caldari State
64
|
Posted - 2013.01.27 00:36:00 -
[22] - Quote
Sete Clifton wrote:I disagree with the OP. Not because I think anything is super overpowered and needs serious nerfing, but I disagree with the idea that all weapons right now are balanced and are equally usable (in different situations). Coming mostly from ARs, there are definitely certain variants that feel underdeveloped. What I mean is that each variant (full auto, burst, single shot, slow rate) are supposed to have their own "identity" and situational prowess, like the OP was talking about. That being said, they aren't currently balanced each well enough for that to be the case right now. I haven't tried many different types of weapons, but I'm willing to guess this isn't a problem unique to ARs. Basically, I agree we don't need nerfing, but we definitely need balancing.
well isn't that why it's still in the beta phase but in any case I'm still semi-new so I've still got a lot to experience so I suppose I'll refine my post some other day. |
Tiel Syysch
Imperfects Negative-Feedback
634
|
Posted - 2013.01.27 00:38:00 -
[23] - Quote
Drado Arona wrote:What weapons would you say have unreasonable counters?
Lasers, as Five said above. It's largely a product of their damage mechanics, in that their damage output is restricted by having to heat up, but they can heat up without ever touching anybody and then just glance that maximum damage onto someone. Sure, they're garbage up close, but closing the distance on one is impossible in the face of that damage output.
They're unreasonable to counter because you either have to out-range them with a sniper rifle, or you have to essentially start inside their range. Any good laser user is going to put a large enough open distance (such as having to climb a ladder or literally just flat ground) between themselves and any threat to where closing that gap becomes impossible unless you spawn on top of them. |
Don Von Hulio
UnReaL.
90
|
Posted - 2013.01.27 00:38:00 -
[24] - Quote
There is no OP weapon. Like ive said a billion times when i was in BF3. Just OP players.
Just finished a corp battle against P.R.O. (Planetary Response Organization i think) and basically they all ran heavy. Not trying to defame them, but if it was truly OP... they should've easily won. But they didn't win.
Chat was also glitching during the battle, probably for them too. And drop beacons weren't showing either. |
Sete Clifton
PSU GHOST SYNDICATE
67
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Posted - 2013.01.27 00:40:00 -
[25] - Quote
Drado Arona wrote:Sete Clifton wrote:I disagree with the OP. Not because I think anything is super overpowered and needs serious nerfing, but I disagree with the idea that all weapons right now are balanced and are equally usable (in different situations). Coming mostly from ARs, there are definitely certain variants that feel underdeveloped. What I mean is that each variant (full auto, burst, single shot, slow rate) are supposed to have their own "identity" and situational prowess, like the OP was talking about. That being said, they aren't currently balanced each well enough for that to be the case right now. I haven't tried many different types of weapons, but I'm willing to guess this isn't a problem unique to ARs. Basically, I agree we don't need nerfing, but we definitely need balancing. well isn't that why it's still in the beta phase but in any case I'm still semi-new so I've still got a lot to experience so I suppose I'll refine my post some other day.
Don't worry, I totally agree that it's a case of still being in beta. It's just that in your original post, you seemed to be making the argument that all weapons are properly balanced and each equally viable, which I disagree with. Maybe I read it wrong, but in any case, that's the idea that I was posing opposition to.
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Drado Arona
Kirkinen Risk Control Caldari State
64
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Posted - 2013.01.27 00:42:00 -
[26] - Quote
Don Von Hulio wrote:There is no OP weapon. Like ive said a billion times when i was in BF3. Just OP players.
Just finished a corp battle against P.R.O. (Planetary Response Organization i think) and basically they all ran heavy. Not trying to defame them, but if it was truly OP... they should've easily won. But they didn't win.
Chat was also glitching during the battle, probably for them too. And drop beacons weren't showing either.
have you even read 1 word of my post?
Tiel Syysch, Then I suppose lowering the dmg on the lasers and increasing the heat up time (as well as making a time limit on how long you can sustain fire) would work as a "nerf" for lasers. but other then that, that's people abusing (in a good way) their advantages and your disadvantages. But we'll see in the future what happens to these lasers. |
Drado Arona
Kirkinen Risk Control Caldari State
64
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Posted - 2013.01.27 00:45:00 -
[27] - Quote
Drado Arona wrote: Don't worry, I totally agree that it's a case of still being in beta. It's just that in your original post, you seemed to be making the argument that all weapons are properly balanced and each equally viable, which I disagree with. Maybe I read it wrong, but in any case, that's the idea that I was posing opposition to.
Ah, slight misinterpretation I suppose on both our parts. I was just trying to give a sense of nothing in dust is truly overpowered without a drawback. While discussing I suppose lasers are still unreasonably strong with a drawback that's not equal to how powerful It can be. |
Kay High
ZionTCD Legacy Rising
86
|
Posted - 2013.01.27 00:45:00 -
[28] - Quote
I can help answer the MD question: A Mass driver is the only Light weapon that can give AOE (Aria of Effect) and the AOE is large and substantial. The Range of the MD is primarily in the Mid to long range (With practice) The biggest downsides to the MD is the Clip size and Max Ammo capacity. They operate on a Arc and require you to predict where the round will land and at close range you have as much chance to kill yourself as the opponent. People claim that it is OP because if you hit them dead on it can kill Militia in one shot and the splash can kill in 3-4. |
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