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Scheneighnay McBob
Bojo's School of the Trades
1062
|
Posted - 2013.01.25 21:13:00 -
[1] - Quote
The biggest problem with the game, imo, is actually the community. I'm not talking about what we see on the forums- the real problem is further into the game than that.
The problem is the narrow play style of the majority of the players. Probably about 3/4, if not more, of the players are simply frontline grunts on the battlefield, as either assaults with ARs, heavies with HMGs, or triage logis.
This presents several problems:
- Game play can seem bland and repetitive because you're seeing the same thing over and over again- a clump of the same weapons using the same tactics.
- Counters to this "grunt" play style, such as vehicles, can seem overpowered because it's rare to see a specialist who can easily counter the counter.
- Because the majority of the player base sees something as overpowered, it gives a false impression of how an aspect of the game is working because the vast majority of people commenting on it all use the same play style.
If the player base would adapt and specialize more, we would see much better feedback AND far more enjoyable and strategic gameplay. We could also see an "arms cycle", which is similar to an arms race, except players begin to use the counter to the most popular play style, then eventually switch to the counter of that, and so on.
But how do we persuade players to change their ways? First, we should look at the little things that draw them to the grunt play style-
- The favored "grunt gear" such as assault rifles, are cheaper and easier to fit than that of specialists
- The skills and gear needed to be a grunt are available very early, as starting skills and militia gear.
The solution to get players to adapt is not to remove these things, but to expand them.
Perhaps first, there could be an event to put the arms cycle in motion- say, everyone who tries out less common play styles by buying certain skill books/using certain modules enough gets some free SP after the duration of the event. Gear should also be balanced out a bit by adding militia versions of weapons such as mass drivers and laser rifles; the cost and PG/CPU usage of these weapons should also be lowered to, or close to, that of assault rifles.
If players can be encouraged to bring variety to the battlefield, all the better for the game. |
JS Mosby
D3ath D3alers RISE of LEGION
1
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Posted - 2013.01.25 21:27:00 -
[2] - Quote
You won't see much variety in random matches. If CCP were to open the maps up a little and allow corps to field full teams then you would have more variety in game play. When playing with randoms it is the lowest common denominator which rules. Corps able to field full teams would have a greater variety of fits available and would be able to do more tactically when they can specify which fits they want fielded.
So you're 5 klicks from the nearest objective, no problem, send 2 lav teams to opposite sides of the map and have your dropship drop off 5 at the center objective. Lots of room for variety and the use of different tactics in this situation. |
Aqil Aegivan
The Southern Legion
50
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Posted - 2013.01.25 21:41:00 -
[3] - Quote
Scheneighnay McBob wrote:But how do we persuade players to change their ways? First, we should look at the little things that draw them to the grunt play style-
- The favored "grunt gear" such as assault rifles, are cheaper and easier to fit than that of specialists
- The skills and gear needed to be a grunt are available very early, as starting skills and militia gear.
In addition to this there are some further causes to the AR proliferation.
Firstly, when people know that most of the enemy will be running AR then their best choice is to do the same. When the enemy isn't specialized then others don't need to specialize to counter them.
Secondly, when people know most of their teammates will be running AR then their best choice is to do the same. When you can't be sure if anyone can cover your weak points then your best bet is the jack of all trades gun.
Both of these factors are influenced by how early we are in the current skill progression. Most people still only have one weapon into which they've put SP. Vehicle drivers are still mostly in militia hulls and people are still working on basic skills (circuitry, engineering, etc). The same thing happened last wipe.
Don't get me wrong, I run AR because I prefer it. Nerf AR by buffing other things and I'll still run it. I would still hate to see people running nothing but AR at higher levels of play (as unfair as that sounds). I honestly think that we should see if the trend continues as people continue to accrue SP (does anyone have more than 2mil SP yet?) before doing anything as drastic as cutting fitting reqs or giving out bonus SP. |
Tony Calif
Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS.
2002
|
Posted - 2013.01.25 22:15:00 -
[4] - Quote
Assault suit -> Assault rifle. Word association. Change the name of the Assaut rifle to blaster rifle or something. Then you'll see more variation. |
Scheneighnay McBob
Bojo's School of the Trades
1062
|
Posted - 2013.01.25 22:26:00 -
[5] - Quote
Aqil Aegivan wrote:Scheneighnay McBob wrote:But how do we persuade players to change their ways? First, we should look at the little things that draw them to the grunt play style-
- The favored "grunt gear" such as assault rifles, are cheaper and easier to fit than that of specialists
- The skills and gear needed to be a grunt are available very early, as starting skills and militia gear.
In addition to this there are some further causes to the AR proliferation. Firstly, when people know that most of the enemy will be running AR then their best choice is to do the same. When the enemy isn't specialized then others don't need to specialize to counter them. Secondly, when people know most of their teammates will be running AR then their best choice is to do the same. When you can't be sure if anyone can cover your weak points then your best bet is the jack of all trades gun. Both of these factors are influenced by how early we are in the current skill progression. Most people still only have one weapon into which they've put SP. Vehicle drivers are still mostly in militia hulls and people are still working on basic skills (circuitry, engineering, etc). The same thing happened last wipe. Don't get me wrong, I run AR because I prefer it. Nerf AR by buffing other things and I'll still run it. I would still hate to see people running nothing but AR at higher levels of play (as unfair as that sounds). I honestly think that we should see if the trend continues as people continue to accrue SP (does anyone have more than 2mil SP yet?) before doing anything as drastic as cutting fitting reqs or giving out bonus SP. Actually, I think that when the entire other team is running ARs, there are better options to beating them than another AR- mass drivers, for instance, do a number on assault rifle users; laser rifles or shotguns are pretty good against MDs. |
LXicon
Sanmatar Kelkoons Minmatar Republic
54
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Posted - 2013.01.25 22:27:00 -
[6] - Quote
Scheneighnay McBob wrote:...about 3/4, if not more, of the players are simply frontline grunts on the battlefield, as either assaults with ARs, heavies with HMGs, or triage logis....
i actually do agree with most of your OP, but i have to point about that you just said that 3/4 of players are using 3/4 of the suit types. why not go that one step further and say :
"100% of the players are either assault, heavy, logitics or scouts"
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Red Dot 24601-HA
S.e.V.e.N.
36
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Posted - 2013.01.25 22:29:00 -
[7] - Quote
I am not sure what you are talking about OP. I get shot sniper rifles, mass drivers, Lasers, pistols, hmgs, smgs, forge guns, HAV, LAVs, grenades, remote explosives, ad so on...the only thing that hasn't killed me is the Nova Knife. There may be a lot of ARs out there but we have a lot of new players that have not specialized yet. There is variety but it takes an organized group to bring it to the battlefield. |
Aqil Aegivan
The Southern Legion
50
|
Posted - 2013.01.25 22:39:00 -
[8] - Quote
Scheneighnay McBob wrote: Actually, I think that when the entire other team is running ARs, there are better options to beating them than another AR- mass drivers, for instance, do a number on assault rifle users; laser rifles or shotguns are pretty good against MDs.
The question is whether or not people think the way you do. I'm not saying there is no incentive in other strategies, I'm just saying it already kicks in as average SP increases over time. Taking advantage of the relationship between mass drivers, laser rifles and shotguns for example requires more SP than simply skilling AR. |
Knarf Black
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
397
|
Posted - 2013.01.25 22:43:00 -
[9] - Quote
Red Dot 24601-HA wrote:I am not sure what you are talking about OP. I get shot sniper rifles, mass drivers, Lasers, pistols, hmgs, smgs, forge guns, HAV, LAVs, grenades, remote explosives, ad so on...the only thing that hasn't killed me is the Nova Knife. There may be a lot of ARs out there but we have a lot of new players that have not specialized yet. There is variety but it takes an organized group to bring it to the battlefield.
I got killed by a nova knife, once. *hangs head in shame* |
Aighun
Zumari Force Projection Caldari State
666
|
Posted - 2013.01.25 23:46:00 -
[10] - Quote
Knarf Black wrote:Red Dot 24601-HA wrote:I am not sure what you are talking about OP. I get shot sniper rifles, mass drivers, Lasers, pistols, hmgs, smgs, forge guns, HAV, LAVs, grenades, remote explosives, ad so on...the only thing that hasn't killed me is the Nova Knife. There may be a lot of ARs out there but we have a lot of new players that have not specialized yet. There is variety but it takes an organized group to bring it to the battlefield. I got killed by a nova knife, once. *hangs head in shame*
Someone with Nova Knives once attacked me while I was driving a tank.
I thought, "What are you doing!?! those silly knives aren't even making a scratch. Ha! watch me kill this insane joker... "
But he moved so qjuickly and got in so close that none of the turrets could track him or get a line of fire on him. I couldn't even run him over though I really wanted to... and because I got distracted trying to kill the annoying knifer someone snuck up behind me with a forge gun and blew up my tank. |
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Scheneighnay McBob
Bojo's School of the Trades
1062
|
Posted - 2013.01.25 23:48:00 -
[11] - Quote
LXicon wrote:Scheneighnay McBob wrote:...about 3/4, if not more, of the players are simply frontline grunts on the battlefield, as either assaults with ARs, heavies with HMGs, or triage logis.... i actually do agree with most of your OP, but i have to point about that you just said that 3/4 of players are using 3/4 of the suit types. why not go that one step further and say : "100% of the players are either assault, heavy, logitics or scouts" Think more about what roles I'm talking about- 3/4 charge aimlessly at the enemy with weapon/suit combos that are best for charging aimlessly at the enemy.
How many shotgun assaults do you see? What about logis that work with installations? etc. |
Sobriety Denied
Universal Allies Inc.
433
|
Posted - 2013.01.25 23:53:00 -
[12] - Quote
it's like a real platoon, most of the troops are standard rifle men with %10 special weapons |
Scheneighnay McBob
Bojo's School of the Trades
1062
|
Posted - 2013.01.26 00:00:00 -
[13] - Quote
Sobriety Denied wrote:it's like a real platoon, most of the troops are standard rifle men with %10 special weapons Enjoyment of the game > realism. |
Sobriety Denied
Universal Allies Inc.
433
|
Posted - 2013.01.26 00:03:00 -
[14] - Quote
Scheneighnay McBob wrote:Sobriety Denied wrote:it's like a real platoon, most of the troops are standard rifle men with %10 special weapons Enjoyment of the game > realism. i'm sure the laser guys will be switching to AR soon.. no fault of theres really.. when it's the average cod player with a stranglehold on developement that wants an AR based game.,. idk.. he's probably going to get it. i use masshole and sometimes fallback on the trusty AR. i'm sure i'll be going back to AR once they have mothballed the MD with nerfs
i punished my KDR with 2 weeks of using the breach rifle just for the sake of being different, in the end tho seeing my KDR suffer wasnt worth my sense of diversity |
Telcontar Dunedain
Imperfects Negative-Feedback
328
|
Posted - 2013.01.26 00:41:00 -
[15] - Quote
These AR nerf threads are cringe worthy.
Ask yourself truly whether you WANT the really good AR players you know using Laser Rifles instead?
How about Mass Drivers?
Have you actually been in a match against someone like God-Nova using either of these weapons?
Hint - it's not the weapon that makes the player.
How about having just having more Laser Rifle in a match? 40% LR? 40% MD? Does that sound like fun gameplay?...
Lol.
The QQ in the forums when we had Laser Only Days and Mass Driver Only Days was pretty funny.
Be very careful what you ask for. You might get it.
TLDR; we are all waiting for different weapons, we should see some AR like weapons in the next few builds that will provide some fun variation. SoonGäó |
Iron Wolf Saber
BetaMax.
2867
|
Posted - 2013.01.26 00:43:00 -
[16] - Quote
Tony Calif wrote:Assault suit -> Assault rifle. Word association. Change the name of the Assaut rifle to blaster rifle or something. Then you'll see more variation.
Plasma Rifle. Its a plasma rifle. Gallente don't use hybrid on small scale and in all technicalities blasters are plasma weaponry using magnetic cores to contain the detonated shell. |
Cosorvin
DUST University Ivy League
45
|
Posted - 2013.01.26 00:48:00 -
[17] - Quote
the classes people play is entirely based on their playstyle, and you can't force people to play things they don't like and aren't good at.
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DigiOps
DUST University Ivy League
85
|
Posted - 2013.01.26 00:59:00 -
[18] - Quote
Personally, I'd rather see everyone running standard assault than more than half the team sniping. I run into that a couple times every day. A whole team of snipers getting redlined while the enemy MCC has barely a scratch. At least if everyone is using ARs then they can contribute a bit better.
Me? I'm doing it to farm isk and boost my light weapon sharp shooting and practice fundamental FPS skills. Dust is the first FPS I've played in a good long time. I'm rusty and I have no idea what I want to specialize in yet. Who knows? Maybe I'll end up being a pilot.
Starter fits don't cost a thing which is part of what makes using them a bit more popular amongst newer players (or at least I would think). Maybe if those starter fits had a set limit on quantity, we'd see more variation on the field. Just my opinion, though. |
Scheneighnay McBob
Bojo's School of the Trades
1062
|
Posted - 2013.01.26 01:29:00 -
[19] - Quote
Telcontar Dunedain wrote:These AR nerf threads are cringe worthy.
Ask yourself truly whether you WANT the really good AR players you know using Laser Rifles instead?
How about Mass Drivers?
Have you actually been in a match against someone like God-Nova using either of these weapons?
Hint - it's not the weapon that makes the player.
How about having just having more Laser Rifle in a match? 40% LR? 40% MD? Does that sound like fun gameplay?...
Lol.
The QQ in the forums when we had Laser Only Days and Mass Driver Only Days was pretty funny.
Be very careful what you ask for. You might get it.
TLDR; we are all waiting for different weapons, we should see some AR like weapons in the next few builds that will provide some fun variation. SoonGäó How is this a nerf thread? This is an encouragement thread, that only involves slight buffs, if anything. If someone legitimately IS really good with an AR, they'll probably stick to it. The problem is that most of the player base never tries mass drivers, laser rifles, shotguns, etc. |
Telcontar Dunedain
Imperfects Negative-Feedback
328
|
Posted - 2013.01.26 01:38:00 -
[20] - Quote
Scheneighnay McBob wrote:Telcontar Dunedain wrote:These AR nerf threads are cringe worthy.
Ask yourself truly whether you WANT the really good AR players you know using Laser Rifles instead?
How about Mass Drivers?
Have you actually been in a match against someone like God-Nova using either of these weapons?
Hint - it's not the weapon that makes the player.
How about having just having more Laser Rifle in a match? 40% LR? 40% MD? Does that sound like fun gameplay?...
Lol.
The QQ in the forums when we had Laser Only Days and Mass Driver Only Days was pretty funny.
Be very careful what you ask for. You might get it.
TLDR; we are all waiting for different weapons, we should see some AR like weapons in the next few builds that will provide some fun variation. SoonGäó How is this a nerf thread? This is an encouragement thread, that only involves slight buffs, if anything. If someone legitimately IS really good with an AR, they'll probably stick to it. The problem is that most of the player base never tries mass drivers, laser rifles, shotguns, etc.
That's your uninformed opinion about what the population does.
Where's your proof?
Most of our guys have tried almost everything. |
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Torr Wrath
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
58
|
Posted - 2013.01.26 01:46:00 -
[21] - Quote
Scheneighnay McBob wrote:The biggest problem with the game, imo, is actually the community.
You could have stopped there really..
;) |
Rugman91
Deep Space Republic
143
|
Posted - 2013.01.26 01:48:00 -
[22] - Quote
I believe this problem comes more from the lack of complex game modes rather than a flaw of the player base |
Blue DeVille
Tritan-Industries Legacy Rising
25
|
Posted - 2013.01.26 01:57:00 -
[23] - Quote
https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=53362&find=unread |
ghgfggggggbvc
Doomheim
5
|
Posted - 2013.01.26 01:58:00 -
[24] - Quote
i remember when i first started playing heavy i got bored of using AR's with it and switched over to the militia forge gun, went round one shot-ing anything unfortunate to end up in my sights.:D
i've even tried piloting dropships. it really fun but its quite hard to get the hang of as well. At this point in the game its stupid to start demanding all the stuff you see in the trailers with the big vehicle clashes. those things cost hundreds of thousands of isk just to buy and give a decent fit, and thats not including the price of the skill books you need to use the decent vehicles. and then you have to sink huge amounts of sp into those skills, remember there's a skill cap you can only earn so much sp through battles in a day. give things a couple of weeks then they're going to get more interesting |
Barnabas Wrex
Tritan-Industries Legacy Rising
149
|
Posted - 2013.01.26 05:09:00 -
[25] - Quote
This game needs to be treated like a beautiful woman; treat it with respect and patience, and it will open up to you when the time is ready.
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Thranx1231
CowTek
90
|
Posted - 2013.01.26 07:06:00 -
[26] - Quote
This thread is premature. Wait a month or two. Things will begin to level out.
The Vets only have a couple week advantage on SP. Those willing to part with some AUR will have a little more. The real advantage is we have all tried using the AR for everything. The result being they did the Wang Hammer Of Doom on the AR and now we know you have to use other weapons.
The thing you are complaining about; the noobs don't know that, yet. They will. They will watch a Forge Gunner or HMG supported by a Logi Bro clear the area in front of them. Hold onto objectives. Turn back the Red tide and stop the HAV in its actual tracks. They will want to do that as well.
They will want to snipe. Then Logi Bro. Then run a faster Scout hacker. Maybe even the Fastest Scout Hacker Ever.
But, you must give them time to come to grips with DUST. The ones that only want a strict AR based FPS will leave. The ones that only want FTP will leave. The ones that cannot come to grips with DUST, nor understand the significance of EVE will leave.
We will progress. Those with more SP will progress more as well. The noobs will become Early Vets. The Early Vets will become Mature Vets and summer will allow even more noobs to join the fray. Then specials are promotions or new maps will bring more noobs and maybe even bring some back to DUST.
The noobs will use ARs. Until they don't.
Until they find the play style that really does fit the way they like to play.
DUST will let them find it.
And we will kill them. For ISK. For WP.
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ghgfggggggbvc
Doomheim
5
|
Posted - 2013.01.26 11:02:00 -
[27] - Quote
Well said |
Don Von Hulio
UnReaL.
90
|
Posted - 2013.01.26 11:04:00 -
[28] - Quote
I have a near infinite supply of AV grenades that say you are wrong. |
Scheneighnay McBob
Bojo's School of the Trades
1062
|
Posted - 2013.01.26 16:13:00 -
[29] - Quote
Telcontar Dunedain wrote:Scheneighnay McBob wrote:Telcontar Dunedain wrote:These AR nerf threads are cringe worthy.
Ask yourself truly whether you WANT the really good AR players you know using Laser Rifles instead?
How about Mass Drivers?
Have you actually been in a match against someone like God-Nova using either of these weapons?
Hint - it's not the weapon that makes the player.
How about having just having more Laser Rifle in a match? 40% LR? 40% MD? Does that sound like fun gameplay?...
Lol.
The QQ in the forums when we had Laser Only Days and Mass Driver Only Days was pretty funny.
Be very careful what you ask for. You might get it.
TLDR; we are all waiting for different weapons, we should see some AR like weapons in the next few builds that will provide some fun variation. SoonGäó How is this a nerf thread? This is an encouragement thread, that only involves slight buffs, if anything. If someone legitimately IS really good with an AR, they'll probably stick to it. The problem is that most of the player base never tries mass drivers, laser rifles, shotguns, etc. That's your uninformed opinion about what the population does. Where's your proof? Most of our guys have tried almost everything. You're an organised corp that obviously encourages these things. I'm talking about blueberries here. Whenever I see something like a mass driver, it's almost always in the hands of someone running in an organised squad. |
Scheneighnay McBob
Bojo's School of the Trades
1062
|
Posted - 2013.01.26 16:16:00 -
[30] - Quote
Don Von Hulio wrote:I have a near infinite supply of AV grenades that say you are wrong. Yet all day yesterday, I never lost an LAV, or died when I was in one. |
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