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Oxskull Duncarino
Shadow Company HQ
165
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Posted - 2013.01.23 20:45:00 -
[1] - Quote
I think it's ok. As you advance you skills to the point of being able to use proto, you passive skills allow you to utilise the weapon better and take advantage of it's slightly higher damage. On top of that, you are able to start specing into AR proficiency to give the passive damage increase. All this combines to give a very nice edge against your opponents. This top tier edge should be expensive. Something that you might pull out once or twice at match at the present payout grade. Once we start getting ISK flooding in from EvE then it'll become more viable for those players with the skills to fully take advantage of it. |
Oxskull Duncarino
Shadow Company HQ
165
|
Posted - 2013.01.23 22:28:00 -
[2] - Quote
Tiel Syysch wrote:Oxskull Duncarino wrote:I think it's ok. As you advance you skills to the point of being able to use proto, you passive skills allow you to utilise the weapon better and take advantage of it's slightly higher damage. On top of that, you are able to start specing into AR proficiency to give the passive damage increase. All this combines to give a very nice edge against your opponents. This top tier edge should be expensive. Something that you might pull out once or twice at match at the present payout grade. Once we start getting ISK flooding in from EvE then it'll become more viable for those players with the skills to fully take advantage of it. Did you look at the spreadsheet or read the numbers I posted? I don't mean that insultingly, I mean honestly what you're saying doesn't make sense in the face of the facts. It's true that your passive abilities develop more as you push toward those prototype weapons, but it still remains that using what passive abilities you have unlocked in doing so and applying them to lower tier weapons results in practically the same performance as they would had you equipped the prototype weapon you now have access to. You have reason to upgrade your skills, but no reason to upgrade what weapon you use. In equipping that higher level gun, you're sacrificing CPU and PG, which equates to you sacrificing something like HP, so much in fact that the difference in amount of HP you could fit with a lower weapon outweighs the amount of damage done with a higher tier weapon. You would win a fight against someone using a proto weapon if you used a standard weapon purely because you out-HP their almost negligible higher damage. Perseus Gallento wrote:Try recalcing the values using damage per second taking efficiency into account:
DPS = (Damage * RPM * efficiency rating)/60. I'm not aware of if efficiency ratings change per tier of weapon, and if they don't, it doesn't change anything. The comparisons were all across the normal variants of each gun across std/adv/pro tiers. They're the same guns with the same firing mechanics, and there's hardly any performance difference. Yes, I did look at your speed sheet and It's very well done. I'd meant to say that at the beginning of my last post but forgot it as I was in a rush. Good work. Due to being in a rush I purely looked at the AR and scanned over the rest.
I get the fact that in a straight up fight, the one using the basic AR/SMG/HMG could have an advantage over someone else in the same mid level suit using a proto AR/SMG/HMG using the same sidearm and equipment. But, at proto suit level, if , the skills are up to speed, you can have maxed out armour and shields by dropping equipment and sidearm if needed for CPU and PG, and equip the proto AR/SMG/HMG which has a better accuracy over the basic. So at that late stage then the accuracy and slight damage increase will have the upper hand in an exact duel.
The spreed sheet shows that there is very little difference(no difference for some other low RPM weapon types) in ammo requirement to take out the same target. It's rare though where a battle is both parties start firing at the exact same moment with the same accuracy. It's having a slight edge will be worth the money when you have a suit to properly run it. Having a few bullets more left over can be the decider in a running battle. They hit empty, both of ye have a squeak of armour left, and you still have a few rounds left. We've all been there and increasing your chance of being upright afterwards is always worth the extra ISK.
As per the lack of any real difference with both the sniper and pistol, you have to factor in the head shot multiplier. The damage potential gap increases. Of course, this can be applied to the high RPM weapons above too. If someone can't use them to their max potential then yes, they should stick to the basic/advanced as it'll be wasting ISK for them to go to higher.
I'm not trying to shoot down your post, just having a bit of a debate as to whether the weapons really need a damage increase. I don't want to see a great difference as I think the higher level weapons need to be about a bit of an edge, not a big gap. |
Oxskull Duncarino
Shadow Company HQ
165
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Posted - 2013.01.24 21:35:00 -
[3] - Quote
Tiel Syysch wrote:Oxskull Duncarino wrote:But, at proto suit level, if , the skills are up to speed, you can have maxed out armour and shields by dropping equipment and sidearm if needed for CPU and PG That's part of the sacrificing needing to be made that I mentioned. Losing your equipment or sidearm when you would otherwise have it makes you less effective in a number of cases. This largely depends on things like how often you use them, but if you have to get rid of your nanohives? You're now dependent on other people for ammo and can't readily get it right when you want it. If you can't get it, you've sacrificed long-term potential, when you're now running around with no ammo, for in a number of cases negligible increased killing power. Oxskull Duncarino wrote:The spreed sheet shows that there is very little difference(no difference for some other low RPM weapon types) in ammo requirement to take out the same target. It's rare though where a battle is both parties start firing at the exact same moment with the same accuracy. It's not really so much about looking at it as a you vs someone else perspective and comparing having that edge. It's more along the lines of (let's grab an example, max SP AR shooting at someone with 400 hp), you pick up your standard gun, you'd have killed him in 11 bullets. You change to advanced gun, find him again, this time you kill him in 10 bullets. That's kinda cool, but really, one bullet difference with an AR is 80 milliseconds of firing time. Some people won't notice the difference between that and lag. But anyway, you've now got enough money for your sexy prototype gun. You put it on, find the same poor guy with 400 hp, and you kill him in... 10 bullets. You've just upgraded, potentially sacrificing fitting space, wasting a ton more ISK, and you kill no better. That's the problem that's a result of the damage flattening. What reason is there to equip a higher gun if in many cases it gives you no benefit, especially if on a number of suits you have to sacrifice things in order to fit it? I'm not sure where to rate a "bonus" to upgrading like accuracy, either, because that'd be on a case-by-case basis, I think accuracy only really affects hipfiring (I haven't noticed bullets not going where I aim when zoomed in, even on militia rifles).
The sacrifice you mentioned before was based on a hit point difference, not a lack of equipment or sidearm, hence the reason I broke it down. I was finally into Proto assault suit in the last week of the last build, and had both a nanohive and a nano injector in the equipment slots, while running with purely complex modules and an Officer AR. My side arm was at least a basic SMG but it might have been higher, I can't remember now. At that stage if you haven't spent you SP in a way to allow this Proto build then you could drop one equipment and still have your nanohives. If that's still not enough then either stick close to your team or stop over reaching the setup.
You've already done a spread sheet for this build with the flattened damage difference. Try doing it for the last build.
The maths below doesn't factor in specific damage resistance or head shot multipliers:
Basic AR at 30 dam attacking a 400hp target = 14 bolts to cause fatality Proto AR at 36.5 dam attacking a 400hp target = 11 bolts to cause fatality > 3 bolt diff. compared to the present 1 bolt diff.
Basic AR at 30 dam attacking a 1000hp target = 34 bolts to cause fatality Proto AR at 36.5 dam attacking a 1000hp target = 28 bolts to cause fatality >6 bolt diff. compared to the present 3 bolt diff.
By your reasoning, if one bolt difference isn't noticeable at a ~750 rpm fire rate, then having a difference of 3 bolts max. isn't going to be noticed. Yet, that difference was very much noticeable. What do ya think?
Mobius Wyvern "Yes, the initial flattening smacks of something done to achieve better balance in High-Sec matchmaking, where you shouldn't be using your Proto gear anyway due to the expense involved. It really does seem like most of these people calling for nerfs left and right are driven entirely by this irrational fear of pubstomping, which doesn't make any sense in this game.
Sure, you can bring in the big stuff, but if you die even once you're going negative for the whole match.
This is NO need to work game design around this irrational and unfounded fear. I'm in favor of opening the damage gaps back up, and even buffing Proto suits back up so that you at least get some HP bonus for upgrading instead of just slots and fitting."
The nerf isn't that great. Ye all have looked at one set of figures and gone running out the door without doing a proper analysis of the facts in front of ye. These weapons are very much viable in the right situation. I agree that they shouldn't be used in High-Sec unless you're happy with the potential ISK loss. I'm somewhat repeating myself, but anyway, they're meant for a use in a high value mission situation where they very well might be supplied by the contractor to give the edge.
Also, the Proto Assault suit can be a beast when you're ready for it. It does not need HP buffing. I can't speak as to the other classes. |
Oxskull Duncarino
Shadow Company HQ
165
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Posted - 2013.01.26 15:44:00 -
[4] - Quote
I did up a bullet by bullet spreadsheet so that it can be seen more closely as to the difference. Dropsuits don't come in 300, 400,500,600, HP groups. There's variation across the board.
In the main It's a 1 bolt difference between each of the rifles, from basic to advanced, and from advanced to prototype. This gap widens to a 2 bolt difference at higher level HP armors as the edge the higher rifle gives becomes more apparent. This is an edge that is grand in my view. A Duster will not. should not, utilise this edge until they can. Everything we do in SP allocation is about giving very small edges to each skill. The same should be for the weapons.
Assault rifle bullet by bullet damage
I'm adding in the other weapon groups later |
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