DUST Search - [Updated] Full Removal of the SP Cap

CCP Cmdr Wang wrote:

I would like to explain the reasons on why we are testing the removal of the SP cap and keep you all better informed.

The development team has been listening intently to the tons of feedback from you guys on the skill system, in particular the current skill cap implementation.

Our original aims with the skill cap were to ensure players progressed through the skill tree at a steady pace, to dis-incentivize 24/7 grinding and to maintain a manageable gap between casual and hardcore players. After trying out a couple of different approaches, none of which were satisfactory, we have realized that the skill cap introduces too many other unacceptable compromises and we have decided to take a leaf out of AlexanderGÇÖs book and just cut the Gordian knot and remove the skill cap altogether. Removing the skill cap opens us up to the risk of not meeting the aims stated above, so we have tuned down reward levels a little to reduce that risk.

We believe that these changes will go a long way towards alleviating the problems that you guys have been drawing to our attention, but we will continue to listen to your feedback, monitor progression data and make further tweaks as necessary.

Finally, we are not removing the SP cap today, and will allow time for the community to speak their minds on this first.

We look forward to hearing from you!


Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 1 post(s)
Mars El'Theran Red Rogue Squadron Heart 0f Darkness 52	Posted - 2013.01.22 12:05:00 - [1] - Quote CCP Cmdr Wang wrote: I would like to explain the reasons on why we are testing the removal of the SP cap and keep you all better informed. The development team has been listening intently to the tons of feedback from you guys on the skill system, in particular the current skill cap implementation. Our original aims with the skill cap were to ensure players progressed through the skill tree at a steady pace, to dis-incentivize 24/7 grinding and to maintain a manageable gap between casual and hardcore players. After trying out a couple of different approaches, none of which were satisfactory, we have realized that the skill cap introduces too many other unacceptable compromises and we have decided to take a leaf out of AlexanderGÇÖs book and just cut the Gordian knot and remove the skill cap altogether. Removing the skill cap opens us up to the risk of not meeting the aims stated above, so we have tuned down reward levels a little to reduce that risk. We believe that these changes will go a long way towards alleviating the problems that you guys have been drawing to our attention, but we will continue to listen to your feedback, monitor progression data and make further tweaks as necessary. Finally, we are not removing the SP cap today, and will allow time for the community to speak their minds on this first. We look forward to hearing from you! You seem to be making a lot of mistakes today. First the $10 each Militia items; then the removal of SP caps so basement dwellers can cap their SP within 6 months to a year, instead of the 5 it's supposed to take. Honestly, I'm not happy with the direction Dust is taking. I might have spent money to get things here and there before, but this change and that other mean I will likely consign it to the trash bin. You can make gameplay as good as you want; no amount of design is going to make it worth playing with this sort of design.
Mars El'Theran Red Rogue Squadron Heart 0f Darkness 52	Posted - 2013.01.22 13:02:00 - [2] - Quote Thing about the Cap is that it stabilizes SP advancement for all players to some extent. Removing that cap satisfies 'instant gratification players' and punishes players who haven't the time to take advantage of it to the same degree. This is not a solution. I am not going to log in and play for 12 hours a day, Saturday and Sunday, and--with this--even if I did, it wouldn't matter. I'd fall behind so fast I wouldn't be able to compete within a week and I'd be dying on the battlefield without any effort on the part of those taking extreme advantage of it. What I feel when I hit the SP Cap: Relief. It means I have managed to get my SP for the day and I no longer have to worry about it; I am at least for one day, able to keep up with the masses. I can deal with that, and will accept that eventually I will be outmatched on almost every field consistently because of it. I don't necessarily like it, but I will deal with it if I have to; I can still have fun to some extent, even if not all the time. It isn't fun dying repetitively to players who can't be killed because they are so far advanced in skills and gear as to make them all but invulnerable to a lesser skilled and equipped player. I have encountered this; it does happen. The greater that gap in SP, the more it will happen. Granted, I've been pointing this out since early beta and no one seems to have listened. If not a player without the time, then a new player without the skill and equipment. Back to $100 Dropsuit fits for beginners. Not exactly what I'd suggest for an NPE, but do as you wish I guess. They'll die repetitively, and you'll offer them $100 dropsuits so they don't have to spend all their ISK on that instead of skill books just to play at all. Pardon me for pointing it out, but that is about the poorest design choice you could make, aside from just charging them $100 to access the game and then offering them nothing for it, while allowing them to get slaughtered by 'veteran' players. Militia BPO fits are only really useful for more easily and quickly gaining SP and ISK to buy skills. Personally, I have yet to be able to afford to fit more than Militia items most of the time. For example, it takes ~4-5 matches just to pay for a Logistics dropsuit skillbook; if you account for 10-20 losses in each match, at ~4K* per loss for militia fit dropsuits, then you are losing 40-80 K per match in fitting, which means it will take you between 5 and 23 matches to pay for that skillbook. * I have no idea; estimating based on the one 618 ISK Militia item cost I recall. Just an example. Assuming a minimum match payout of 100K and max of 150K for this purpose as that seems to be about average now, though less than 100K is possible. Sure, you can play more intelligently, and you can also just hide in the MCC for a time. Playing more intelligently typically means not fighting, trying to hack without risk, and/or providing Spawn points and Ammo for squad mates while avoiding combat. Your game design is already suffering; why would you want to make it worse? Clinically speaking, the mechanics of battle are mostly okay, but the game is suffering in other ways. This is one of them. SP limits need to stay, else a few players will cap out with continuous play, and they will dominate everyone else. The fact they can dominate simply because of SP and gear is a flaw, but only in how truly invulnerable they can become to the average player. You haven't accounted for new players after launch, and in the projected future following that. They will not be able to compete, and will be dissatisfied and frustrated with the game in large part. That may be somewhat acceptable if they have other things to do, and it isn't entirely unlike EVE in that regard. This isn't EVE, there is no industry and no player market. There is suggested to be PvE available sometime after launch, and there is PvP. There is your first flaw. The dropsuits you listed in the Militia BPO update are type I btw, not Militia Dropsuits. That price hike would be almost appropriate for them. Your Militia Dropsuits are the other four. This makes me wonder if you are even actually paying attention to game design. Honestly, I wonder if anyone is, aside from us of course. You lock all the update topics and prevent discussion regarding them, (Sony?), aside from in general discussion and feedback and requests. Feedback and Requests and General Discussion seem to be only partially observed. I doubt you'll even read this. I'm disappointed.
Mars El'Theran Red Rogue Squadron Heart 0f Darkness 52	Posted - 2013.01.22 13:14:00 - [3] - Quote Jason Pearson wrote: The SP System is very easy to figure out tbh. Let's imagine we've just reset and they've introduced a new system based on this idea. 22/01/2013 The SP "Pool" is currently at 28,000 SP (+25% with Booster) 23/01/2013 The SP "Pool" is currently at 56,000 SP (+25% with Booster) 24/01/2013 The SP "Pool" is currently at 84,000 SP (+25% with Booster) So you can see everyday the Pool raises by 28,000 SP, this never gets reset and doesn't matter if its a new player or a vet, the pool will be the same. In 365 days the pool will be 102,200,000 SP, now ofcourse this is a large amount and probably wouldn't be that much, but the point is, everyday the pool gets larger and larger, keeping the no lifers at bay but still allowing players to catch up if they've been off on holiday for two weeks. Thoughts? To point out the obvious, 102 Million SP would take you years to achieve in EVE; it is no small amount. I also fail to grasp exactly what you mean by this pool thing.. wait, I'm guessing maybe.. (i.e: everyone can play to this limit? whether new player or vet?) 102 m is a typo or error; it would be 10.2 m which is probably less than it should be. I haven't bothered to check how much you can cap in a day honestly, (I've only done it twice; that was enough time investment and effort for awhile), but I'm fairly certain it is more than that. Max SP gain in EVE iirc would give you that passively in ~157 days, meaning it would take you more than twice as long to skill up under similar rules here. edit: Not agreeing or disagreeing.
Mars El'Theran Red Rogue Squadron Heart 0f Darkness 52	Posted - 2013.01.22 13:16:00 - [4] - Quote Vanda-Kon wrote: I love that people with an active life don't even want no lifers to have the smallest glimpse of reward or happiness. You've got your reward, your full life. Go be busy. If by full life you mean the requirement to invest most of my time working just to put food on the table and pay the rent, while not having children or even a wife, and not having many friends or the money or time to go out an do things, then I think you've just stuck your foot in your mouth. (i.e: **** off; you don't have a clue what you are talking about)
Mars El'Theran Red Rogue Squadron Heart 0f Darkness 52	Posted - 2013.01.22 14:07:00 - [5] - Quote Aqil Aegivan wrote: CCP Cmdr Wang wrote: the skill cap introduces too many other unacceptable compromises Does anyone know what Wang is talking about here. I'd love to know what terrible compromises are being used to justify this awful decision. No, not a clue. I might assume he means alternative mechanics to those current, or trying to satisfy all groups, or something, but I'd probably be wrong. Either way, he just went extreme right wing and gave it all to the players who have all the time. Assume I work 8 hours a day, 5 days a week, sleep and average of 6.5 hours a day, spend about 1.5 hours a day cleaning, eating, cooking, etc.. and require approximately 2 hours to drive to work and back, plus 0.5 hours a day to shower, brush my teeth, etc.. how much time does that leave me on the average work day for Dust if I do nothing else? A: 5.5 hours, if I really want to spend all of my free time on Dust, and I really should be sleeping more.
Mars El'Theran Red Rogue Squadron Heart 0f Darkness 52	Posted - 2013.01.22 14:40:00 - [6] - Quote Deveshi wrote: Mars El'Theran wrote: Vanda-Kon wrote: I love that people with an active life don't even want no lifers to have the smallest glimpse of reward or happiness. You've got your reward, your full life. Go be busy. If by full life you mean the requirement to invest most of my time working just to put food on the table and pay the rent, while not having children or even a wife, and not having many friends or the money or time to go out an do things, then I think you've just stuck your foot in your mouth. (i.e: **** off; you don't have a clue what you are talking about) I'm a firm believer in making your own life. If you aren't happy with your current one then do something about it. At some point in your life you have made some sort of choice that has ended with you being where you are now. It's simple causality. Many of us on the otherhand made choices in life that we are happy with. These choices allow us to have free time and do the things we enjoy such as play Dust 514. I see no justifiable reason to damage this game with an SP cap simply because you made poor life choices which you are now clearly regretting. Thanks again for removing the SP cap Cmdr Wang. You assume my life choices are poor, and you defend people who claim I have a full life because I work for a living? News Flash: This just in; Working for a living is a poor life choice. wtf Do you honestly think people can just change their circumstance so easily? Shall I just wave a magic wand and make a good woman appear--who is interested in me--and increase my yearly income to about $90000 so I can afford to have a family and buy a house? Just fyi, only so many people can earn so much, and there isn't that much money to go around with high paid persons earning enough to provide much better quality of living for hundreds, if not thousands, or hundreds of thousands. The vast majority of global income is drawn into finite points. It is not spread around. I work as an Electrician, and only recently started doing that. It might amount to something some day, but it certainly hasn't yet. It would cost me nearly one quarter of my income just to finance and insure a newer vehicle. Maybe a little more than. Rent is about a third. This has nothing to do with poor life choices, and everything to do with a lack of opportunity and fiscal assets to make things happen. Even provided I didn't have any bad habits at all, I would still be moving forward under low steam. I waste some money, it is true, but I waste it because I'm attempting to at least enjoy something of this life I've been given. Mostly good food actually, rather than eating KD which wouldn't get me through my work day anyway. I consume an average of 3-4K calories a day and I weigh in at 184 pounds at 6'1" If I didn't at least eat good food once in awhile, I'd be suffering from exhaustion most days. I'm already suffering from exhaustion, but it has more to do with limited sleep than food I think. I also smoke; have for 25 years; terrible habit, but not so easy to quit for some as others. Also, waste of money. I don't hesitate to admit my flaws; I never pretended otherwise. Calling people out for not having the time, and claiming working was a reward is ignorant. People work because they have to; if they didn't, they'd have the time if they wanted to invest it. Believe it or not, someone better off than me--by a bit--and married to an equally well off spouse, raising children, will still have limited time and energy, and their life will not be so rewarding as suggested. Most people don't even have the time to invest on spending with their children, and are mostly investing it in providing for them, even when they are well off. How is that rewarding? ..particularly when the majority of what you do more readily benefits someone else, or provides them with things you don't have yourself, and likely could not afford? Myself for example: I have literally assisted with the install of multiple security systems, prewired and finished thousands of homes with cable, telecommunications and audio systems, security wiring, and both roughed in and installed central vacuum systems in as many or more than that. I have, as well, wired and finished electrical for as many as 40 homes and done quite a few Reno's. That's just in the last 6 years, and I don't yet have a home of my own and couldn't possibly think of affording one. Do you think my job is unnecessary? That I made a poor life choice? In this context, do you think it is rewarding enough in itself, and that I should make way for those who don't have to invest their time on such things, and can sit at home on a PS3? That I am undeserving somehow, of having something to do with my spare time, when I want to, without having to suffer from the iniquity of limited SP when compared to others who have been playing as long as I have, if more than? I don't.
Mars El'Theran Red Rogue Squadron Heart 0f Darkness 52	Posted - 2013.01.23 00:55:00 - [7] - Quote Xavier Hastings wrote: I actually support no cap. People will play as much as they will play and that is that. No need to punish them. Besides, early players will not get trampled on... If they fix the matchmaking system. I'm afraid that isn't possible. The design of Dust follows EVE, and matchmaking is planet and district based. This isn't COD or BF where players can have ranked matches based on a simple number. I'm glad of that actually, but it does tend to involve some difficulty in certain areas. Closest thing to matchmaking you're going to get, (unless something changes drastically, in a bad way), is avoiding planets where higher SP players choose to play.
Mars El'Theran Red Rogue Squadron Heart 0f Darkness 52	Posted - 2013.01.23 01:13:00 - [8] - Quote This is actually really simple to calculate projections from. Assume 2500 Sp per match with no cap; assume 15 minutes per match; assume 3 matches per hour reasonably speaking; assume 12 hours a day continuous play by certain members of the player base. That amounts to 90000 + Passive SP + Boosters per day. Now assume that they will do this for roughly 328 days out of a given year, (most likely "no lifer" time investment - quoting them). That amounts to roughly 29520000 + Passive SP per year, provided they follow that simple formula. Doesn't sound really bad from that perspective, but what of the ones that invest more time? Also, I have no idea how much passive SP is, and boosters and excess rewards have not been considered. Lets assume instead, that an individual chooses to invest 16 hours a day, 7 days a week, 353 days a year. That would instead amount to 2500 * 3 * 16 * 353 = 42360000 + Passive SP + Boosters per year. It's not 102 million a year with the base calculation, but you could make it roughly 55 m with just the addition of an active booster. Meanwhile I will likely net more or less passive SP, + some Passive Boosters, + roughly 30 hours a year if I'm interested. My interest is dwindling, or I might suggest I'd play more than that, but I'm not even convinced I'll pay the $20 for the game past Beta anymore. 55m is roughly twice what the average EVE player with decent skill optimization can expect to earn in a given year. Slightly more actually, and that costs ~$15 a month to maintain.